Checkride Decision-making

LDJones

LDJones

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One of my students went for his private pilot checkride yesterday. The winds were strong and gusty, and he handled it just fine in our brush-up flight before the exam, but it was definitely not a great day for a checkride. We decided to proceed with the oral and see if the winds would subside.

Following the oral (which went pretty well, minus a couple of brain-freezes), the DPE asked if he wanted to fly. My student called me for my assessment. The wind was still 15 gusting to 22 and a bit of a crosswind with occasional light showers. I suggested he bank the successful oral and fly on a better day.

He went back to the DPE and said, "Well, I wouldn't go out and fly on a day like this at my experience level, so why would I take you up flying?"

The examiner smiled at him and said, "I think that's one of your best answers all day!"
 
Seems like a good choice. I would personally feel comfortable flying in those conditions, but I wouldn't do a checkride in them.

While I'm not a DPE, it seems to me that it should be a little concerning that he would need to call his CFI. I thought the point of a checkride was to prove that you could safely operate an aircraft as PIC, and not need to consult with somebody else on a go/no-go decision.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Seems like a good choice. I would personally feel comfortable flying in those conditions, but I wouldn't do a checkride in them.

While I'm not a DPE, it seems to me that it should be a little concerning that he would need to call his CFI. I thought the point of a checkride was to prove that you could safely operate an aircraft as PIC, and not need to consult with somebody else on a go/no-go decision.
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I was one building away in the pilot briefing room so had access to the most current airport conditions, hence the call.
 
Someone making a call to a mentor is a good PIC decision, even after the checkride :)
 
ja_user said:
Someone making a call to a mentor is a good PIC decision, even after the checkride :)
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I agree. Not long after I got my license I wanted to make a X-C on a less than stellar day....no, it was a downright crappy day!

So I called my flight instructor (a crusty old Nam vet who was flying crop dusters for a living) and proceded to layout the weather situation and my thoughts on how I could make the trip doable, despite the lousy weather.

He quietly listened to my monologue and didn't say anything. WHen I finished, I could hear him taking a long, deep drag on his cigarette.

His next words were, "Loren, days like today are why they make Buicks."

I drove.
 
On the flip side, I did my IR checkride in winds that were 20 kts gusting to 30 kts (try doing a hold in a 30 kt crosswind component). The examiner said we could defer it if I wanted but I was all about like dude, we're already here, let's knock this out. On top of that the home field ILS was out of service, and I didn't know it until we were getting ATIS in the plane (strike one.) But, I managed to pull it off, and diverted to another airport where I had to do an "unfamiliar" ILS approach, circling to a landing with a 17 kt crosswind component. DPE was impressed I was able to 1) live through a three hour checkride and 2) said my crosswind landing was the best he'd ever seen a private pilot do. I passed.
 
Sac Arrow said:
On the flip side, I did my IR checkride in winds that were 20 kts gusting to 30 kts (try doing a hold in a 30 kt crosswind component). The examiner said we could defer it if I wanted but I was all about like dude, we're already here, let's knock this out. On top of that the home field ILS was out of service, and I didn't know it until we were getting ATIS in the plane (strike one.) But, I managed to pull it off, and diverted to another airport where I had to do an "unfamiliar" ILS approach, circling to a landing with a 17 kt crosswind component. DPE was impressed I was able to 1) live through a three hour checkride and 2) said my crosswind landing was the best he'd ever seen a private pilot do. I passed.
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And for an instrument rating, I can see that...afterall, it is for flying in weather. But for an initial private pilot ride, I think he made a good call.
 
I had high winds during my PP Oral exam. DPE knew the situation about my -itis too. When I called it off, I think I scored extra points with him.

Although I scheduled to fly another day and did well, I think it setup his attitude for the flight.

And wouldn't you know, right after I called the flight off, the winds calmed down...t'wasn't meant to be that day...not for me.
 
