Changes to practice approach instructions?

Matthew

Matthew

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
20,066
Location
kojc, kixd, k34
Display Name
Matthew
Home Airfield
K34
I’m fairly new to the IR world. During training and when using, and being, a safety pilot it was common to contact tower and request a practice approach and let tower know where or how we wanted to start. Tower would respond with something like, “No radar services provided, cleared for practice RNAV/ILS/whatever runway xx, report inbound ABCDE”. A couple weeks ago tower simply said, “report 5 mile final rwy xx”. I was flying with my former CFII as a safety pilot, he said tower changed its procedures.

Is this a thing at other airports or a local or regional thing?
 
Matthew said:
I’m fairly new to the IR world. During training and when using, and being, a safety pilot it was common to contact tower and request a practice approach and let tower know where or how we wanted to start. Tower would respond with something like, “No radar services provided, cleared for practice RNAV/ILS/whatever runway xx, report inbound ABCDE”. A couple weeks ago tower simply said, “report 5 mile final rwy xx”. I was flying with my former CFII as a safety pilot, he said tower changed its procedures.

Is this a thing at other airports or a local or regional thing?
Click to expand...
What airport
 
Generally local control (tower) doesn't care about what you do beyond 5nm so it's not completely surprising that you're not going to get any services. Have you contacted the approach control facility that handles this airspace (either Center or a nearby Tracon) and request practice approaches? That's typically who you'd work with up until you're about 5 out.
 
Brad Z said:
Generally local control (tower) doesn't care about what you do beyond 5nm so it's not completely surprising that you're not going to get any services. Have you contacted the approach control facility that handles this airspace (either Center or a nearby Tracon) and request practice approaches? That's typically who you'd work with up until you're about 5 out.
Click to expand...
The practice approach instructions were always with either approach or initiated with tower when not talking to approach. The last time I did any approaches it was in actual. This time it was VMC and we were only talking to tower. I remember at another tower I got the full practice approach treatment, but I haven’t been there since the change.
 
Matthew said:
The practice approach instructions were always with either approach or initiated with tower when not talking to approach. The last time I did any approaches it was in actual. This time it was VMC and we were only talking to tower. I remember at another tower I got the full practice approach treatment, but I haven’t been there since the change.
Click to expand...
When are you located? I’m suggesting initiating requests for practice VFR approaches with the Tracon, since that’s who you’d be talking to if you were doing the approaches under IFR.

Edit: looks like you’d need to be talking to KC Approach on 118.9.
 
Brad Z said:
When are you located? I’m suggesting initiating requests for practice VFR approaches with the Tracon, since that’s who you’d be talking to if you were doing the approaches under IFR.

Edit: looks like you’d need to be talking to KC Approach on 118.9.
Click to expand...
Sure, that’s our freq. During most of my training my CFII acted as ATC. When we wanted to do a practice approach we’d let tower know and we’d get the “practice approach approved” comment. Within the last few weeks or so that seems to have changed.
 
Not sure why your CFI acted as ATC when you could’ve just always called up approach to ask for practice approaches as if they are the real thing while talking to real ATC and with other comms on the frequency. I would always do that and only if they were too busy to accommodate might I ask tower for the practice approach.
 
T Bird said:
Not sure why your CFI acted as ATC when you could’ve just always called up approach to ask for practice approaches as if they are the real thing while talking to real ATC and with other comms on the frequency. I would always do that and only if they were too busy to accommodate might I ask tower for the practice approach.
Click to expand...
Dunno, different CFIIs, different processes I guess. I’m wondering how towers handle practice approach requests and why things may have changed.
 
That first bit of phraseology sounds jacked up so no telling what procedures this tower is using.

For VFR aircraft conducting practice IAPs, you’re either getting separation services (LOA) or you’re not. If you are, then a normal approach clearance is issued and reduced radar separation is being provided. If you’re not (depends on airport) then you’ll simply be told 1) maintain VFR, 2) practice IAP approved (no clearance) and 3) no separation services provided.
 
Velocity173 said:
That first bit of phraseology sounds jacked up so no telling what procedures this tower is using.

For VFR aircraft conducting practice IAPs, you’re either getting separation services (LOA) or you’re not. If you are, then a normal approach clearance is issued and reduced radar separation is being provided. If you’re not (depends on airport) then you’ll simply be told 1) maintain VFR, 2) practice IAP approved (no clearance) and 3) no separation services provided.
Click to expand...
Ok, I’m the one all jacked up on my description of what tower was saying, but it definitely changed from your 1/2/3 comments to simply “report 5 mile final”. I haven’t been to any other local towers since that changed, and I’m wondering if it’s only a change at this tower.

