Cheap Annual Inspection

brien23

brien23

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May 31, 2005
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Brien
Guy comes around our airport offering Annual inspections for $100. Spends about an hour looking at the aircraft then signs off the annuals as "100hour annual inspection found in airworthy condition" and he signs it off as a A&P not IA . What gets me is that several people think that is ok as he is an A&P I am not sure he is evean an A&P as nobody has seen his license or can read his signature in the signoff.
 
PT Barnum knew what he was talking about. Don't suppose anyone's going to mention this to the local FSDO?
 
brien23 said:
Guy comes around our airport offering Annual inspections for $100. Spends about an hour looking at the aircraft then signs off the annuals as "100hour annual inspection found in airworthy condition" and he signs it off as a A&P not IA . What gets me is that several people think that is ok as he is an A&P I am not sure he is evean an A&P as nobody has seen his license or can read his signature in the signoff.
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he's probably got the best liability insurance I've ever heard of,, no one knows who he is.
 
brien23 said:
Guy comes around our airport offering Annual inspections for $100. Spends about an hour looking at the aircraft then signs off the annuals as "100hour annual inspection found in airworthy condition" and he signs it off as a A&P not IA . What gets me is that several people think that is ok as he is an A&P I am not sure he is evean an A&P as nobody has seen his license or can read his signature in the signoff.
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Oooh, can I buy two?
 
Ron Levy said:
PT Barnum knew what he was talking about. Don't suppose anyone's going to mention this to the local FSDO?
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What would you tell FSDO?

You don't know his name, you have a happy owner and a guy who is 100.00 richer.

What would worries me more is he might use my name.
 
Doesn't he have to put his certificate # in the log as well? Or is that illegible too?

John
 
This is one of the byproducts of a down economy, the shysters come crawling out from under their rocks to take advantage of people who are having a tough time making it. This is the time of the scammers.

John
 
John Baker said:
This is one of the byproducts of a down economy, the shysters come crawling out from under their rocks to take advantage of people who are having a tough time making it. This is the time of the scammers.

John
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If this guy were looking for work, an annual is the place to make it.

" Ho Look at this, it must be repaired before I can sign it off."
 
Tom-D said:
If this guy were looking for work, an annual is the place to make it.

" Ho Look at this, it must be repaired before I can sign it off."
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Exactly -- $100 is actually fine for the inspection IF the owner removes all inspection plates, cowling, carpet, etc.

It's what's found during the annual that runs up the bill....
 
dmccormack said:
Exactly -- $100 is actually fine for the inspection IF the owner removes all inspection plates, cowling, carpet, etc.

It's what's found during the annual that runs up the bill....
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WE also have an A&P-IA that works for free at OKH.. And it ain't me. :)
 
jsstevens said:
Doesn't he have to put his certificate # in the log as well? Or is that illegible too?

John
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Yes.

For those owners getting that "cheap" inspection they should remember a key point: If it's discovered that this mechanic doesn't possess a valid A&P or have an IA rating they will be left "holding the bag" violation wise as it's the owner's responsibility for inspections performed as well as securing the proper sign offs.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Yes.

For those owners getting that "cheap" inspection they should remember a key point: If it's discovered that this mechanic doesn't possess a valid A&P or have an IA rating they will be left "holding the bag" violation wise as it's the owner's responsibility for inspections performed as well as securing the proper sign offs.
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I've doing this annual inspection thing for a while now, and have never been asked for my certificate or my number.
 
Tom-D said:
I've doing this annual inspection thing for a while now, and have never been asked for my certificate or my number.
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If you signed my log book w/o a certificate number and a legible name I'd get very uppity about it.
 
If he's not an IA he has no business using the word "annual" in the description.
Otherwise the scope of the annual and 100 hour are the same.

However an hour would seem laughable no matter how much prep work the owner did first, especially if he is gong beyond the requirements of the annual and actually certify it is airworthy. It's one thing to state you performed the inspection, but you can't return it to service without actually running the engine, etc...