Your student did well, and the DPE confirmed this in his answer. When I took my PPL checkride it was with low cloud ceilings. I mentioned this to the DPE, and said I wanted to wait until the ceilings lifted somewhat. He convinced me otherwise, and the checkride went fine. We never broke VFR standards, and it was a great checkride, which had the added stress of keeping a close eye on the clouds. Would have I gone out alone that day, no and now would only do it as I have IFR. Should have I stood my ground, in retrospect I could argue both sides of the coin. It did teach me the most important thing I learned in flying to this day...probably the hardest thing about learning to fly is learning when NOT to fly.

Doug
 
I asked for a discontinuance for AIRMET TANGO for moderate turbulence at my location and likely altitudes. Steep turns with moderate turbulence just didn't seem like a very good idea.

In front of the DPE, I called the AFSS and asked for PIREPs. I got one -- far away (KSCK) -- and it was for low level wind shear. Not what I wanted to hear.
 
MAKG1 said:
I asked for a discontinuance for AIRMET TANGO for moderate turbulence at my location and likely altitudes. Steep turns with moderate turbulence just didn't seem like a very good idea.

In front of the DPE, I called the AFSS and asked for PIREPs. I got one -- far away (KSCK) -- and it was for low level wind shear. Not what I wanted to hear.
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I had a AIRMENT TANGO on my long solo XC, it sucked. I had light to moderate chop my whole checkride (June in Phoenix) and a light crosswind. Somehow I passed :dunno: Then I went to the Dakotas and learned what a real crosswind was :yikes:

I think the student made a great choice. And the DPE saw some good ADM.
 
Long ago, I was at a new job and filling out all the paperwork. One of the forms really bothered me so I called a friend (lawyer) and started asking about some things. His response was that if I was sufficiently concerned/unsure/bothered to the point of calling him, I already had my answer. Thanked the HR person for their time and left.

I apply the same standard to flying - if I'm need to discuss the weather or anything else because I'm not sure, then I don't need to be flying that day.

Caveat: if I'm taking a lesson (instrument) I'm definitely discussing the weather with the CFI!
 
I think calling the CFI is just like consulting another pilot. Nothing wrong with a second opinion. Makes you realize there are people just as crazy as you.
 
Calling a more experience person you trust to help you make a good decision is always a good thing. I believe it falls under the category of adequate preflight procedures.

Doug
 
My PP check ride took two days because of weather. The oral went fine, but ceilings were a problem. I pulled an updated weather briefing and the clouds were too low. Disappointing to delay the flight, but that's the way it goes. We were away from the home field and the CFI was with me. We filed IFR to get home, but stayed out of the clouds. Went back later and did the flight on a nice day. April is an interesting time of year to fly in western Washington.

Your student made the right call. I agree with the DPE.
 
I had to cancel my checkride five times due to crummy WX (marginal VFR & gusty winds). When it was all over with and I finally got my ticket, the DPE said he was impressed by my ADM. He said many Private Pilot applicants attempt to fly on days like the ones I cancelled on and fail miserably/get in over their heads. I thought it was just common sense not to fly on days like that.

Even now I ask my CFI questions about something most every time I see him. Having your CFI close by is a great resourse...I say use it.
 
Epilogue:

Weather was only marginally better today but the winds were less gusty and mostly down the runway. He is now, officially, a pilot. Congrats, Jim!
 
LDJones said:
He went back to the DPE and said, "Well, I wouldn't go out and fly on a day like this at my experience level, so why would I take you up flying?"

The examiner smiled at him and said, "I think that's one of your best answers all day!"
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I tried that on checkride and the DPE stated, "I'm sure the winds will die down just enough for you to meet the Xwind component of the AC during the runup ... it did, by just matching it for about 60 seconds. It was above it the rest of the flight. After completing the ride during the paperwork phase, he told me that he would expect I should be able to handle those winds and more flying in my area and that I did just fine.
 
danhagan said:
I tried that on checkride and the DPE stated, "I'm sure the winds will die down just enough for you to meet the Xwind component of the AC during the runup ... it did, by just matching it for about 60 seconds. It was above it the rest of the flight. After completing the ride during the paperwork phase, he told me that he would expect I should be able to handle those winds and more flying in my area and that I did just fine.
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He made the right call at the time, the DPE agreed and today he was handed his license. All is good!
 
