Cheapest IFR GPS setup (Feb 2010)

Exocetid

Exocetid

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Exocetid
Hello all,

Any comments on the cheapest route to equipping a plane for IFR GPS?

I dated the title because the results of this query are clearly time sensitive.

I have two VOR CDI's in my panel, one with glideslope, an ADF (not working), a DME and a Marker Beacon receiver. My plane is IFR cert, but as I begin my IFR training, I'd like to just ditch the whole sloppy mess and do GPS.

I have been advised to buy a GNS 430, but the price of those is obscene. Isn't there a cheaper way to do this?
 
The thing it is the install that really costs the big $$. You can get a less expensive GPS, a KLN89B or KLN94 is a nice GPS that will be way less than a new Garmin unit, but we are still talking about $4 to $5k for the install.

I had a KLN90B and upgraded last year to the 430W. Even though I had the correct CDI it still cost me a lot to add in the 430W.

Something to consider and putting in the 430w will make you plane more attractive to any buyers in the future.

As for training....

Well being /G does not mean you get to skip over how to do other approaches. Even if you had the coolest GPS set up an CFI-I worth his salt would 'INOP' your GPS.... a LOT! This is to see if you can really fly on the gauges and have a handle on sit awareness.
 
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I looked into used GPS's but the cost of having it installed and IFR certified comes very close to the cost of the 430.

The steam gauges aren't that bad to learn on. I also do practice GPS approaches with the 196. It insures I'll remember how to do them if I ever get the 430 or lose my electrical and have to depend on the 196 for guidance.
 
As someone else who is now working on the IR, I'd suggest you keep yourself /A until you get the add on. Then worry about the /G ... One less thing to be tested on when it's time.
 
wpierce said:
As someone else who is now working on the IR, I'd suggest you keep yourself /A until you get the add on. Then worry about the /G ... One less thing to be tested on when it's time.
Click to expand...

I would suggest the training as /A, but that's because GPS is stupidly easy and you want to have the training of flying /A so you know how to do it. Do I ever do it now? No, but I sure am glad I know how to.

My suggestion: Get the GPS, train with it, but train with it flying as a /A plane, needles and all. Use the GPS for approaches with a minimal amount of direct whatever. That when when you're let loose, you'll know how to do all of that good stuff.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I would suggest the training as /A, but that's because GPS is stupidly easy and you want to have the training of flying /A so you know how to do it. Do I ever do it now? No, but I sure am glad I know how to.

My suggestion: Get the GPS, train with it, but train with it flying as a /A plane, needles and all. Use the GPS for approaches with a minimal amount of direct whatever. That when when you're let loose, you'll know how to do all of that good stuff.
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/A is really helpful on that day you go to fly IFR and realize you forget to update the dB and your computer is at home!! Doh! File /A and off you go!

I even have had to fly /U in IMC in some planes and was very happy it was a non-event.
 
/A is a luxury. i spent a lot of time training and giving training in /U. I just thought it was fun.

but now that im old i'll take the club plane with the 430W if I can get it.
 
The 430W (NOT the 430) is the cheapest route. You retain half of it's value when you sell, and to boot, you attract a wider field of buyers.

Think BIG picture:

Additionally, it'll be supported several years down the road.
And a few more years after that, the ADS-B squitter will be available to help in the transition to ADS-B
 
bbchien said:
The 430W (NOT the 430) is the cheapest route. You retain half of it's value when you sell, and to boot, you attract a wider field of buyers.

Think BIG picture:

Additionally, it'll be supported several years down the road.
And a few more years after that, the ADS-B squitter will be available to help in the transition to ADS-B
Click to expand...

