"Check Gear Down"

ebykowsky

ebykowsky

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Flying into KJST today in the club 152, controller tells me "Check gear down". Turns out I forgot to retract them after takeoff! :eek: I had a pretty good chuckle at that one.
 
IIRC, Johnstown's tower is military operated (PA NG on a p/t basis -- thank you Mr. Murtha). Their book requires them to remind every aircraft to "check wheels down" when issuing a landing clearance. They are not given discretion to leave that out for fixed-gear aircraft since they may not always know who's fixed-gear and who's retractable. You'll hear this at all military and any dual use fields where the military runs the tower, so get used to it -- you're going to hear it again, and again, and again...
 
ebykowsky said:
Flying into KJST today in the club 152, controller tells me "Check gear down". Turns out I forgot to retract them after takeoff! :eek: I had a pretty good chuckle at that one.
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When it's dual use, the controller is required to say that regardless of your gear configuration.
 
Fearless Tower said:
When it's dual use, the controller is required to say that regardless of your gear configuration.
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Hmm. Interesting; didn't know they had to do that for non military aircraft. Is there any reason they do this in the military and not the civilian side? Also is it mandatory for the calling aircraft to confirm?
 
I remember hearing it when I flew in one of the aeroclub aircraft in the AF. As I remember you just acknowledge being cleared to land. Probably wouldn't offend them if you said your gear was down to.

Someone much smarter and wiser will tell you with certainty,:idea:
 
ebykowsky said:
Hmm. Interesting; didn't know they had to do that for non military aircraft. Is there any reason they do this in the military and not the civilian side? Also is it mandatory for the calling aircraft to confirm?
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No, but if you don't acknowledge they'll keep repeating it until you do.
 
Next time request a low slow pass and have them check for you.

*waits for someone with an oak tree up their rear to chime in with regulations and blah blah blah*
 
Military controllers do have discretion when it comes to the "check wheels down (twr) or "wheels should be down" (GCA) phraseology. If its obvious the aircraft doesn't have retractable gear, common sense would suggest not to issue the call. We never issued a wheels down check for our local H-46s. We'd get the typical "down and welded" if we did.

One time I was monitoring a student doing a GCA on a Marine Cobra. I told him to issue wheels down to the aircraft. He looked at me crazy because we both knew it had skids. I just wanted to hear the pilots reply. He said "skids down and welded." :)
 
I had no idea that military controllers say that. Now I really want to know how the Hawker Hunter pilot did a gear up at PT. Mugu last year.
 
Velocity173 said:
Military controllers do have discretion when it comes to the "check wheels down (twr) or "wheels should be down" (GCA) phraseology. If its obvious the aircraft doesn't have retractable gear, common sense would suggest not to issue the call. We never issued a wheels down check for our local H-46s. We'd get the typical "down and welded" if we did.
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I'm not seeing that discretion.


2−1−24. WHEELS DOWN CHECK

USA/USAF/USN

Remind aircraft to check wheels down on each
approach unless the pilot has previously reported
wheels down for that approach.

NOTE−
The intent is solely to remind the pilot to lower the wheels,
not to place responsibility on the controller.

a. Tower must issue the wheels down check at an
appropriate place in the pattern.

PHRASEOLOGY−
CHECK WHEELS DOWN.

b. Approach/arrival control, GCA must issue the
wheels down check as follows:

1. To aircraft conducting ASR, PAR, or radar
monitored approaches, before the aircraft starts
descent on final approach.

2. To aircraft conducting instrument approaches
and remaining on the radar facility’s frequency,
before the aircraft passes the outer marker/final
approach fix.

PHRASEOLOGY−
WHEELS SHOULD BE DOWN.
 
What if the aircraft has no wheels?
 
Luvrv8 said:
I had no idea that military controllers say that. Now I really want to know how the Hawker Hunter pilot did a gear up at PT. Mugu last year.
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Sometimes they forget/make mistakes. When the C-17 gear-upped in AFG, the investigation noted that the tower controller failed to issue the 'check wheels down'.
 
roncachamp said:
I'm not seeing that discretion.