LDJones said:
You're in the decided minority. The DPE viewed it as a positive.
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I feel cheated, I also feel I have cheated my students.

When I took my checkrides I didnt know I had the "phone a friend" option, I also instilled in my students that during a checkride, as well as most of the time in the aircraft, the decision is the PICs alone and a decision they need to be able to make themselves.

If I would have known this, it would have made my life much easier, I just would have had my students call me for these types of questions during their rides.

Live and lean I guess.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
the decision is the PICs alone and a decision they need to be able to make themselves.
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Considering no one told the student they could call their CFI, and this student made their own decision to get a second opinion before the student made their own decision whether to fly or not, it sounds like they took your advice.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I feel cheated, I also feel I have cheated my students.

When I took my checkrides I didnt know I had the "phone a friend" option, I also instilled in my students that during a checkride, as well as most of the time in the aircraft, the decision is the PICs alone and a decision they need to be able to make themselves.

If I would have known this, it would have made my life much easier, I just would have had my students call me for these types of questions during their rides.

Live and lean I guess.
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The "phone a friend" option has been around for at least the 34 years I've been flying. Used it often in my early days. I'm surprised you weren't aware of it.
 
I was falsely under the impression that a test (of any-sort) was to judge the applicants skills, knowledge and decision making skills, not the CFIs decision making skills.

There will be times you cant ask for help and you need to be able to make your own decisions (which I THOUGHT these practical tests were meant to determine) seems like coddling a student like this on the test is a great disservice to the student and aviation as a whole.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I was falsely under the impression that a test (of any-sort) was to judge the applicants skills, knowledge and decision making skills, not the CFIs decision making skills.

There will be times you cant ask for help and you need to be able to make your own decisions (which I THOUGHT these practical tests were meant to determine) seems like coddling a student like this on the test is a great disservice to the student and aviation as a whole.
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Keep beating the dead horse.

The student used all resources at his disposal. DPE agreed. He passed. Not sure what more need be said.

BTW, You may have missed the point that I was in the weather briefing room with real-time wind read-outs for the airport. That was part of the information gathering.
 
You are correct, it's done and your guy is a "pilot" now.

Does anyone else find it troubling how easy and accessible we are making aviation these days? Not that long ago all students had to be proficient with navigating with there eyeballs and a chart, learned in Tailwheel aircraft, had to demonstrate spin recovery on a heading, etc.

Nowdays most DPEs are very relaxed, just direct to, ask your CFI (he's a resource) and if things go caca just hit the BRS button.

The DPE that gave me my private, the guy that went before me didn't have a watch on, DPE asks what his primary means of judging fuel is? After fumbling around the applicant said "time!", DPE asked how he knew the time when he didn't even have a watch on. Kid had to reset the checkride for another day.

It's like kids softball now, even the fat stupid kid gets a chance at bat, no one wins or looses, let's all just have fun! This appears to be the trend today, but in the sky the fat stupid kid ends up lawn darting his cirrus through someones house.

Somethings should be truly earned, besides does it make you feel better when you earn your ticket and are not just given it?
 
NineThreeKilo said:
You are correct, it's done and your guy is a "pilot" now.

Does anyone else find it troubling how easy and accessible we are making aviation these days? Not that long ago all students had to be proficient with navigating with there eyeballs and a chart, learned in Tailwheel aircraft, had to demonstrate spin recovery on a heading, etc.

Nowdays most DPEs are very relaxed, just direct to, ask your CFI (he's a resource) and if things go caca just hit the BRS button.