What Bruce said. When I saw the subject line, my thought was "You want best VALUE, not cheapest." The cost of the unit is not the big cost, the installation is. Figure if you're going to spend $5K on installation no matter what you get, you'll get the most out of that $5K if you get a nice unit. Sure, you could put in a Northstar M3 or an Apollo GX55, but you won't get any of that back when you sell the plane, and you won't get nearly as much capability as you will with a 430W. The 430W will definitely make your plane easier to sell as well, when the time comes.
 
wpierce said:
As someone else who is now working on the IR, I'd suggest you keep yourself /A until you get the add on. Then worry about the /G ... One less thing to be tested on when it's time.
Click to expand...
Speaking as one who gives instrument training for a living, that's excellent advice.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My suggestion: Get the GPS, train with it, but train with it flying as a /A plane, needles and all. Use the GPS for approaches with a minimal amount of direct whatever. That when when you're let loose, you'll know how to do all of that good stuff.
Click to expand...
You don't have that option if you have an IFR GPS installed -- you must be able to perform any task that GPS can do, and the examiner is required you to test you on it.
 
Is this forum great or what!!!??

Thanks to all for excellent advice!!

Of course, now new questions have arose, but first let me say that I do not necessarily equate cheap with low quality or safety degrading. Cheap just means that bell and whistles, nice to have but not essential features, may be lacking :smile:

That said, I am now very confused about /U. How do you land without a GPS, DME, ADF, ILS, or VOR in IMC?
 
Exocetid said:
That said, I am now very confused about /U. How do you land without a GPS, DME, ADF, ILS, or VOR in IMC?
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Who says you don't have any of that? For example, the 172 I started instrument training in had 2 Nav radios, 1 glideslope, and 1 ADF. No DME or GPS. That's /U. Add DME, it's /A. Add a "whiz wheel" RNAV like the KNS 80 and it's /I. Put in an IFR Enroute GPS like the GX55 and it's /G.

Interestingly, there is no separate letter for approach approved GPS - That's why you've gotta ask for a GPS approach - It won't (or shouldn't) be offered otherwise, even if you're /G.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Who says you don't have any of that? For example, the 172 I started instrument training in had 2 Nav radios, 1 glideslope, and 1 ADF. No DME or GPS. That's /U. Add DME, it's /A. Add a "whiz wheel" RNAV like the KNS 80 and it's /I. Put in an IFR Enroute GPS like the GX55 and it's /G.

Interestingly, there is no separate letter for approach approved GPS - That's why you've gotta ask for a GPS approach - It won't (or shouldn't) be offered otherwise, even if you're /G.
Click to expand...

I think the fog is lifting for me....

So, you are enroute to a destination. The weather at your destination, the navaids on each runway and the equipment in your plane dictate whether or not you can land there--no?

If you are /U and your ADF and GS are out, so you only have a VOR, you can only pop out of the clouds and land VFR? Is this the non-precision approach?
 
Exocetid said:
If you are /U and your ADF and GS are out, so you only have a VOR, you can only pop out of the clouds and land VFR?
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There are published instrument approach procedures based solely on VOR. In addition, the localizer portion of an ILS approach ("LOC") is received by the regular VOR nav receiver, so you can fly an ILS approach to the higher "localizer only" minimums. Thus, if you only have VOR in the plane, you have to find an airport with a VOR or LOC approach -- and most airports with approaches have at least one of those. Read your AIM Section 1-1 for more on the various sorts of navaids and how they work.
Is this the non-precision approach?
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All approaches without vertical guidance (including VOR, LOC, ADF/NDB, and GPS, as well as the ASR approaches guided by ground radar) are considered "nonprecision." ILS (which has GS) and PAR (ground radar-guided with vertical guidance) are considered "precision."
 
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dmccormack said:
Unless...

INOP happens to be on the face of the GPS.
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...and the GPS has been deactivated by a repairman with the deactivation logged in the aircraft logbooks. See the new IR PTS. Just pasting a sticker on the unit (a popular trick with ADF's for some time) is no longer an option -- the FAA caught on to that trick.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and the GPS has been deactivated by a repairman with the deactivation logged in the aircraft logbooks. See the new IR PTS. Just pasting a sticker on the unit (a popular trick with ADF's for some time) is no longer an option -- the FAA caught on to that trick.
Click to expand...

What if the data card is missing? How does that require a maintenance log?

