Checkride - My story.

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
Well finally got signed off for the checkride (this time for all the right reasons! - go search for my postings from last year if you choose)

Anywho, got through the Oral portion on Saturday with "excellent job" the wx wasn't condusive for flying. So we scheduled for today (April 17th). Got the thing started (1978 Piper Warrior) eventually - DPE helped he knows it's a bear to start for some reason. Did the run up and everything. Taxied to the runway. Waited for the Bonanza to land (he was left base when I got to the line - I could've gone but I was so nervous I didn't want to screw it up for him) he landed way long had to back taxi so I waited. (Had PLENTY of time for checklist and I totally forgot to use it!) Short field was my first (put in two notches of flaps) taxi out and rev up the engine with full brakes go about 300 ft and he pulls the throttle and says "Engine died - do you know why?" I look and say "Shoot fuel pump on" He said "Too late - would you like to continue" I agreed. We go and start on the xc and I point out my first landmark. He says "Fine - wx is too bad to keep going this way head South and find an airport in this direction" So I look on my sectional and put the first one in the GPS it's SSW of our current direction he says "It goes West and that's no good - try again" Find one and he says that's good. Do some VOR tracking. Climb up to 3500 ft and get to choose between slow flight or steep turns. I rocked those out really well. (he made me do both of them) on to instrument/hood work and knocked those out. Emergency decent to an airport was fine....getting down to 600 ft when you start out at 3500 midfield took alot of work! Landed fairly uneventfully at my home airport and my CFI said "Well how did it go?" I said "Well it could've been better if I remembered the fuel pump" he was like :sigh: So all I have to do is get one more signoff that my landings/takeoffs are good. Presumably my CFI will go out to make sure I don't lose my mind on those but that's pretty easy to clean up. I was quite pleased with myself that I didn't let the "early" failure get me down. My husband was like "HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE FUEL PUMP?!"

The way I look at is I could've mucked up something else and my CFI could go out and do it but there's nothing he could say anymore that'd help me. So we'll go fly and make sure my takeoff/landings are good and I'll pay the DPE $200 for the retest. Stay tuned...

(Wonder how many postings I'll get on this one!)
 
Glad you posted. Better luck next time, just don't forget the dang checklist!!!
 
I fly a cherokee, and there have been times I've forgotten to turn the fuel pump on for take-off. I would have pointed out to the DPE that the warrior has a fuel pump for each tank, and that the aux fuel pump is just that, an auxillary. True, it's "just in case", and it is on the checklist, but forgetting it is not the same level of criticality as forgetting to go full throttle on take-off.

But, that's my opinion, and usually it's not worth much.

But ya done good on the rest of it, so be happy!
 
I am happy! My CFI is happy. My IFR pilot husband not so much. <sigh>
 
You'll get it next time. I busted my private ride too, for engine-out work. The good news is your certificate reads the same when you get it, and you don't forget it.
 
I am trying to remember if I used a checklist. I know it is in the PTS but I struggle to remember if I did or not (other than engine start, and runup).

It is great that you did all of the other items, and did them well. Do you think the pressure being off helped? (No pressure to complete any item)
 
The penalty is that you get to fly more. And you probably won't miss anything on the checklist for at least another 50 hours. :goofy: :)
 
I feel for ya... you'll get it on the next one!
 
All I kept thinking was "I can't bust anything else on this 'ride - I know this stuff cold" So doing an hour or so of touch and goes with my CFI will be okay and then I can get back with the DPE early next week. I knew I didn't want to have to tell my CFI I needed "Takeoffs/landings AND xxx"
 
saracelica said:
I could've gone but I was so nervous
Click to expand...

Looks like that early nervousness lead to...

(Had PLENTY of time for checklist and I totally forgot to use it!)
[...] "Shoot fuel pump on"
Click to expand...

It was good to see that you recovered:

I was quite pleased with myself that I didn't let the "early" failure get me down.
Click to expand...

I do not have the reference handy, but I do know that it has been established that lessons learned by trying and failing are much more permanent than those in which you try and succeed right away.
 
It is little lessons like these that will make you remember for the next time. I was recently up with an instructor shaking off some rust and he proceeded to chastise me for not using the checklist, even though I covered everything that was on it during preflight and run-up.