The DPE that gave me my private, the guy that went before me didn't have a watch on, DPE asks what his primary means of judging fuel is? After fumbling around the applicant said "time!", DPE asked how he knew the time when he didn't even have a watch on. Kid had to reset the checkride for another day.

It's like kids softball now, even the fat stupid kid gets a chance at bat, no one wins or looses, let's all just have fun! This appears to be the trend today, but in the sky the fat stupid kid ends up lawn darting his cirrus through someones house.

Somethings should be truly earned, besides does it make you feel better when you earn your ticket and are not just given it?
Click to expand...

Death rates are going down each year, so they are doing something right.

What makes me feel better, is becoming a safe pilot. If today it means I need to know less then someone who earned it 50 years ago due to technology, or that in 50 years that person will be allowed to know less then me, is of no interest.

I am not doing all this to feel like I accomplished something. I am doing it to get from point A to point B in the sky, without harming anyone.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
You are correct, it's done and your guy is a "pilot" now.

Does anyone else find it troubling how easy and accessible we are making aviation these days? Not that long ago all students had to be proficient with navigating with there eyeballs and a chart, learned in Tailwheel aircraft, had to demonstrate spin recovery on a heading, etc.

Nowdays most DPEs are very relaxed, just direct to, ask your CFI (he's a resource) and if things go caca just hit the BRS button.

The DPE that gave me my private, the guy that went before me didn't have a watch on, DPE asks what his primary means of judging fuel is? After fumbling around the applicant said "time!", DPE asked how he knew the time when he didn't even have a watch on. Kid had to reset the checkride for another day.

It's like kids softball now, even the fat stupid kid gets a chance at bat, no one wins or looses, let's all just have fun! This appears to be the trend today, but in the sky the fat stupid kid ends up lawn darting his cirrus through someones house.

Somethings should be truly earned, besides does it make you feel better when you earn your ticket and are not just given it?
Click to expand...

:mad2: What a crock of B.S. Another "...when I was lad, I walked barefoot, uphill in the snow to school...both ways...." story.

Yes, our exploding pilot populations must be due to lax DPEs doling out tickets like halloween candy. What a load of crap.

If you recall, in the "earn your ticket days" a lot of pilots just walked into the local Flight Service Station (they were EVERYWHERE!) and a briefer talked to you face to face, explaining the weather to you. They often offered their free "advice" on whether/how to fly the conditions presented.

For the record, the gentleman who's the subject of this thread displays far better stick-n-rudder skills than 75% of the pilots I fly with for flight reviews every week, most of whom were licensed in "The Good Old Days" when they supposedly "earned their tickets". By 20 hours his landings were consistently better than most of the old school pilots, as well.

He has most certainly earned the title "Pilot"...nothing was given to him.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
You are correct, it's done and your guy is a "pilot" now.

Does anyone else find it troubling how easy and accessible we are making aviation these days? Not that long ago all students had to be proficient with navigating with there eyeballs and a chart, learned in Tailwheel aircraft, had to demonstrate spin recovery on a heading, etc.

Nowdays most DPEs are very relaxed, just direct to, ask your CFI (he's a resource) and if things go caca just hit the BRS button.

The DPE that gave me my private, the guy that went before me didn't have a watch on, DPE asks what his primary means of judging fuel is? After fumbling around the applicant said "time!", DPE asked how he knew the time when he didn't even have a watch on. Kid had to reset the checkride for another day.

It's like kids softball now, even the fat stupid kid gets a chance at bat, no one wins or looses, let's all just have fun! This appears to be the trend today, but in the sky the fat stupid kid ends up lawn darting his cirrus through someones house.

Somethings should be truly earned, besides does it make you feel better when you earn your ticket and are not just given it?
Click to expand...


Yes, it is too easy and cheap these days too. This is why we have hundreds of thousands of people lined up to take checkrides...