I just ran across this and haven’t had a chance to check around.
 
Matthew said:
Dunno, different CFIIs, different processes I guess. I’m wondering how towers handle practice approach requests and why things may have changed.
Click to expand...
I think that would be a question for your local tower
 
T Bird said:
I think that would be a question for your local tower
Click to expand...
I just ran into it. My CFII acting as my safety pilot said our tower had recently made that change. I haven’t asked anyone else about it yet.
 
I've heard several reports of contract towers making this change in phraseology in the last couple of months -- no longer approving practice approaches and instead sending everyone to approach or an X mile final. I haven't seen anything on paper from the FAA dictating this, so seems more likely to be contractor initiated. I thought there was a thread about this, but I can't find it now.
 
Velocity173 said:
That first bit of phraseology sounds jacked up so no telling what procedures this tower is using.

For VFR aircraft conducting practice IAPs, you’re either getting separation services (LOA) or you’re not. If you are, then a normal approach clearance is issued and reduced radar separation is being provided. If you’re not (depends on airport) then you’ll simply be told 1) maintain VFR, 2) practice IAP approved (no clearance) and 3) no separation services provided.
Click to expand...
KIXD is in the LTA. My guess is @Matthew ‘s CFII is saying to the Tower something like we want a straight in and will be following the [approach name]

1748524845823.png
 
Noah Lorang said:
I've heard several reports of contract towers making this change in phraseology in the last couple of months -- no longer approving practice approaches and instead sending everyone to approach or an X mile final. I haven't seen anything on paper from the FAA dictating this, so seems more likely to be contractor initiated. I thought there was a thread about this, but I can't find it now.
Click to expand...

Here's the previous thread.

As mentioned in the other thread, I've received similar instructions to OP when requesting practice approaches from KSTC. It's a non-radar tower, and apparently they have been instructed to stop facilitating VFR practice approaches, even though they always used to remind pilots "no separation services provided."

We aren't served by an approach facility, and Minneapolis Center doesn't seem overjoyed to work VFR 172s onto a practice RNAV.
 
Matthew said:
Ok, I’m the one all jacked up on my description of what tower was saying, but it definitely changed from your 1/2/3 comments to simply “report 5 mile final”. I haven’t been to any other local towers since that changed, and I’m wondering if it’s only a change at this tower.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there are places which do that if/when they don't really care. It may even be different on different days. I've even gotten an "altitude and heading your discretion" from an approach controller in response to a request for vectors to final.

When it comes to practice approaches in VFR conditions, there are guidelines like @luvflyin described - "cleared for the approach" with separation services and "practice approach approved" without, but never make the assumption that (a) it's invariable or (2) that some variation you see on a particular day from a particular controller at a particular facility is universal.
 
I think the conversation went something like this:

I had asked my former CFII to ride along and beat me up doing hoodwork. I spent about 1.5 hrs doing all sorts of maneuvering. It was time to head back and I wanted to do an approach under the hood.

Me: Winds are favoring R22, and since R18 is closed today anyway, how about I do the RNAV 22?

CFII: Tower changed the way they do practice approaches. Instead of all the “no separation and cleared for practice approach,…”, they just say “report 5 mile final”, I can make the call if you want.

Me: Sure, go ahead and I will brief the approach.

CFII: <calls tower, says we want to do RNAV 22 practice approach starting at XXXXX>

Tower: report 5 mile final.

The last few times I’ve done approaches it was actual and filed, and I got the full service treatment. So this was new to me.
 
I wonder if there's something of significance roughly 5 miles from the runway on 'most' approaches................
 
I don’t think I’ve ever bothered the tower folks with a practice approach request. I’ve always asked the approach controllers and they’d just hand me off to tower freq at some point past the initial inbound.
 
eman1200 said:
I wonder if there's something of significance roughly 5 miles from the runway on 'most' approaches................
Click to expand...
It’s good point to make a sequencing decision. Like deciding whether or not to squeeze a departure off. Deciding if a plane on downwind will have to follow or given a short approach and put in front. Stuff like that.
 
wilkersk said:
I don’t think I’ve ever bothered the tower folks with a practice approach request. I’ve always asked the approach controllers and they’d just hand me off to tower freq at some point past the initial inbound.
Click to expand...
or just DO the approach.........."tower, I'm 10 northeast inbound for landing"..........or "tower, I'm 10 northeast just inside FALOV inbound for landing".....
 
eman1200 said:
or just DO the approach.........."tower, I'm 10 northeast inbound for landing"..........or "tower, I'm 10 northeast just inside FALOV inbound for landing".....
Click to expand...
I think that sounds reasonable. We have a lot of jets that arrive on approaches, though. We also have a lot students and IR training. It’s a busy place.