I'm sure you'll nail it the next time.
 
saracelica said:
My husband was like "HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE FUEL PUMP?!"
Click to expand...
I think he's wrong. It's extremely easy to forget items, even in Cherokee where flows go easily left-to-right. I don't know how I passed the checkride, but I know that later I took off with carb heat on, with transponder off, with DG not set, and with the trim out of neutral (only did that one once though - a lesson difficult to forget). One day, after I already received my Complex endorsement, I took off with my CFI to build hours for insurance in Arrow, and forgot to raise the landing gear. Each time this was related to skipping the related checklist because I thought I knew it too well to bother.

I think getting checklists to be as convenient as possible is very important. Gene Witt suggested making a card and hang it on a string around the neck, upside down of course. This will reduce the desire to skip running them.
 
zaitcev said:
I think he's wrong. It's extremely easy to forget items, even in Cherokee where flows go easily left-to-right. I don't know how I passed the checkride, but I know that later I took off with carb heat on, with transponder off, with DG not set, and with the trim out of neutral (only did that one once though - a lesson difficult to forget). One day, after I already received my Complex endorsement, I took off with my CFI to build hours for insurance in Arrow, and forgot to raise the landing gear. Each time this was related to skipping the related checklist because I thought I knew it too well to bother.

I think getting checklists to be as convenient as possible is very important. Gene Witt suggested making a card and hang it on a string around the neck, upside down of course. This will reduce the desire to skip running them.
Click to expand...
Which ABQ area DPE did you use?

Skipping stuff is very easy to do. I would be lying if I said I've never taking off with the transponder still in STBY.
 
zaitcev said:
One day, after I already received my Complex endorsement, I took off with my CFI to build hours for insurance in Arrow, and forgot to raise the landing gear. [...]

I think getting checklists to be as convenient as possible is very important. Gene Witt suggested making a card and hang it on a string around the neck, upside down of course. This will reduce the desire to skip running them.
Click to expand...

Okay, I admit I've done that too. Went out to do commercial maneuvers with Leslie right seat, and just couldn't understand why I wasn't getting normal performance and then it dawned on me... Checklist usage is something that I'm trying consciously to improve. And, now that I'm posting this, I'll have an incident and the NTSB will find this post and... Ugh.

What can I say. Do as I say, not as I do!
 
Sorry to hear about that sara.

But yeah, I have boo coo hours in a Turbo Arrow where the fuel pump is not used in normal operation. Hard to remember to use the fuel pump in the Arrow II I'm flying now, so, yeah, I'll scan the checklist.
 
I have a feeling when I get with my CFI to "review" before the next sign off he'll attempt to staple my hand to the fuel pump switch so I don't forget it. The DPE did say that on some Warriors there is a label that is checklist and says "Fuel pump on"

Thanks for all the support PoA'ers.
 
Did you use a checklist with your CFI on every single flight? Was is a pre made deal or hand made by you or your CFI? What phases does it cover? (ie preflight, befor start, after start, before takeoff, after takeoff, before landing, after landing, shutdown?)
 
saracelica said:
I am happy! My CFI is happy. My IFR pilot husband not so much. <sigh>
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Well, don't be too happy. Let that one burn into your memory. If not it could kill you.

Many years ago, I rented an old Cherokee 180, 1965 if memory serves. The fuel switch marking were quite worn away, but still somewhat visible, so I put the fuel selector where I thought the right tank was. On runup the engine quit. I was dumfounded, then re-checked the fuel selector and realized it wasn't all the way to the Right tank marker. If I had skipped part of my checklist, the engine may have quit on takeoff. Hindsight, I should have double checked the fuel selector location, however, the extra time it took to get through the checklist, and perform all the task may have saved my life. Losing an engine on takeoff, at low altitude ain't fun. :no:
 
I might very well have not showed up with a checklist had it not been for Wayne here on the forum. When he flew with me, he showed me his checklist and sent me a copy of his spreadsheet. I modified it for my plane and began using it faithfully. It is way better than any commercially available version.

I still use it, and it still keeps me out of trouble. I've printed new copies several times meaning to get it laminated, but it still works.

Keep at it Sarah!
 
saracelica said:
We go and start on the xc and I point out my first landmark. He says "Fine - wx is too bad to keep going this way head South and find an airport in this direction" So I look on my sectional and put the first one in the GPS it's SSW of our current direction he says "It goes West and that's no good - try again"
Click to expand...

