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Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by exncsurfer, May 6, 2019.
What is WTAF?
I haven’t met any in the wild either. Frankly it just comes down to a business relationship. I have stated how I set the boundaries in another post already. But I am learning a lot about 141 programs that I didn’t know. Very enlightening
My CFI only charges $5K per hr for the short lessons the rest are free. such as: NO! THE OTHER LEFT RUDDER!!
It amazes me a golf or tennis instructor gets paid better than a CFI and their customers don’t complain like some students.
If you don’t like what or how much you are charged go else where, but keep in mind CFIs right now are in short supply and you may have your instructional dollars with no CFI.
Airline pilots also get health insurance, 401(k) programs, paid vacation, paid sick time, a minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours of pay, automatic raises every year, free travel, etc. CFIs usually get none of those things. Maybe one of them if they're lucky.
After your golf lesson, do you pay the pro his hourly instructional rate for every round that you play? Ir even for the very next one where you are using what you were just taught?
No, but he doesn’t sign the score card so you can play and isn’t likely to sued if you wreck the golf cart either.
If you instruct in a military program, a supervisor of flight (SOF) has to be present for all dual instruction and solo.
Under Part 141, a Chief Pilot supervises the training, but does not have to be present during dual instruction. All solo’s are required to have a CFI present to release the flight.
Some schools require a CFI to be present during the solo flight.
Part 61, no one has to be present. You also will not find VA or university students at a Part 61 operation.
It may not be his choice, the flight school may require him to provide and bill for 'supervised solo' for all student solos as some posts in this thread have stated is the case at some flight schools. In the big picture of aviation expense its not gonna make much of a dent anyway. I just looked at my training hours and if I HAD payed dual for solo hours, it would have added less than 6% to my total cost. If you feel you've gotten good instruction I wouldn't get too miffed over it, let it be a discussion before you start your instrument with him(i'm gonna assume you won't be paying dual for solo XCs you fly to get your 50 hours of XC requirements) .
I wasn't starting this thread to complain, I just hadn't seen or heard of it before, now I have.
So I learn better when my CFI is at the airport 100nm away than when he's 110nm away at home?
Just one more reason to avoid Pt. 141 . . . . Military pilots don't generally pay for instruction, so that tidbit means nothing. They wear uniforms, flight suits and helmets and eat in mess halls, too--just as meaningless in this context.
A 30 hour student doesn’t learn better 100 miles away, but if he has to divert, have a mechanical issue or an accident, or just wants to call to ask a question, a CFI is on duty to help out. He won’t be trying to figure out who to call.
I train military students in a military program that don’t eat in mess halls, wear helmets, or wear uniforms, I teach in a 141 school, and I teach part 61.
There nothing magic about any of the 3. Part 61 has lots of advantages and can conducted with very high standards. Most Part 61 schools are operated at bare minimum standards. Some are operated below minimum standards.
There is also a big difference operating a school with 100 private students and a Part 61 CFI with 2 students.
Your money, go where you want. But don’t expect to walk in an set the standards any where you go.
If it a Part 141 school, then the CFI is getting paid is they are required to be there..
Where I learned it was a combination 141/61 school... I was on the 61 tract.. there was always a CFI that worked the dispatch desk at all times.
After I my 150 mile x-country, my instructor signed me off for "Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided..... "subject to the following conditions" .... copy of my flight plan and weather briefing left with the dispatcher which was usually mine or another instructor....
But here is the catch... the first time it was not my instructor working the desk asked me a few questions about Philadelphia Class B airspace because we were pretty close to it to which I answered and "handed me the keys.." I did not get charged for their time..
No they are being paid to learn...
Most you guys pay more for a golf instructor than you do
Most people who attend a pilot school have no idea about the quality of their training. All they know and all they care about is how much it costs and if it is enough to pass the test.
The number of crap Part 61 schools that people think are great is rather alarming.
yea, and the guy flipping burgers at burger king doesnt either most of the time. its called paying your dues.
