Chatting while flying and "fingers"

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by PeterNSteinmetz, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    Given the last discussion of the use of fingers frequencies, I decided to figure out exactly what the laws, regulations, and regulatory bodies are which govern the use of 123.4, 123.45, and 122.75 Mhz.

    I put up a page with the gory detail at http://steinmetz.org/peter/flying/FingersFreq.html .

    The short version is - there are no frequencies for just chatting about the ballgame in the US and use of fingers for items other than flight test could result in an enforcement action by the FCC (but no known cases); 122.75 Mhz can be used for discussing items related to the flight.

    Let's keep it civil folks, lest the lock hammer comes down.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
    nauga and Sinistar like this.
  2. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,362
    Location:
    Rockwood Storage Facility
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mantis Toboggan, MD
    Believe us now? ETA: Thanks for posting the summary.

    Nauga,
    as assigned
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
    PeterNSteinmetz and Cap'n Jack like this.
  3. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    Well, I still haven't heard if he ever attempted to just request a change. But it does seem like it would be difficult.
     
  4. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    Good on ya for manning up and admitting that Jim had a legitimate beef. Bravo.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  5. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    No question he has a legitimate beef. Sounds like he has had it for some time! The practical question for him is just how to fix it?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  6. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,245
    Location:
    Saratoga, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    arnoha
    I had to go hunting for the other thread, as I clicked on this one about fingers. My CFI, years ago, underlined that fingers is not a chat freq. So, I knew what to expect in Peter's post at the top...I've read most of that before.

    But then I read the original thread. It was interesting watching personalities unfold. I've watched a few of these personalities on PoA for a while...I tend to be a lurker and only really post to say something. I also post only about half the stuff I write. It's interesting to come back to a thread and realize that I've got a draft that been sitting there for a while that I forgot about!

    Everyone really engaging in the argument was right. And all those folks for were also wrong. There's a tendency to assume that there's a fairly black-and-white right and wrong. And we see our own actions as justified and others at friction with those as wrong. Not true, though. Everyone engaged had deficiencies in the way they were communicating. Everyone also had valid points. (Probably my deficiency in this communication is making it at all...why am I poking my nose in?)

    I think about my dad when seeing some of these conversations. He was bright, perhaps brilliant. An EE by trade with specializations in low-noise, high-precision analog work. Lots of instrumentation and the like. He was a consultant, which was an odd choice for him: he was perpetually insecure about finances, so the uncertainty of consulting work made him unrelentingly stressed. He was a consultant because he was difficult to work with for long periods of time. Today, his personality traits would probably slot him somewhere on the spectrum: he was entirely blind to other's perspective or emotions. He wasn't mean, he didn't play politics, he was loyal and upstanding with strong ethics. But he was also stubborn, clueless, and unpleasant to talk to. To make it worse, because he was so intelligent, he was usually absolutely correct about whatever he was on about. I'm sure I take after him.

    As pilots and aircraft owners, I believe we probably are more prone to such traits in various ratios. For a number of reasons, we tend toward being leaders used to getting our way. We tend toward being on the intelligent and forward side, used to being correct. We tend toward being quite wealthy and being used to not having to moderate ourselves. While generally valued traits, stick a bunch of people all with these same traits in a room and there will be sparks on occasion.
     
    Brad Z and Kynadog like this.
  7. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    12,203
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Just call your buddy with your mobile phone. Chat all day long and don't bother a soul.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    PeterNSteinmetz and PaulS like this.
  8. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    Yes, I find that the bottom of my shoes are almost never bothered by my chatting on my mobile phone
     
  9. weirdjim

    weirdjim Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA (KGOO)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    weirdjim
    Coors Silver Bullet airshow performance, Marysville airport, sometime around 2012.

