CFI's Scared to sign off for Solo?

[Lumpy Landings]

I have to ask this...please be honest with me....are there any CFI's out there that fear signing off students to solo for "gut reasons", or fearful they really should not fly, or fear they may impact their reputation, or if a student is older in age?

Please I am not judging just need to know for perhaps a CFI change in my life.
I am pre solo close to 50 hours, nearing 30 hours in the traffic pattern, close to 200 landings...my CFI keeps telling me I'm close to solo (he's been saying that for the last 15 hours but won't sign me off) I'm starting to wonder.

Thanks for any input

Ms. Lumpy

 

[AggieMike88]

Did you ever do a ride with another CFI as suggested in your other thread? Have you actually asked him what he is not seeing or what he wants more of before signing off?

I think that is warranted before blasting bad vibes and labels at your current CFI.

Keep,in mind that everything you do, bad and good, comes back on him and his ticket. So if you wind up in a heap of twisted metal and doing harm to others, he is the one being called on the carpet and has to go through a long talk with the local FSDO.

 

[Captain]

I've never been nervous. When they're ready we both know it...well, sometimes they don't know they knew it till its over, but then they 'knew it'.

If you're at 50 hours its time to try another CFI assuming those 50 hours aren't over 50 months.

 

[dtuuri]

I have to ask this...please be honest with me....are there any CFI's out there that fear signing off students to solo for "gut reasons", or fearful they really should not fly, or fear they may impact their reputation, or if a student is older in age?

When I did a lot of instructing it was at a 2250' airstrip with trees right on one end. My standard for solo was whether the student could do five well-executed, completely unassisted takeoffs and landings (didn't do touch and goes) in a row. Of those five, one could be a properly executed go-around if the approach was misjudged. If one landing was botched, I re-set the 'count' to zero. Can you do that?

dtuuri

 

[Lumpy Landings]

I have had a chat with him and he keeps telling me I'll solo...yes of course I do understand he is responsible for me but I DO have close to 50 hours, have done over 70 + landings that have not been dangerous! have renters insurance etc???he's soloed students with less than 10 hours...I've have more than that with landing that have NOT twisted metal...sorry not a slam on you but gee whiz

 

[Lumpy Landings]

When I did a lot of instructing it was at a 2250' airstrip with trees right on one end. My standard for solo was whether the student could do five well-executed, completely unassisted takeoffs and landings (didn't do touch and goes) in a row. Of those five, one could be a properly executed go-around if the approach was misjudged. If one landing was botched, I re-set the 'count' to zero. Can you do that?

dtuuri

OMG yes thanks!!!!!

 

[ClimbnSink]

The internet can't help you. You need a second opinion. Go fly with someone else.

 

[Lumpy Landings]

The internet can't help you. You need a second opinion. Go fly with someone else.

You are probably right but I don't want to be wrong, maybe I'm more dangerous than I think...so I needed to get objective opinions. It's also a small area and if I go to another CFI I'm sure word will travel.

 

[dtuuri]

OMG yes thanks!!!!!

The key words are "properly executed". If you're happy with your technique, but the CFI feels it's flawed and causes inconsistency, like looking over the nose and losing your awareness of how high above the ground you are, or trying to "drive" it onto the ground instead of holding it off, which can bend the nose gear, there could be a difference of opinion as to the count.

dtuuri

 

[Lumpy Landings]

If you're at 50 hours its time to try another CFI assuming those 50 hours aren't over 50 months.

I'm 50 hours over the past 4 months. As more time goes by I'm feeling less and less confidant...I feel like if can take off and land without damage to me, property or the plane, and I DO think my instructor knows that too.

 

[AggieMike88]

You are probably right but I don't want to be wrong, maybe I'm more dangerous than I think...so I needed to get objective opinions. It's also a small area and if I go to another CFI I'm sure word will travel.

So what? It's called a stage check. And unless you are in a committed emotional relationship, it's just business and the instructor should not be getting his feelings hurt.

As already covered, the other instructor might help get past the blockage so you and existing instructor can get on the the post solo work.

 

[murphey]

You are probably right but I don't want to be wrong, maybe I'm more dangerous than I think...so I needed to get objective opinions. It's also a small area and if I go to another CFI I'm sure word will travel.