Sorry what? The argument was that airline pilots work for free, i.e. ground time, so CFIs should too. Except the premise of that argument was incorrect -- I listed the many ways airline pilots are compensated for that time. How does that relate to burger flippers? When are burger flippers expected to work for free? I don't even feel like enumerating the many differences between burger flippers and CFIs, the comparison is fantastically idiotic.
Except when the customer doesn't know any better. Then were back to "scam".
It's not about working for free. It's about ripping people off. And charging students dual for solo cross-country time is ripping them off. If the school wants to pay an instructor $10-15 an hour to sit around reading the paper and dispatching solo flights, cool. If they want to build $5 an hour into the dual rate to compensate for that, cool. Charging a student DUAL Hobbs time when you aren't in the airplane is complete and total BS.
There are a lot of things I can see a justification for. If you want to charge handshake to handshake, whatever. I think that's a bit much, but hey. If you want to charge for a preflight briefing, post-flight debrief, ground school - again, totally get it. My school doesn't do it that way, but I know people and schools that do.
DUAL Hobbs for SOLO flight? Naw, man. Just naw. It ain't right. And you know it isn't.
And the CEO gets better pay than the janitor. Go figure.
I was only discussing pre/postflight time. I've never charged dual during a solo XC and haven't seen it done.
Yeah, go figure. What if somebody said, "the CEO doesn't get time and a half when he works overtime so the janitor shouldn't either." That was more akin to the argument that I was making a counterpoint to.
You attended at well run school and a CFI dispatcher is optimal for safety. The CFI dispatcher job is managing both the students and general aircraft renters. If the dispatcher is doing his job, he monitoring WX, checking logbook endorsements/ restrictions, aircraft maintenance status, ect. All the aircraft renters pay for the CFI dispatcher as part of the rental fee.
Some schools opt to have the CFI dispatcher part time and only charge the primary students for solo and not require students > private or the plane renters to share in that expense.
Some schools do none of the above.
Sure, in a very round about way you can say they’re compensated for ground time, but they’re not ‘on the clock’ in the same fashion as a CFI is. So that’s really an apples to oranges comparison.
$10 - $15 an hour CFI pay, free ground school, free briefings. You need to open a flight school. I will send you students. Good luck hiring instructors for them. The national average for CFIs today is > $30 an hour and most flight schools are hiring.
I think you’re missing the point.
CFI’s should charge for those things. I don’t think anyone is arguing against that fact. No need to pick nits here.
When you posted $10-$15 an hour for CFI pay, you revealed you aren’t clueless. You are totally clueless.
Is this thread going on forever like the starting text in Star Wars ?
Find the post where I said that. It might be a good idea to get your facts straight before you start pointing fingers.
Ah, the TL;DR opener ...
“If the school wants to pay an instructor $10-15 an hour to sit around reading the paper”. In quality flight schools that CFI is making his normal wage so the students and low time pilots aren’t violating student restrictions, flying out of currency or getting themselves in to trouble over weather.
Yeah two different people pal. Get your facts straight before you start pointing fingers.
And I’m the clueless one?
Come on people, it's hard enough to have a civil debate without misunderstanding the other person's argument or mixing up who said what. Then the signal to noise ratio goes down and the whole thing becomes pointless and devolves into bickering.
The school I used to teach at required the CFI to be present and actively tracking the student who was required to be on flight following at all times. By actively monitoring, I mean being expected to call approach/center and ask them to relay instructions if the student exceeded school parameters. We were not allowed to book other students or perform administrative tasks during that time. The school is a perennial distinguished flight school winner and there was a 6-8 week wait list to start ppl training. The school is situated between 3 class C dromes and at an airport with a large University flight school; the associated TRACONs and ARTCCs were completely on board and actually suggested some of these procedures. So yeah, you're GD right I got paid my full rate to babysit.
Gives new meaning to helicopter cfi.