    Jim
     
  10. bluesky74656

    bluesky74656 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Location:
    Brecksville, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Todd Kooser
    Sounds like anyone who wants to chat in an airplane should get a ham license and pick an available frequency outside the aviation band.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  11. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    Any further hints to a source? A search of the FCC enforcement actions in 2012 and 2013 for something in Ohio (like Marysville OH) or California (like Marysville CA) does not yield actions for Coors or likely cases in individual names. Google searches on various terms related to this only turn up the two prior mentions of this incident here on PoA by weirdjim. No other evidence that I can find.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  12. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    The fact is, FCC enforcement takes a very long time, even when the culprit is running a fixed base station. Trying to determine who keyed a mic in an airplane would be hard to prove on a one time offense unless the n numbers were used. I can sympathize with Jim..we are both seasoned amateur radio operators. During the crazy times we live in these days....most governmental agencies are practicing social distancing and working from home. I have no good solution to this problem other than try again...sorry.
     
  13. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,501
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Amanda Hugandkiss
    Guess all the transatlantic flights that use finchers to chat on are in deep doodoo.
     
  14. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    10,283
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    Not really. 123.45 is an authorized frequency for air to air communications in oceanic airspace.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  15. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Lots of ham pilots do make ham QSOs from aircraft, but that's not a convenient way to chat with a buddy en route to a fly-in if he's not a ham, also.

    What about FRS radios? In the air I think they'd work over a fair distance. I've used them in cars while traveling in caravans of 3 or 4 vehicles and they work decently over a mile or two. Being UHF, they're pretty much LOS radios, but in the air it wouldn't surprise me to get good comms at 10 miles or more, which might be enough if you're just flying somewhere with a friend in a loose "same sky, same day" formation.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz and Doug Reid like this.
  16. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    While this is true, I would have expected an enforcement action from 2012 to have shown up by now. There is no good evidence so far that there has been an enforcement action taken by the FCC for the improper use of 123.4 or 123.45 MHz.
     
  17. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,636
    Location:
    Tempe, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PeterNSteinmetz
    How would those work with a headset? It seems like the noise in the cockpit would be a deterrent to use without a headset.
     
  18. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    The radio audio output can be plugged into your audio panel or the aux jack on your headset. Hold the radio to your mouth to talk. Or maybe Y your headset mic to the FRS mic input and your normal input jack.
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  19. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Oh, and if you don’t have an aux input, you can always wear earphones under your headset ear cups.
     
  20. OneCharlieTango

    OneCharlieTango Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OneCharlieTango
  21. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,637
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    But everyone is still gonna use 123.45.
     
  22. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.
  23. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,129
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    I have done that from a Citation using a handheld and woke up repeaters all over the northwest.
     
  24. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    Which would make me even more convinced that an FRS radio would carry a considerable distance used plane to plane.
     
  25. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    That should work just fine, IMHO.
     
  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    23,583
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Can you post a link to where you found it?
     
  27. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,245
    Location:
    Saratoga, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    arnoha
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  28. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,477
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    Powered paragliders commonly use FRS radios, or at least they did when I was active in that end of aviation. Unpowered paragliders and hang gliders often use the 2M ham band, though USHPA has some frequencies that don't require a ham license in the VHF business band as well.
     
  29. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    How well did FRS work?
     
  30. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2017
    Messages:
    841
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hang 4
    FRS was horrible for Hang Gliding. It might be better now. If you were near a ski area, theme park or state park, it was full of kids and parents asking where each other were and what they wanted for lunch. Then when every one stepped on everyone else, they started complaining about their "private channel" arrgh.. That's when I got my amateur ticket. Lot's of 2M simplex frequencies with no one on them and real equipment. With a simple stripped coax dipole I can reach a car 50 miles away and another glider >100 miles out.
     
  31. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,477
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    Not too bad, as long as you could find a clear channel. We didn't have too much trouble but I can see how it would be a problem in more populated areas. The range wasn't great, though, and of course you have to deal with the wind and 2-stroke noise that makes it a challenge to be understood.
     
  32. arnoha

    arnoha Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,245
    Location:
    Saratoga, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    arnoha
    Was this before or after the GMRS/FRS rules merge?
     
  33. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,477
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    When was that? Before, I guess. Some guys used GMRS even though they weren't supposed to.
     
  34. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    12,538
    Location:
    high desert NM
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    When I flew air ambulance, on late night trips I would just flip through the frequencies. Every now and then I would come up on some very interesting conversations....
     
    PeterNSteinmetz likes this.