So what? Remember, yes, you are a student. You are also a Customer. When you've talked with the CFI, what areas/capabilities does he think you need improvement? What suggestions does he give to remedy the problems? And where are you?

And there's no way you can get objective opinions on the internet when no one can see how you fly.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Seems like a very weird post. Sounds like a long slow whine. Maybe forget flying and go drive a cab.

 

[LDJones]

How frequently does your instructor have his hands on the controls at touchdown?

 

[Lumpy Landings]

Seems like a very weird post. Sounds like a long slow whine. Maybe forget flying and go drive a cab.

Believe me I am so sorry for even posting this...I tried to delete the thread...but could not see an option for deleting it.... HONESTLY I was only trying to see the other side of the coin...this is NOT a whine...i will never ever post on this forum again...my sincere apologies!!!!!!!!!

 

[LDJones]

Believe me I am so sorry for even posting this...I tried to delete the thread...but could not see an option for deleting it.... HONESTLY I was only trying to see the other side of the coin...this is NOT a whine...i will never ever post on this forum again...my sincere apologies!!!!!!!!!

Ignore the rude ones....there really aren't that many on here. Your question was very legitimate. There are many here willing to try and help you.

 

[Henning]

You are probably right but I don't want to be wrong, maybe I'm more dangerous than I think...so I needed to get objective opinions. It's also a small area and if I go to another CFI I'm sure word will travel.

So? This is a retail business transaction and you are the customer. Where do you live? There should be no problem with you going to another instructor.

 

[dtuuri]

Believe me I am so sorry for even posting this...I tried to delete the thread...but could not see an option for deleting it.... HONESTLY I was only trying to see the other side of the coin...this is NOT a whine...i will never ever post on this forum again...my sincere apologies!!!!!!!!!

Aw, most of us are just trying to help. You might try posting earlier in the day before the bars close.

dtuuri

 

[etemplet]

Hello Lumpy Landings. I have been away from flying for 18 years. I couldn't believe that my first landing in a a Piper, (I'm a Cessna guy) went so well. My approaches are horribly inconsistent which leads to a lot of corrections and unnecessary gyrations of the aircraft as I maneuver for touchdown in the
last 30 feet.

Case in point....During my first flight after my absence, My instructor took the controls from me on my 6th landing and asked me what I was trying to do. He said he had to apply almost full power to make a smooth landing. I didn't see an issue, I flared, the aircraft ballooned a bit and I added a small amount of power... small. The solution ? He is no longer my instructor. I had asked for an older, experienced instructor and I got a rookie... LOL

My second instructor and I discussed landings before we took off. I explained how I was taught and how I handle things. He seemed pretty comfortable and has never had to touch the controls. I have to admit, I am pretty busy in my flare sometimes but I don't put the plane on the pavement till I am ready.

On my first flight with Jon (my new instructor) we returned at dusk and we did several touch and go's after sunset. Jon told me a couple of times.... Gene, you do know those Green lights are at the edge of the runway right? I finally caught on said, you know, i thought that was a displaced threshold or there was a little pavement in front of that. LOL Jon said, "yes make your aim point level with the second white runway light.

Find someone you can work with.

For what is it worth, NO WAY could I land a Pitts and not bend something. lol

 

[Z06_Mir]

Did you get my PM, Lumpy? I sent it about a week ago.

Anyway, once your CFI can literally sit on his/her hands without hesitation several times you'll be ready. Has that happened yet? My CFI said he waited to sign me off for a couple lessons because he didn't feel things were 100% right. Now I'm a CFI, time to solo doesn't matter. PM me if you want more personal conversation.

 

[kenjr]

...I knew I was ready when I'd catch my CFI (an old-timer...ATP/A&P...certified to fly everything with or without wings and over 10k hours) cat napping in the pattern.

The first time we did intensive landing sessions - like 20 in an hour and half I recorded it. My landings were horrible and the main reason was I was way too fast. He'd grab a hold every once in awhile...I could feel it. I recorded all those early sessions with my nFlightcam and later after I'd 'gotten it' I asked him about it and his response was simple. "I wanted you to figure it out". He'd told me many times but instead of fussing at me all the way down every final he just let me learn. That's why I love flying with him.

50 hours seems like a lot. My guess is that most that are flying pretty regularly do it somewhere around 20 or so. I did mine at 18.