That was similar to the scenario my own DPE gave me. We started the XC, and a couple minutes later he said, "Whoa! There's a huge line of thunderstorms that just started forming ahead of us! And we can't go back because the ceilings just dropped behind us. Get us over to another airport!" Since we were heading S, and couldn't go back N, I was limited to E or W as an out. I didn't have a GP or S at the time, so the diversion was like my CFI taught me: Mark the time, make the turn, estimate a heading by sliding my pencil from the expected course to the closest VOR rose. The last knuckle on my thumb is about 10nm long, so I could quickly estimate the distance. And knowing winds aloft, I could estimate ground speed and with all that info I could figure out time and fuel to destination. I was all proud of myself - then the DPE said, OK, that's good enough. Lets go do some stalls. I really wanted to follow through on the diversion to see how well I did on my navigation!
 
The only reason I turn the boost pump on when I start up is so I can hear it working. I'd rather the engine died on startup if the main pump went, rather than go flying around on the backup.

Sorry to hear you still have check ride problems. You seem to have a really good attitude, and I hope you make it through.
 
Bingo! From a "is this person ready to act as PIC after the completion of this checkride" standpoint, I'd much rather see a blown maneuver than failure to remember to use a checklist. One error is a temporary glitch, the other is systemic.

Anthony said:
Well, don't be too happy. Let that one burn into your memory. If not it could kill you.

Many years ago, I rented an old Cherokee 180, 1965 if memory serves. The fuel switch marking were quite worn away, but still somewhat visible, so I put the fuel selector where I thought the right tank was. On runup the engine quit. I was dumfounded, then re-checked the fuel selector and realized it wasn't all the way to the Right tank marker. If I had skipped part of my checklist, the engine may have quit on takeoff. Hindsight, I should have double checked the fuel selector location, however, the extra time it took to get through the checklist, and perform all the task may have saved my life. Losing an engine on takeoff, at low altitude ain't fun. :no:
Click to expand...
 
The key to remembering is to develop procedures which trigger you to run the checklists at certain points every single time. For example, during VFR ops, I get the fuel check (pump on, tank selected) and first speed reduction at 10 miles, then reduce to pattern entry speed at 5 -- every time. It's habit now to do those 10/5 checks, and if I see 8 miles without having done them, it triggers me to check them and think about what else I may have missed. Another check is to recheck the gear as the approach end of the runway reaches the nose -- even in a fixed gear plane so it's well-drilled habit. Law of Exercise, and all that.
 
wabower said:
Bingo! From a "is this person ready to act as PIC after the completion of this checkride" standpoint, I'd much rather see a blown maneuver than failure to remember to use a checklist. One error is a temporary glitch, the other is systemic.
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Exactly, that's why I asked if a checklist was used each and every flight or was it more 'once in awhile if we thought of it' sort of deal. I do like Cap'n Rons 'triggers' to remember to do the required tasks and run the list. Distance or altitude, even both. Whatever...just have a system of triggers that jog you lump of neurons into action.
 
zaitcev said:
Sorry to hijack Sara's thread, but it was Mr. Veneklassen.
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I flew my PP ride with Geoff V. too, in Santa Fe. He's a great guy. It was my second PP ride as I pink slipped the first one...

You are doing well Sara to be able to just keep going on the rest of ride and not let it throw you. The next round should be a piece of cake.
 
Anthony said:
Well, don't be too happy. Let that one burn into your memory. If not it could kill you.

Many years ago, I rented an old Cherokee 180, 1965 if memory serves. The fuel switch marking were quite worn away, but still somewhat visible, so I put the fuel selector where I thought the right tank was. On runup the engine quit. I was dumfounded, then re-checked the fuel selector and realized it wasn't all the way to the Right tank marker. If I had skipped part of my checklist, the engine may have quit on takeoff. Hindsight, I should have double checked the fuel selector location, however, the extra time it took to get through the checklist, and perform all the task may have saved my life. Losing an engine on takeoff, at low altitude ain't fun. :no:
Click to expand...
Current issue of Plane and Pilot discusses fuel lever issues that led to fatal accidents. Worth checking out.
 
I'll make it through. Takeoffs and landings are the *easy* part. We do use a checklist everytime we fly. The DPE commented he saw me look right at the fuel pump switch 3 times but I never flipped it on.