SEriously, I know what you are trying to saw.. But flunking someone for not having a watch, is why a PTS was written, not why we have now have lazy pilots now...

I suspect people were taking a nap in their Cub back then too, not just in their Cirrus..
 
LDJones said:
:mad2: What a crock of B.S. Another "...when I was lad, I walked barefoot, uphill in the snow to school...both ways...." story.

Yes, our exploding pilot populations must be due to lax DPEs doling out tickets like halloween candy. What a load of crap.

If you recall, in the "earn your ticket days" a lot of pilots just walked into the local Flight Service Station (they were EVERYWHERE!) and a briefer talked to you face to face, explaining the weather to you. They often offered their free "advice" on whether/how to fly the conditions presented.

For the record, the gentleman who's the subject of this thread displays far better stick-n-rudder skills than 75% of the pilots I fly with for flight reviews every week, most of whom were licensed in "The Good Old Days" when they supposedly "earned their tickets". By 20 hours his landings were consistently better than most of the old school pilots, as well.

He has most certainly earned the title "Pilot"...nothing was given to him.
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Nothing was given to him??? You answered a question on a test (the BIGGEST test of his pilot journey thus far!) for him!

What other tests have you helped him with?

You know that the HIGHEST cause of fatal accidents are due to weather!!?? something like 80% of deaths in aircraft (per NALL).

These deaths are caused by students not knowing how to answer go/no go questions, kinda like that "should we go flying" question that you answered for him, one of these days he's going to have that question and might not have a phone handy to call you!

As for the your old school comments, chances are I am a little younger then you are giving me credit for. When I decided to make a career out of flying I decided that I wanted to actually learn to aviate, yea learned in a tailwheel, but also know how to make G1000 do what I want, can fly a no electrical system J3 across this country. This was because I learned that when chit goes wrong I'm not going to rely on others for my decisions, I'll used my knowledge/training and common sense to save myself.
 
Flying today has a different set of circumstances and challenges than it did in the "good ol days". The CFI who did my hp/complex learned to fly 50 years ago, and he's without a doubt the best pilot I know (followed closely by the guy who landed with half his wing missing). But he adapted with the times, now flies with GPS since it's in the airplane he flies for as a charter pilot. Class Bravo airspace wasn't around then, much less a GPS. This newer generation of pilots, like myself face different challenges and as I keep flying the times will keep changing. I have pilot friends, I've asked weather advice while I'm at the airport to more experienced guys, there is no shame in that. People have asked me about current conditions. It's reality.


If you're afraid of being looked down on, you'll end up another statistic because you didn't ask when you had the opportunity. There are so many resources to pilots, why be afraid to use the best ones?
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Nothing was given to him??? You answered a question on a test (the BIGGEST test of his pilot journey thus far!) for him!

What other tests have you helped him with?

You know that the HIGHEST cause of fatal accidents are due to weather!!?? something like 80% of deaths in aircraft (per NALL).

These deaths are caused by students not knowing how to answer go/no go questions, kinda like that "should we go flying" question that you answered for him, one of these days he's going to have that question and might not have a phone handy to call you!

As for the your old school comments, chances are I am a little younger then you are giving me credit for. When I decided to make a career out of flying I decided that I wanted to actually learn to aviate, yea learned in a tailwheel, but also know how to make G1000 do what I want, can fly a no electrical system J3 across this country. This was because I learned that when chit goes wrong I'm not going to rely on others for my decisions, I'll used my knowledge/training and common sense to save myself.
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No, he answered his own question after checking all data available to him. Had a FSS briefer provided the wind info to him, would the briefer have "answered a test question for him?". Horse puckey!

It's no wonder the pilot population is declining if this is the kind of attitudes young pilots run into within the CFI community.
 