2−1−24. WHEELS DOWN CHECK

USA/USAF/USN

Remind aircraft to check wheels down on each
approach unless the pilot has previously reported
wheels down for that approach.

NOTE−
The intent is solely to remind the pilot to lower the wheels,
not to place responsibility on the controller.

a. Tower must issue the wheels down check at an
appropriate place in the pattern.

PHRASEOLOGY−
CHECK WHEELS DOWN.

b. Approach/arrival control, GCA must issue the
wheels down check as follows:

1. To aircraft conducting ASR, PAR, or radar
monitored approaches, before the aircraft starts
descent on final approach.

2. To aircraft conducting instrument approaches
and remaining on the radar facility’s frequency,
before the aircraft passes the outer marker/final
approach fix.

PHRASEOLOGY−
WHEELS SHOULD BE DOWN.
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Don't care what the .65 says. The discretion is common sense. Military controllers aren't robots and if they've been doing it for a while then they know what aircraft have retracts and which ones don't. When in doubt, we issued it.

Does it make sense to issue a wheels down to a skids aircraft? Are military controllers even required to know which aircraft have skids and which ones don't?

I flew UH-60s for 12 yrs at Army facilities and NEVER once got a wheels down check. Occasionally I got it at other military branch facilities who didn't know any better though.
 
I got that experience at KSTJ (St Joe, MO) when my CFI took me there one day. She didn't warn me ahead of time, just to see what I'd do. I was just a dumb student in a Warrior. When tower told me to check gear down, I didn't know what else to do, so I told him my gear was down. I must have passed the test.
 
Flying into Ellington Field (EFD) in Houston, (didnt know that was considered dual use, but they have military and NASA traffic) I have always wondered why they have issued the "check wheels down" to the Cessna 152.
 
Velocity173 said:
I flew UH-60s for 12 yrs at Army facilities and NEVER once got a wheels down check. Occasionally I got it at other military branch facilities who didn't know any better though.
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In my experience, with the exception of the AF, the other services tend to use some common sense.

There seems to be no room for that in the Air Force/ANG.
 
Well, APN gave me that on my long student XC in a 172. I suppose it was required even by common sense, as they couldn't have known for sure that it wasn't a Cutlass.

I think that was before I'd heard of "down and welded".

That's actually the only time I've been told to check gear down. Haven't been to a dual use facility since.
 
Crap; so kind of related to this thread, but kind of unrelated: I just looked on Airnav (should have done this beforehand) and found that there is a landing fee at KJST (Why? I have no clue.) How do I figure out how much it is and if it even applies to me?
 
Matthew said:
Don't they mail you a bill?
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Probably, but they don't know who was flying (my club will probably forward it to me). And I'd rather figure out beforehand what I got myself into. I figure it can't be more than $10/landing, since they do have a flight school there. I did 2 landings, so not a huge deal. But I'd still like to know beforehand.
 
azure said:
Well, APN gave me that on my long student XC in a 172. I suppose it was required even by common sense, as they couldn't have known for sure that it wasn't a Cutlass.

I think that was before I'd heard of "down and welded".

That's actually the only time I've been told to check gear down. Haven't been to a dual use facility since.
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Sure, in that case I would've issued it as well. No telling if it has retracts or not. Like I said, when in doubt, issue it.

There are plenty of military controllers who don't know the difference between a C-150 and a C-550. We had a Jane's World Aircraft book in the radar room but for reference only. We also had a massive aircraft list with common names for aircraft types. We had no requirement to know which aircraft had retracts and which ones didn't. However, if you're an approach controller or local controller, you better have a good grasp of specific aircraft performance. I remember when I first started I would get confused with a PA-38. It's a high number so it's got to be faster than a PA-34 right? Not so much.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In my experience, with the exception of the AF, the other services tend to use some common sense.