It would take an hour worth of bookwork to even make sure you were meeting the requirements of Part 43 on most aircraft. You mgiht be able to otherwise do it if it was a stock recent aircraft without any additional equipment installed or modified.
 
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See, the problem is this.

I don't want to get screwed on my annual, and I want to spend as little money as possible.

But, after you get past the easy stuff - taking off and reinstalling inspection covers and the like - the only way you can actually save on an annual, is to have it be less-thorough. And... the only thing worse than the IA finding trouble, is the trouble remaining unfound.

Hundred bucks? I don't think so.
 
SCCutler said:
See, the problem is this.

I don't want to get screwed on my annual, and I want to spend as little money as possible.

But, after you get past the easy stuff - taking off and reinstalling inspection covers and the like - the only way you can actually save on an annual, is to have it be less-thorough. And... the only thing worse than the IA finding trouble, is the trouble remaining unfound.

Hundred bucks? I don't think so.
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Right.

I used to hear hangar chatter about this A&P and that.

"Oh that guy's expensive!" or "He finds all sorts of stuff..."

I finally went to him since he was on my local field. He sure does find stuff -- and I sure am glad.

Oh -- and he lets me assist on inspections and maintenance. Want to spend less money and learn more about your aircraft and be less surprised next annual?

Do owner assisted maintenance.
 
Tom-D said:
I've doing this annual inspection thing for a while now, and have never been asked for my certificate or my number.
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You sure about that?
Sec. 43.11

Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and Sec. Sec. 135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.

(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, Sec. 135.411(a)(1), or Sec. 135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
3) The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.
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flyingron said:
If he's not an IA he has no business using the word "annual" in the description.
Otherwise the scope of the annual and 100 hour are the same.

However an hour would seem laughable no matter how much prep work the owner did first, especially if he is gong beyond the requirements of the annual and actually certify it is airworthy. It's one thing to state you performed the inspection, but you can't return it to service without actually running the engine, etc...

It would take an hour worth of bookwork to even make sure you were meeting the requirements of Part 43 on most aircraft. You mgiht be able to otherwise do it if it was a stock recent aircraft without any additional equipment installed or modified.
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How long does it require a pilot to inspect and declare the aircraft airworthy during a preflight?
 
Tom-D said:
How long does it require a pilot to inspect and declare the aircraft airworthy during a preflight?
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Pilots are not required to perform all the actions listed in Appendix D to Part 43 in order to meet the FAA's standards for an effective preflight inspection. Heck, this part of an annual alone:
(3) Internal engine--for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.
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...is probably going to take most of an hour by itself, and I don't think anyone in the FAA would say that's required for a pilot's preflight inspection.
 
Well the biggest way you save on annual is not having the IA have to do tons of maintenance during the actual annual process itself. This means being on top of maintainance before the annual and to have the mechanic prepare the discrepancy list and perhaps have someone else (or yourself) deal with them before returning to service.
 
Tom-D said:
I've doing this annual inspection thing for a while now, and have never been asked for my certificate or my number.
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Old man Grove (Grove Field, Camas WA,) signed off annuals for 5 decades. Built and re-build many many airplanes. After he died the FAA found out he was never a mechanic at all. He did a lot of quality work for me.

The FAA was so pi$$ed that they took the name of his airport away for a few years. But local sentiment overruled and he go his name back on his turf several years later.
 
Ron Levy said:
Pilots are not required to perform all the actions listed in Appendix D to Part 43 in order to meet the FAA's standards for an effective preflight inspection. Heck, this part of an annual alone:

...is probably going to take most of an hour by itself, and I don't think anyone in the FAA would say that's required for a pilot's preflight inspection.
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Note that there are other requirements NOT in appendix D as well.
 
kgruber said:
The FAA was so pi$$ed that they took the name of his airport away for a few years. But local sentiment overruled and he go his name back on his turf several years later.
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Since when does the FAA has any authority on airport naming?
 
kgruber said:
Old man Grove (Grove Field, Camas WA,) signed off annuals for 5 decades. Built and re-build many many airplanes. After he died the FAA found out he was never a mechanic at all. He did a lot of quality work for me.