I’m not sure there’s a “best” way. Talking to tower while coordinating a practice approach means there are some VFR pilots not necessarily able to establish good situational awareness, similar to announcing being at a final approach fix at an untowered airport. But flying the approach and simply telling tower you’re inbound at the same time approach has jet traffic on a different frequency wanting to do the same thing doesn’t seem great either. At least giving tower a heads-up you’re planning to fly the approach gives tower a chance to say something if they know approach is working other inbound traffic.
 
Matthew said:
I think that sounds reasonable. We have a lot of jets that arrive on approaches, though. We also have a lot students and IR training. It’s a busy place.

I’m not sure there’s a “best” way. Talking to tower while coordinating a practice approach means there are some VFR pilots not necessarily able to establish good situational awareness, similar to announcing being at a final approach fix at an untowered airport. But flying the approach and simply telling tower you’re inbound at the same time approach has jet traffic on a different frequency wanting to do the same thing doesn’t seem great either. At least giving tower a heads-up you’re planning to fly the approach gives tower a chance to say something if they know approach is working other inbound traffic.
Click to expand...
Can you please explain why talking to KC Approach and requesting practice approaches with them isn't the "best" way?

You seem to be avoiding the issue altogether. Is it a workload thing? Do they deny requests? In most cases the approach controllers will coordinate your arrival with the tower and pre-sequence you along with any other jet traffic (of whom they are already controlling) making things easy peasy for you, other traffic, and the tower. If there's a conflict, the approach controller will know about it long before the tower controller will.
 
Brad Z said:
Can you please explain why talking to KC Approach and requesting practice approaches with them isn't the "best" way?

You seem to be avoiding the issue altogether. Is it a workload thing? Do they deny requests? In most cases the approach controllers will coordinate your arrival with the tower and pre-sequence you along with any other jet traffic (of whom they are already controlling) making things easy peasy for you, other traffic, and the tower. If there's a conflict, the approach controller will know about it long before the tower controller will.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that’s the “best” way. Just didn’t make into my post while I was considering the other two options.
 
TL,DR

It depends. Locally at KFDK if you contact tower they will clear you for practice approaches. At nearby KMRB they send you to approach control. It may be based on what level of tower radar equipment they have.
 
Brad Z said:
Can you please explain why talking to KC Approach and requesting practice approaches with them isn't the "best" way?

You seem to be avoiding the issue altogether. Is it a workload thing? Do they deny requests? In most cases the approach controllers will coordinate your arrival with the tower and pre-sequence you along with any other jet traffic (of whom they are already controlling) making things easy peasy for you, other traffic, and the tower. If there's a conflict, the approach controller will know about it long before the tower controller will.
Click to expand...
This might be what’s happening. Tower had been handling practice approaches, so that’s how we were all trained, and that’s what we continued to do. Tower might be pushing that off without specifically saying to contact approach.

I’ll have to read that LTA (posted earlier) again.
 
Matthew said:
This might be what’s happening. Tower had been handling practice approaches, so that’s how we were all trained, and that’s what we continued to do. Tower might be pushing that off without specifically saying to contact approach.

I’ll have to read that LTA (posted earlier) again.
Click to expand...
Think of asking for practice approaches the same way you'd ask for radar advisories or flight following. It's completely independent of the tower. Prior to departing you'd let ground or clearance delivery know you're going to be doing practice approaches, but the plan should be to get to the approach frequency and work everything out with them.

Practice approaches are inherently a radar service. With limited exceptions, towers generally don't offer radar services. I'm surprised the tower didn't suggest you contact KC approach, but they probably figured you'd just do it on your own so the only thing they need to know is when you're 5 miles out for pattern sequencing.

I'm not sure why tower was providing services during a practice approach previously, but it seems like whatever they used to do they're no longer offering.
 
I had 3 different CFIIs and a flying buddy/safety pilot that had another. I got lots of different lessons in how to handle this, and the consistency of emphasizing the right way vs the convenient way was tough to latch on to. I’ve been trying to get better at it by filing even when solo VFR. I’ve said before that IR was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. The more I know, the more I realize I don’t know. And one problem with local customs is they can get you thinking it’s going to work the same way everywhere.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top