There seems to be no room for that in the Air Force/ANG.
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Yeah AF is parculiar in some ways. I did a PAR once for a flight of two F-16s out of Shaw. I gave them the usual "Beaufort student final controller, how do you hear me?" immediately lead requested a qualified controller. My monitor unplugged me and literally kicked my chair aside. Not sure why he needed a qualified controller but whatever.

I can tell you if I made it a habit of issuing wheels down to aircraft who didn't have retracts (H-60,H-46,H-1 etc) the radar sup or my monitor would slap me upside the head and say "I told you he doesn't have retracts." Not to mention it would probably annoy the pilot to my lack of understanding what type I'm dealing with. Having done hundreds if not thousands of traffic patterns at Ft Rucker, it would be quite annoying each time to hear a wheels down call especially if I already told them they're welded.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sometimes they forget/make mistakes. When the C-17 gear-upped in AFG, the investigation noted that the tower controller failed to issue the 'check wheels down'.
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Bagram 2009? Happened just before I got there. Problem is It's run by contract controllers and you get a range of experience levels there. You'll hear some guys that are squared away and others seem like its there first day on the job. It's also very busy and during "rush hour" it's an absolute mess. Don't know how many times the controllers tried to kill me there. You can't even get in a word to get a takeoff or landing clearance. Even with a code on board we'd have to hold for other aircraft.

That's another place where I can't recall ever getting a wheels down check.
 
ebykowsky said:
Hmm. Interesting; didn't know they had to do that for non military aircraft. Is there any reason they do this in the military and not the civilian side?
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Because it's the military. :D

Seriously, the military has a lot lower experience levels in very expensive airplanes than the major airlines, and that's a recipe for mistakes. At USAF and Navy bases, there is even a "wheels watch" sitting at the end of the runway with a radio and a flare gun in case someone reaches short final with no wheels (or skids, for the AH/UH-1's) showing.

Also is it mandatory for the calling aircraft to confirm?
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It is for the military aircraft (or at least both the Navy and Air Force when I was flying in them) -- they'd keep asking until you said it. Not sure what their rule is when talking to civilian aircraft.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah AF is parculiar in some ways. I did a PAR once for a flight of two F-16s out of Shaw. I gave them the usual "Beaufort student final controller, how do you hear me?" immediately lead requested a qualified controller. My monitor unplugged me and literally kicked my chair aside. Not sure why he needed a qualified controller but whatever.
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My buddy Al Reed was an IP in F-111's out of Cannon back in the 1970's and was in the right seat with a new pilot out for some PAR's somewhere they did a lot of controller training. Got the usual "be advised this approach is being conducted by a student controller under direct supervision from a fully qualified controller." Al keyed the mike and replied, "Well, this approach is being flown by a student pilot under the direct supervision of a fully qualified instructor."

Moment of silence before the controller came back with the next transmission, with laughter in the background.

As for why they'd want a qualified controller, that would be something they'd ask if there was an aircraft problem or other emergency or near-emergency situation.
 
Velocity173 said:
Don't care what the .65 says.
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Then you're unfit for ATC.

The discretion is common sense.
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There is no discretion.

Does it make sense to issue a wheels down to a skids aircraft?
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Irrelevant.

Are military controllers even required to know which aircraft have skids and which ones don't?
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No.

I flew UH-60s for 12 yrs at Army facilities and NEVER once got a wheels down check. Occasionally I got it at other military branch facilities who didn't know any better though.
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Right. Those that followed the book didn't know any better.
 
roncachamp said:
Then you're unfit for ATC.



There is no discretion.



Irrelevant.



No.



Right. Those that followed the book didn't know any better.
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The note says to remind pilots to lower the gear. If the gear doesn't retract then you're making a wasted transmission. As I said, not all controllers are robots.

Steven, you were never a military controller and you sure weren't a military pilot. You're experience is strictly related to working FAA at GRB. I suggest you stick with that.
 
