Charter ops.

[Arnold]

It looks like the issues are pretty well hashed out. Just to recap.

My first point: If you want to avoid the boss/chief pilot being upset with you for what you've said to the customer, then don't talk to the customer let the boss do it. I was not suggesting people don't talk to customers, simply that they insulate themselves from wrathful management by kicking the can up the chain of command. This is not the same as don't talk to the customer. Each management team is going to have its own ideas about who should say what to the customer. My preference as C.P. was to always insulate my pilots from the people who would unduly pressure them to fly, and that was usually another department.

My second point: If you are flying 135 it is your job to fly when it is lawful to do so. If you are going to need to shoot a Cat 1 ILS to RVR 2400 when you get there, then unlike the amateur pilot who can say, he's not comfortable with shooting an approach that low, you as a professional are expected to complete the trip UNLESS there are other factors which would make the flight illegal or unsafe. If the other factor is "those are below my personal minimums" that is fine, don't fly. I'd suggest having that personal mins discussion with management before you invoke it for the first time. It should be noted that even 121 Captains have "high mins" when they are new to the aircraft they are flying. That all being said, don't be too surprised if the "personal mins" discussion ends with a polite thank you for your honesty and a pink slip. No C.P. wants a pilot who is uncomfortable with the job so they will sincerely appreciate your honesty, but they generally need a pilot who can do the job, so you may find yourself looking for work.

Not everyone is cut out to be a professional pilot. There is no shame in giving it a try and deciding it is not for you. Again this is not directed at any person in particular.

 

[Ted]

My second point: If you are flying 135 it is your job to fly when it is lawful to do so. If you are going to need to shoot a Cat 1 ILS to RVR 2400 when you get there, then unlike the amateur pilot who can say, he's not comfortable with shooting an approach that low, you as a professional are expected to complete the trip UNLESS there are other factors which would make the flight illegal or unsafe. If the other factor is "those are below my personal minimums" that is fine, don't fly. I'd suggest having that personal mins discussion with management before you invoke it for the first time. It should be noted that even 121 Captains have "high mins" when they are new to the aircraft they are flying. That all being said, don't be too surprised if the "personal mins" discussion ends with a polite thank you for your honesty and a pink slip. No C.P. wants a pilot who is uncomfortable with the job so they will sincerely appreciate your honesty, but they generally need a pilot who can do the job, so you may find yourself looking for work.

I fully agree with this. Of course, it's not 100% consistent. It surprised me what my chief pilot wasn't willing to fly in. His personal mins were well above the legal mins, and he didn't like flying in turbulence, rain, etc. He canceled a number of trips, despite his some 4000 hours in type.

As you might expect, the plane I flew was significantly more profitable than the plane he flew.

 

[bbchien]

Arnold, and Bryon- the USN made this one easy. You went. Period. It was wartime, if you wouldn't go, there would be guys dying out in the field. If you didn't go, somebody else would. Your only option was to request the Ops offficer to go with you, and our guy, we weren't that fond of to ask...of course, if it was ridiculous you had the right to ask if the mission was intended to be expendable. You get real insight into what you can and what you cannot do, and that each learns at his own pace.

Heck, this has been going on since the Stearman pilots sought out Elrey Jeppesen's little white book. Jimmy Doolittle had gotten Sperry to manufacture the Turn Co-ordinator.

Those were all Mail Contracts, after all, and no US Mail delivery = no pay, and it was the depression.

Hey, sorta like TODAY.

 

[Lance F]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. All my paid flying has been part 91 which may or not be different than 135 when it comes to go/no go decisions. In a high percentage of this flying I'm the lowly FO, so I'm just observing not deciding.

That being said, what I've observed is that when the owner shows up you close the door and go. That's what's expected. I don't see how personal minimums above legal minimums can work if you're getting paid to fly the trip.

 

[jesse]

I would argue that there are times that one shouldn't go, even if you are 135, and even if legal minimums are being met. Just because you're flying legally doesn't mean you're actually going to get to your destination or that the safety equation really makes sense.

I imagine it's an acquired skill but there are times that you're better off explaining the likelihood you're going to get from A to B without ending up at C. C might not be very friendly to business.

 

[Ted]

I would argue that there are times that one shouldn't go, even if you are 135, and even if legal minimums are being met. Just because you're flying legally doesn't mean you're actually going to get to your destination or that the safety equation really makes sense.

I imagine it's an acquired skill but there are times that you're better off explaining the likelihood you're going to get from A to B without ending up at C. C might not be very friendly to business.

A lot of it does depend on the customer and knowing your customers. I haven't known a single customer who wanted to get somewhere so badly as to tempt fate. However, the expectation is that if it is at all possible/safe to get there, that we go, and I, as PIC, am expected to be capable to handle the airplane in bad conditions. Some customers really hate bumps, and it's better for business to cancel because they'll call you again knowing you won't scare them. Most customers are businessmen trying to get something done, and bumps are just part of the job.

Yes, there are times when it's not the best idea to go even when it's legal/safe. But in 2000 hours (and something like 1800-1900 XC), I can count on one hand the number of times I've ended up at a different destination than intended. With an instrument rating and an aircraft equipped with FIKI/radar, it just doesn't happen that often. And when it has, the reasons have been severe enough that I've received no complaints.

For example, a couple months ago, I was supposed to fly into some airport up in Mass. Some of the worst thunderstorms I've ever seen popped up without warning and very, very fast. Something like 65 dB returns, painting a very distinct red on the radar all over. The receivers had no problems with driving to the next airport over which, oddly enough, was completely clear and VFR.

 

[Dave Theisen]

My first stint in the part 135 world was 1990-1994. Back then it seemed like passengers were more apt to try to pressure you to go when the weather was bad. Since I got back into 5 years ago, it seems like our passengers are more savvy about the weather. Between the Weather Channel and the Internet, our passengers usually cancel before we do.