Off topic -- how much snow do you have there on the Eastern Shore, Ron?
 
Eastern shore is reporting about 9 inches but over here on the western shore ( Annapolis ) it's more like 20 inches and still snowing. I WANT SPRING TO BE HERE!
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't have that option if you have an IFR GPS installed -- you must be able to perform any task that GPS can do, and the examiner is required you to test you on it.
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem with that. Your students should be able to perform those tasks.

I trained on a /A airplane. I'm glad I can fly /A and /U properly and am glad of it. I also wish that I had gotten more /G work during my IFR training. If your plane can do it all, then you'll train accordingly. I think it's a lot easier to neglect some training on the GPS when you just have it installed vs. have a need to train on it in preparation for a checkride.
 
Ron Levy said:
All approaches without vertical guidance (including VOR, LOC, ADF/NDB, and GPS, as well as the ASR approaches guided by ground radar) are considered "nonprecision." ILS (which has GS) and PAR (ground radar-guided with vertical guidance) are considered "precision."
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To also clarify and expand on what Ron has stated, a GPS with vertical guidance is still also a non-precision approach. At least for the time being.
 
dmccormack said:
What if the data card is missing? How does that require a maintenance log?
Click to expand...

The Flight Manual Supplement for the IFR GPS should discuss out of date data cards or missing data cards. From the GNS 530 FMS:

IFR enroute and terminal navigation predicated upon the GNS 530’s GPS
Receiver is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.
 
When I took my IR checkride we booked a plane with GPS and no ADF for simplicities sake since all the rentals had a GPS.

I had to wait for the data update to be installed before the checkride since everything expired the day before and we scrubbed that checkride date due to weather.

When the CFI and I went out to check the plane and pickup the paperwork we caught it and waited for the update to be installed.

I also had to buy a new set of charts that day.
 
jtheune said:
Eastern shore is reporting about 9 inches but over here on the western shore ( Annapolis ) it's more like 20 inches and still snowing. I WANT SPRING TO BE HERE!
Click to expand...


Yikes!

We have about 18" here.. and still snowing.

It's a heavy, wet snow and I'm wondering what the current load on my roof is.

:eek:
 
dmccormack said:
What if the data card is missing? How does that require a maintenance log?
Click to expand...
The PTS says that if there's an IFR GPS installed, you must have a current database, so if the data card is missing, the practical test is terminated when the examiner discovers that.
Off topic -- how much snow do you have there on the Eastern Shore, Ron?
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Here in Salisbury we have about 8 inches on the ground (but not on my driveway, which I just shoveled), and more coming down. I hear there's a lot more up in Delaware.
 
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smigaldi said:
To also clarify and expand on what Ron has stated, a GPS with vertical guidance is still also a non-precision approach. At least for the time being.
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However, the new IR PTS allows use of a WAAS GPS LPV approach to sub for the ILS for the one required precision approach even though it's technically a nonprecision approach. No such exemption for LNAV+V.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
The Flight Manual Supplement for the IFR GPS should discuss out of date data cards or missing data cards. From the GNS 530 FMS:

IFR enroute and terminal navigation predicated upon the GNS 530’s GPS
Receiver is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.
Click to expand...
That works for routine IFR flying if there's a data card in the unit (if not, there's no data to verify), but isn't acceptable for an IR practical test or IPC because the IR PTS specifically requires a current database if you have an IFR GPS installed.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Who says you don't have any of that? For example, the 172 I started instrument training in had 2 Nav radios, 1 glideslope, and 1 ADF. No DME or GPS. That's /U. Add DME, it's /A. Add a "whiz wheel" RNAV like the KNS 80 and it's /I. Put in an IFR Enroute GPS like the GX55 and it's /G.
Click to expand...
Just to be picky, to be /U you also have to have a Mode C transponder. No transponder is /X, a transponder without Mode C is /T. The /A, I, and /G suffixes also assume you have a Mode C transponder. There are different suffixes for DME, RNAV, and IFR GPS when you don't have a transponder or you have a transponder without Mode C. Too many to remember -- unfortunately the FAA does ask you about them on the instrument written.