Velocity173 said:
Steven, you were never a military controller and you sure weren't a military pilot. You're experience is strictly related to working FAA at GRB. I suggest you stick with that.
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My experience includes nine years at ZAU.
 
Ron Levy said:
Seriously, the military has a lot lower experience levels in very expensive airplanes than the major airlines, and that's a recipe for mistakes. At USAF and Navy bases, there is even a "wheels watch" sitting at the end of the runway with a radio and a flare gun in case someone reaches short final with no wheels (or skids, for the AH/UH-1's) showing.
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I'll agree with all of the above as a whole, but I have never seen a wheels watch anywhere other than training command bases (at least on the USN side). Is the AF doing that with normal operational units? I am aware of the SOF, but I was under the impression that he/she was more of a book reader in nature than something like this.

I'd also say that mil controllers are much less experienced than their civilian counterparts, at least in terms of the general population on duty on a normal day at work. Obviously there are the supervisors who are experienced. That being said, it is always entertaining to hear the tower meltdown when someone reports unsafe gear and that they are headed to the delta pattern (overhead troubleshooting pattern for non mil types info). And then to hear the sup gently (or not so gently) cut off the controller and correct. My hat is off to them though, so don't take this as an insult.....I don't think I'd do any better, and probably much worse. But short point drawn out into a long explanation, I think a lot of the mil controllers are at an experience level where they may just not quite be to the point where they make the connection that giving a check gear call is silly for a non-military fixed gear aircraft. They are trying to go off of what they know, and what they know is procedures. 9 times out of 10, when I call for taxi with the correct information and include the updated altimeter setting I have just heard them read to someone, I will still get the entire ATIS read to me, with current altimeter. Same thing with Giant Killer (our military run W area range control). It makes you cringe sometimes, but they are learning so I wouldn't fault them for trying to error on the side of being by the book.
 
Giant Killer...Oh how I hated them. :(
 
35 AoA said:
I don't know whether that is the place that the newest guys go to, but yeah, they are bad. Pretty much same deal with Sealord down south or Beaver on the west coast.
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Don't know why I said Giant Killer. I actually worked with Sealord. No real difference in experience though. One of our DOD civilians was former Navy ATC and despised them. He was embarrassed by their performance. Usually things happened like this:

"Beaufort! Sealord handoff!"

"Go ahead Sealord."

"Three five miles southeast Beaufort squawking ---- is Nickel 11 a flight of 4 F-18s at one two thousand."

"Uh they're already in my airspace."

"Yeah I know, sorry, I'm trying to flash them at you now. Can ya take them or should I spin them?!"

"Radar contact Nickel 11."

Ugh.
 
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35 AoA said:
I'll agree with all of the above as a whole, but I have never seen a wheels watch anywhere other than training command bases (at least on the USN side).
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We had it at Whidbey when I was there in the 1970's, but things may have changed in the last 40 years.
Is the AF doing that with normal operational units?
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They were in the 1980's when I was flying at Cannon and Upper Heyford, but again, things may have changed in the last 30 years.
I am aware of the SOF, but I was under the impression that he/she was more of a book reader in nature than something like this.
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The SOF was a lot more than a "book reader" in my day. He (no she's then in fighters) was generally a major or L/C (sometimes a very senior captain), the direct representative of the Deputy Wing Commander for Operations, in charge of all flying operations, and had considerable authority over what went on.
 
I made a fuel stop at JST last August and there was no landing fee. It might be only for commercial ops or only for twins.
 
ebykowsky said:
Flying into KJST today in the club 152, controller tells me "Check gear down". Turns out I forgot to retract them after takeoff! :eek: I had a pretty good chuckle at that one.
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During my instrument check ride the examiner had a pretty good chuckle when I did a full GUMPS check when needed even though I did my check ride in a AA5B Tiger.

What he didnt know was that I was also putting in regular hours in a complex airplane at the same time, so I would just confirm Gear down and locked, no 3 green but still welded.
 
If you check in on frequency "down and locked" along with your call sign, it sometimes forestalls the reminder.
 
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