I look at it this way and I think I said it in an earlier posting...If I had to mess up one part of the 'ride I'm glad it's takeoff/landings. Having to do any of the other *high air work* or stuff over and over again until I'm blue with my CFI would not be fun. This way I get to go fly with my CFI and only focus on the take off and landings and get them to be just as spectatacular as the rest of the flying was yesterday. If I did lose fuel pressure on takeoff our airport is surrounded by farm fields (okay one direction there is railroad tracks and that'd be ugly to crash into but I think I'd survive)
 
MBDiagMan said:
I might very well have not showed up with a checklist had it not been for Wayne here on the forum. When he flew with me, he showed me his checklist and sent me a copy of his spreadsheet. I modified it for my plane and began using it faithfully. It is way better than any commercially available version.

I still use it, and it still keeps me out of trouble. I've printed new copies several times meaning to get it laminated, but it still works.

Keep at it Sarah!
Click to expand...

You changed your avatar, Doc!
 
saracelica said:
I'll make it through. Takeoffs and landings are the *easy* part. We do use a checklist everytime we fly. The DPE commented he saw me look right at the fuel pump switch 3 times but I never flipped it on.

I look at it this way and I think I said it in an earlier posting...If I had to mess up one part of the 'ride I'm glad it's takeoff/landings. Having to do any of the other *high air work* or stuff over and over again until I'm blue with my CFI would not be fun. This way I get to go fly with my CFI and only focus on the take off and landings and get them to be just as spectatacular as the rest of the flying was yesterday. If I did lose fuel pressure on takeoff our airport is surrounded by farm fields (okay one direction there is railroad tracks and that'd be ugly to crash into but I think I'd survive)
Click to expand...


I, for one, am glad to hear you use your checklist every flight. I was thinking form your initial post that it was something that may have been neglected. Glad to hear that isn't the case.

We all have brain farts. Learn from this and never look right at a switch and say 'A' when the switch is 'B'. I've flown with ATPs in a crew environment where they call for a checklist and I pull it out. I read the challenge and they READ the response back off the checklist while the item sits there not even looked at. I shut is down right there and take the checklist from them. They want to make to 'proper' verbatim response. Okay, but if that means we are just going to read this checklist back and forth with nobody actually checking anything then whats the point?

My other favorite is when I call for a checklist and they run it from memory. If we're going to do a memorized flow and back that up with a memorized checklist, again...what's the point? Usually I just start making up crazy responses. They say, 'Gear' and I say, 'Off'. That gets the point across...most times.
 
I honestly think using a paper checklist every time for a simple aircraft like a warrior, arrow or whatever can be a dangerous crutch (in some circumstances). Its good for newer pilots or on your checkride, or on an unfamiliar airplane. But I think its more prudent to develop a flow or other memorized checklist (CIGAR, GUMPS, whatever) that you can do in your head and quickly. I think these methods also enhance the muscle memory associated with doing a checklist, which lowers the brain power required to complete the checklist and at the same time decreases the possibility of error. Complex, two pilot aircraft are an exception.

I have been flying a few times with a friend who does the paper checklist thing. The first time I went flying with him and he whips out the checklist in a cessna that I know he is very familiar with, and painstakingly reads and does everything. We fly to our destination and on downwind he does the paper checklist thing. I think "well, he spent an awful lot of time looking down at that checklist (and not out the window while in the pattern in MVFR conditions) but at least he won't miss anything"

Fast forward a few months. He is nearing 30 hours into his instrument training, and I have flown safety pilot for him several times. He's pretty good at understanding the approach plate, working with navaids, talking on the radio, and flying by ref to instruments. What's the biggest and most dangerous error i've seen him make? Checklist. When he's busy with all of the IFR stuff, he either forgets the before landing checklist entirely, or tries to do it half assed from memory and forgets something. probably 5 out of the last 7 approaches he's forgotten the carb heat.. very dangerous mistake when in the clouds with all that moisture...

What if you're a paper checklist guy and you're flying an approach in IMC and turbulence, and your eyes skip over a line? How about if that checklist decides to fall out of your lap and gets stuck under your seat while downwind in the pattern with a bunch of traffic?
 
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saracelica said:
If I did lose fuel pressure on takeoff our airport is surrounded by farm fields (okay one direction there is railroad tracks and that'd be ugly to crash into but I think I'd survive)
Click to expand...