LDJones said:
Had a FSS briefer provided the wind info to him, would the briefer have "answered a test question for him?"
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Calling flight services is diffrent from doing this
LDJones said:
My student called me for my assessment
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Didnt know the briefer would make a go/no go call for me



My response would have been that my assessment is he should use the tools I have given him, turn off his damn phone, look at the reports, stick his head out the window and answer the damn question for himself.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Calling flight services is diffrent from doing this

Didnt know the briefer would make a go/no go call for me

My response would have been that my assessment is he should use the tools I have given him, turn off his damn phone, look at the reports, stick his head out the window and answer the damn question for himself.
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And around and around we go....

He made the final decision using the tools acquired throughout his training. The DPE concurred.

I will never tell a student, current or former, to go figure things out for themselves if they seek my advice. I may not give them the answer, but will always help them find the right answer. But to each their own.
 
I can see both sides in this, but let's face facts... it takes a long time to become even mildly proficient at weather and the pros get paid to be wrong.

I've had two other pilot friends call me on my cell this year and say "Hey, what's the weather really doing there?" as a final check on their weather pre-flight checks and they've got hundreds more hours than the newbie.

The typical U.S. pilot has a cell phone in their pocket at all times these days. It's just another tool in the arsenal. As someone pointed out, the AFSS system removed local eyes from the system.

When I learned to fly, the best you could do was a pay phone and a long-distance calling card number or a call to FSS. FSS would actually talk to you back then without repeating "VFR not recommended" sixteen times to limit their liability. They were part of your team. They had the maps and charts you couldn't even get or see.

Today you can look at the chart yourself from even that same phone, but you're not a trained meteorologist. The FSS briefer, maybe. I get the distinct feeling that they're mostly reading from a script. Some of them, anyway. They're not meaning to be vague, but they can't possibly know local weather as well as folks who used to live here. Most of my AFSS briefings are out of Arizona these days. (I ask. Ask sometime. It's enlightening.)

I truly want a world where every pilot can look at all the crazy amounts of available weather data and make their own decision, but I'd also prefer a low-time pilot asks for opinions of experienced folk.

Pilots are not sitting around the FBO drinking coffee and telling old War stories like they were when I started at 19 years old. You could ask the "gang" their opinion and you'd get ten. And a comsensus. Today, you're lucky to find a couple of busy Corporate jet pilots who've been doing this dance for a while. The "gang" is online now. Here. And a few other places.

So cut the kid some slack. I'm no CFI but I'd rather they called and asked, perhaps in a manner where they'd come to their own conclusion, and then the CFI (or trusted pilot friend) coached them through reiterating how they came to that decision and pointing out major errors or overlooked pieces of important information. "Did you notice how big a pressure drop there is between the airport you're at now and the airport twenty miles west of you? It's about to blow big there." That kind of thing. It's better than becoming another statistic.

You can't walk into the FSS and get a free impromptu weather lesson from a 20 year FSS guy or gal anymore. And it doesn't cost $20 to make that call from one of those little pilot crew rest phone boxes with an old desk and chair worn out by someone sleeping in it waiting out the weather.

Guys like Scott are doing their best to provide weather knowledge via formal training and information, but they have to feed themselves too. A subscription to Scott's website and some self-study can fill in a lot of weather knowledge gaps.

But my phone will always be on and available for any flying friend who wants a weather opinion, too. I'll even drop what I'm doing and go outside and really look. Or look at online data and help them solidify their opinion or say, "Don't like it, my friend."

What the newbie showed was an ability to know when something was beyond their depth. That's a very good pilot trait. If he couldn't reach the CFI, maybe he would have said the magic "discontinuance" word. I'm okay with that too. Knowing your own limitations is a significant part of aviation.
 
Nothing wrong with asking for opinions but you need to make the decision yourself. In this case I can see both sides, but only because it was a test.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
one of these days he's going to have that question and might not have a phone handy to call you!
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This is what I mean by technology changing the game.

I am pretty sure he has far more to learn, then he has learned, so one day very soon he would not ask that question...


However what day will he be thinking about flying, and not have a phone handy? Is he going to go flying in 1978?
 
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