The FAA was so pi$$ed that they took the name of his airport away for a few years. But local sentiment overruled and he go his name back on his turf several years later.
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That is a very interesting enforcement action. I guess it could have been worse.
 
Ron Levy said:
Pilots are not required to perform all the actions listed in Appendix D to Part 43 in order to meet the FAA's standards for an effective preflight inspection. Heck, this part of an annual alone:

...is probably going to take most of an hour by itself, and I don't think anyone in the FAA would say that's required for a pilot's preflight inspection.
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We must remember that airworthiness has 2 parts. the pilot must determine if the aircraft is in a condition for safe flight,

would it be in that condition after a 1 hour annual inspection?
 
Tom-D said:
he's probably got the best liability insurance I've ever heard of,, no one knows who he is.
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Until one of the planes he signs off crashes and he shows up later at the airport looking for more work.....
 
SCCutler said:
See, the problem is this.

I don't want to get screwed on my annual, and I want to spend as little money as possible.

But, after you get past the easy stuff - taking off and reinstalling inspection covers and the like - the only way you can actually save on an annual, is to have it be less-thorough. And... the only thing worse than the IA finding trouble, is the trouble remaining unfound.

Hundred bucks? I don't think so.
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There's a question with "thorough," though. You can always find something to fix if you look hard enough. The question is how much do you want people to look? Yes, you want them to find the safety and reliability issues, but do you want them to disassemble the entire aircraft to look for every little possible problem? And how many items do you want replaced "While we're there..." or "It's a good idea..."

This guy, though, should be caught and appropriately punished. Sad part is that it probably won't happen.

Ron Levy said:
You sure about that?
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How many times have you been asked by a client for your certificate? Yes, you've written it in their logbooks, but have you had to pull your certificate out to prove it to them, and how many of them have actually read the number and looked you up in the FAA database? None of my clients have ever asked to see proof of my qualifications, but you do have more years and many more clients you've dealt with, so perhaps your situation has been different.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This guy, though, should be caught and appropriately punished. Sad part is that it probably won't happen.
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Maybe, but if this is really going on, it is only a matter of time before he signs off something that ends up getting the cheap knucklehead owner (or someone else) killed. Then it will catch up to him.
 
Ron Levy said:
You sure about that?
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I'm quite sure I have been doing it for a while.

I'm sure no one has said they wanted to see my certificate.

but yes they do want to see me write it in their records. but how do they know I wrote the correct number?

Have you ever asked for your A&P-IAs certificate? You must know they are required to display it when asked, where ever they do their A&P-IA thing.

And Remember the little blue card that says A&P and has Orvil's and Wilber's picture on it, is not the IA certificate. the yellow card with their PMI's signature on it is. I know several IAs that are not renewed and still carry the yellow card.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm quite sure I have been doing it for a while.

I'm sure no one has said they wanted to see my certificate.
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He said certificate number, which I'm pretty sure you put in every log entry for an annual inspection, and that is what he and I were talking about.
 
Ron Levy said:
He said certificate number, which I'm pretty sure you put in every log entry for an annual inspection, and that is what he and I were talking about.
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The point was, none of my customers has asked...... !

The only one who wants to see my certificate is My PMI every two years, and I don't know how much want there is in the occasion.
 
Ron Levy said:
He said certificate number, which I'm pretty sure you put in every log entry for an annual inspection, and that is what he and I were talking about.
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Would any of your students know if you placed the wrong number in their book....?
 
Tom-D said:
Name one, besides the compliance with part 39, I'll give ya that one.
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Use of a checklist, which is specified in 43.15(b), not Appendix D. In addition, 43.15(a) says the inspection must ensure the aircraft "meets all applicable airworthiness requirements," which may go beyond AD's, and may, for example, require reference to type certificate data to determine limited life component status.
 
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