LOL thats not a justification for forgetting your fuel pump!

I'm glad to hear you sound to have made great progress since your last checkride.
 
dell30rb said:
I honestly think using a paper checklist every time for a simple aircraft like a warrior, arrow or whatever can be a dangerous crutch (in some circumstances). Its good for newer pilots or on your checkride, or on an unfamiliar airplane. But I think its more prudent to develop a flow or other memorized checklist (CIGAR, GUMPS, whatever) that you can do in your head and quickly. I think these methods also enhance the muscle memory associated with doing a checklist, which lowers the brain power required to complete the checklist and at the same time decreases the possibility of error. Complex, two pilot aircraft are an exception.

I have been flying a few times with a friend who does the paper checklist thing. The first time I went flying with him and he whips out the checklist in a cessna that I know he is very familiar with, and painstakingly reads and does everything. We fly to our destination and on downwind he does the paper checklist thing. I think "well, he spent an awful lot of time looking down at that checklist (and not out the window while in the pattern in MVFR conditions) but at least he won't miss anything"

Fast forward a few months. He is nearing 30 hours into his instrument training, and I have flown safety pilot for him several times. He's pretty good at understanding the approach plate, working with navaids, talking on the radio, and flying by ref to instruments. What's the biggest and most dangerous error i've seen him make? Checklist. When he's busy with all of the IFR stuff, he either forgets the before landing checklist entirely, or tries to do it half assed from memory and forgets something. probably 5 out of the last 7 approaches he's forgotten the carb heat.. very dangerous mistake when in the clouds with all that moisture...

What if you're a paper checklist guy and you're flying an approach in IMC and turbulence, and your eyes skip over a line? How about if that checklist decides to fall out of your lap and gets stuck under your seat while downwind in the pattern with a bunch of traffic?
Click to expand...

good point toward training to muscle memory certain checklists. I think I have the shutdown checklist cold.:D
 
Originally Posted by saracelica
If I did lose fuel pressure on takeoff our airport is surrounded by farm fields (okay one direction there is railroad tracks and that'd be ugly to crash into but I think I'd survive)

dell30rb said:
LOL thats not a justification for forgetting your fuel pump!

I'm glad to hear you sound to have made great progress since your last checkride.
Click to expand...


I really think the OP needs to take a deep breath, and bite the ego bullet a little. This can be interpretted as a somewhat dangerous attitude. Now I know why your husband is concerned. You don't ever want to put yourself in that position, especially when it could be avoided by doing YOUR JOB AS PIC. What if a school yard is there when your engine quits?
 
saracelica said:
I am happy! My CFI is happy. My IFR pilot husband not so much. <sigh>
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Just add a "P" to your takeoff (I do LCAP):

Lights
Camera
Action
PUMP

Also do a B-GUMP on Base when landing:

Boost Pump
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop
 
Anthony said:
Originally Posted by saracelica
If I did lose fuel pressure on takeoff our airport is surrounded by farm fields (okay one direction there is railroad tracks and that'd be ugly to crash into but I think I'd survive)




I really think the OP needs to take a deep breath, and bite the ego bullet a little. This can be interpretted as a somewhat dangerous attitude. Now I know why your husband is concerned. You don't ever want to put yourself in that position, especially when it could be avoided by doing YOUR JOB AS PIC. What if a school yard is there when your engine quits?
Click to expand...

I think this is at least the third attempt for the OP to pass the checkride. Once she "Begged" her instructor to sign her off because she felt she had enough hours and figured she could "pull it off."

IMHO there is a dangerous disconnect in the OP's training and understanding of the responsibilities of PIC.

I might get slammed by all the "Old-time POAers" for this post, but somebody needs to have a long, come to JC meeting with this lady. I knew two guys like this. In both cases they crashed shortly after getting their PPL. One almost completely wiped out his family. Neither of them ever flew again.

:nonod:
 
Definition of a checklist from a highly respected examiner and retired FAA Inspector:

Any organized or systematic method or procedure used to ensure that the desired objective is accomplished.
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Emphasis on "any." Using a paper checklist doesn't help if you forget to use it. The important issue is having that "organized or systematic method or procedure" to make sure you get the important stuff done every single time regardless of distractions.
 
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