Interestingly, there is no separate letter for approach approved GPS - That's why you've gotta ask for a GPS approach - It won't (or shouldn't) be offered otherwise, even if you're /G.
Click to expand...
Interesting! I never knew that.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and the GPS has been deactivated by a repairman with the deactivation logged in the aircraft logbooks. See the new IR PTS. Just pasting a sticker on the unit (a popular trick with ADF's for some time) is no longer an option -- the FAA caught on to that trick.
Click to expand...

So, if I take my GPS out to hook it up at home to a desktop GPS training interface I need freaking log entry to turn an allen wrench to the left?
 
A Garmin 155XL is still a decent option...Fully IFR certified..I just had a demo unit put in a Bonanza to replace the worthless KLN-90A. Less that 3k installed. I have seen many of these units (new or refurbished) far below retail at many avionics shops..


Cheap nice setup Garmin 155XL with interfaced Argus 5000 Moving map/rmi
 
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EdFred said:
So, if I take my GPS out to hook it up at home to a desktop GPS training interface I need freaking log entry to turn an allen wrench to the left?
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Or to update the card on some older models?....Give me a break
 
Of course, the data card can be up to date, but for some pesky reason it just won't pick up GPS signal. Or save the sticker that says "for VFR USE only" that comes with them until you flight test them.
 
azure said:
Just to be picky, to be /U you also have to have a Mode C transponder. No transponder is /X, a transponder without Mode C is /T. The /A, I, and /G suffixes also assume you have a Mode C transponder. There are different suffixes for DME, RNAV, and IFR GPS when you don't have a transponder or you have a transponder without Mode C. Too many to remember -- unfortunately the FAA does ask you about them on the instrument written.
Click to expand...

True... I wonder how many people are actually flying IFR without a Mode C transponder these days? Probably approximately none... I bet some of those non-transponder equipment suffixes will be "repurposed" eventually. :yes:
 
EdFred said:
So, if I take my GPS out to hook it up at home to a desktop GPS training interface I need freaking log entry to turn an allen wrench to the left?
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Yup -- it's "preventive maintenance" to remove/replace a tray-mounted radio, and PM must be logged. See Part 43 -- item (31) in section (c) of Appendix A, and paragraph (a) of section 43.9.
 
taters said:
Or to update the card on some older models?....Give me a break
Click to expand...
To update the card on any model installed GPS, even VFR-only. See item (32) in section (c) of Appendix A to Part 43, and 43.9(a) -- updating your installed GPS database is preventive maintenance which must be logged. So far, the FAA is only informing folks about that, but they've been doing so for a couple of years now, and eventually the day will come when they will move to enforcing instead of informing. Personally, I keep track of GPS updates in a little "avionics log" in my glove box, where I also track 91.171 VOR checks, but that's not the only acceptable solution.
 
EdFred said:
Of course, the data card can be up to date, but for some pesky reason it just won't pick up GPS signal. Or save the sticker that says "for VFR USE only" that comes with them until you flight test them.
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That'll look good when the examiner checks the paperwork and finds you have a VFR-only sticker on an IFR-approved GPS. Seems to me that would likely end the practical test in an unpleasant manner.
 
Ron Levy said:
That'll look good when the examiner checks the paperwork and finds you have a VFR-only sticker on an IFR-approved GPS. Seems to me that would likely end the practical test in an unpleasant manner.
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I flew my 430 for over a month before I was able to finally get it flight checked for use under IFR. It had this little sticker FROM THE FACTORY saying "For VFR use only."

What's the examiner going to check? After we did the flight check nothing was signed off, and holy hell, it even passed 3 more annual inspections and another IFR certification.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yup -- it's "preventive maintenance" to remove/replace a tray-mounted radio, and PM must be logged. See Part 43 -- item (31) in section (c) of Appendix A, and paragraph (a) of section 43.9.
Click to expand...

Prove I took it out, and what preventative maintenance am I doing?
 
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