That sounds like a terrible place to learn.
When I was doing my PPL many years ago with an FBO/school that has a single owner/instructor, he charged only Hobbs time. I did most of my ground training myself, however.
My current school CFIs charge more like handshake to handshake. Most are honest and reasonable, but some have tried to double dip or essentially wasted time with useless conversations. I was not happy at first. It took me some time to get used to it and understand how to deal with correctly. Having better understanding of CFI situation helps too. Done legitimately and fairly I’m fine with it
But as a student, I’d be majorly ****ed if I had to pay for an instructor who is not anywhere near me. I would expect them to get paid by school from whatever way they make profit. This is an overhead, plain and simple.
As a student, I’d also probably not know any better, so it would be even more shady. And I’d not come back to the school once I learned that this is a non standard practice. And probably bad mouth it to boot
The only way this would be acceptable in my book is if it was explained to me before I started training in such way that I knew that this is not a standard practice in the industry, but the school does it for such and such reasons. I could go with them if found the school’s argument compelling
And thats the thing. You're a certified flight INSTRUCTOR. If your student is not receiving instruction from you, you shouldn't be charging them. Charging dual Hobbs for solo flight time is an outright ripoff. Period.
So sounds like you were at a pretty big school? So if you had 5 or 6 of your students out in the pattern or doing cross-countries, did you make 5-6 times your hourly rate? Honest question. If you say yes, then charging the students dual is unconscionable. If you say no, then the school was ripping the students off.
If the school needs an employee present, the school should pay that employee, either salary or an hourly rate. If a student needs you for 30 minutes to check a flight plan, the weather, watch them pre-flight, by all means, charge them for that time.
To charge a student DUAL Hobbs for SOLO flight time is absolutely unconscionable.
There is a really easy way to solve this. One price rentals, no extra charge for dual instruction. The plane rental rate is what it is and all renters pay it regardless of certificate status or need for a CFI. CFI works for the FBO and is paid by the FBO. FBO charges a rate for rentals that allows them to cover expenses, including paying the CFI and make a profit. Cost of learning to fly goes down a bit for students, cost of renting goes up a bit for everyone else.
When I went to trucking school, I didn't pay the school for time I was in the truck and pay the instructor for the time instructing. I paid the school for teaching me to drive. Period. Really simple business model. No reason FBO's couldn't use a similar model.
If the purpose for the business to make pilots(i.e. be a school), than it's not a bad idea. Though it would make the instructors a lot busier since there is all the incentive to always fly with them. If the purpose is to also rent to pilots(and most FBOs do - or at least tempt perspective pilots with that fact - both), than this is going to turn off quite a lot of renters. This is probably easily solved for PPL instruction as you can have before/after PPL rate. But things would get complicated for post PPL training.
Most, though certainly not all instructors do so as a way to build hours so they can move on to something else. I don't see them getting more hours as a downside. For the ones that don't want move on and perhaps don't want to work a boatload of hours, there will always be an avenue for that just as there is now. Negotiate your deal, including your boundaries in terms of workload and schedule and have at it.
Well first of all you're talking about a very small segment of the market. Extremely small IME. People that have a private certificate or better and are no longer working toward an advanced certificate tend to not rent long term. They find other solutions (ownership, partnership, clubs etc) or they just stop flying. Before you disagree remember I said long term. Short term yeah, people rent. But I think you'll be extremely hard pressed to fine more than a hand full of pilots out there who have more than 100 non-training (i.e. post private check ride) rental hours in their logbooks. I doubt you'll find all that many with more than 50 hours of recreational rental flying in their book.
People WANT to learn to fly. It is what has pretty much solely sustained the industry, fragile though it is, for quite some time now. If it got a little more expensive, the industry would indeed shrink a bit more. But like it or not, its going to get more expensive no matter what and its going to shrink a bit more no matter what. All the more reason to retool the rate structure and try to insure that what little revenue you're generating is still profitable and sustainable.