You'll get it!! Good luck!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

If it is that big of a concern, and you don't want to ruffle feathers, schedule a lesson(s) at an airport that is 100 miles away and spend a day in a new location, in a new plane, and with a new instructor. If you are ready, it will be obvious. If you aren't, you can learn, and you will have your answer.

The cost of 50 hours of instruction on landings is huge, a bit more investment at another location is minor and you will have your answers.

I used to coach hoops at a pretty high level. And, I got good advice from an old timer. If a kid couldn't perform a task after the first time I showed them, that was the kids fault. If the kid didn't understand after the second time, that was MY (coach, instructor, teacher) fault as I was not doing my job in communicating. You not learning to solo in 10 hours is your fault. You not learning in 50 hours is the instructors fault for not being able to teach in a manner that "clicks" with you.

 

[ronnieh]

I read Ms. Lumpy's first post and now this one. In the interest of full disclosure, I have done very little primary instructing. In fact I quit renewing my instructor ratings years ago. Very few of us want to discourage anyone from general aviation, myself included. With the terrible safety record and the breathtakingly high cost of flying, general aviation is taking a hit. Instructor fees, and especially DPE fees boggle my mind. General aviation needs all of the support we can muster.

But, are we as a community being fair to people like the OP? She has spent perhaps well north of $7K and has not soloed.She has flown regularly with no apparent gaps in her training. Yet many on this board even a few instructors offer all kinds of suggestions. The elephant in the room that all are ignoring is that not everybody is cut out to fly airplanes. In her first post she hoped to be able to fly to visit family. She most likely will never reach that point. Look, only 20 hours of dual and 20 solo are required to qualify for the checkride. Now I admit that the 40 hours total may be a little optimistic today but surely a 25% increase would more than account for this. This would be roughly 30 dual and 30 solo for 60 hours total.

This is not going to be a popular idea, I know. Many instructors are struggling trying to build time and not starve. If you instruct someone for 10 hours and they can't take off and land in a simple trainer perhaps the instructor needs to examine themselves first and then perhaps have a frank private conversation with the student. This is not a criticism of the OP, heck she may be a world renown surgeon or some one with multiple advanced degrees and well known in her chosen field. Of course she could just be stupid. I do not know her and make no judgment except that she does not appear to be cut out to be a pilot.

Is there a possibility that if instructors simply culled those that are obviously not suited for flying, that the safety record might improve a little? As I stated I have very little experience in primary instruction. Because of this I defer to those on this board that do have the experience. I just can not fathom working with any student for 50 hours or even 20 hours and the student not being able to solo. There may be extenuating circumstances. Some people have to interrupt their training for financial or personal reasons and this can lead to increased hours. I get this but, the bar is very low for what is required for a PPL. It takes more training hours to be a nurse's aid than a PP. It may be time for a reality check on those students that take an inordinate amount of time to make any progress. Those who want to cheer on students that take 20 hours or more to solo and perhaps 100 hours to take a checkride so be it. This is strictly a call to be made by the instructor/student and not by somebody on a keyboard. I am not passing judgment. The simple question, stated again, is are we as a community being fair to these students?

 

[ebetancourt]

First maybe we should cull instructors who don't suggest another's evaluation.

 

[azure]

Older students sometimes take longer to learn new skills, get the muscle memory down, etc. I had trouble with independence of aileron and rudder controls during the landing phase well into my second 100 hours. I don't think slow students have anything to do with GA's abysmal safety record. That has far more to do with poor ADM, hazardous attitudes, etc. If anything, older students and pilots may be likelier to be more conservative in their ADM.

Lumpy, as others have suggested, why not sit down with your instructor and ask him what he is concerned about in your flying that he hasn't soloed you yet? And getting a stage check from another CFI is another good idea. Get a fresh opinion and perspective on your skills and performance. Don't worry about him taking offense, he won't if he is any kind of instructor worth keeping.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, in aviation training there is a scale with normal being in the middle and at the extreme ends of the scale we have:

CFI's who should not be teaching
the other end
Students/pilots who should not be flying

Now, I have not a clue where you and your CFI fall on that scale.
Over the years I have seen all kinds of student pilots and CFI's.
99% were normal - but:
One extreme I saw was a CFI who would not go fly if the weather was not perfect, took forever to solo her students, and after she finally did would not let them go out if the weather was not absolutely perfect. Flying with her it could take a year for a student to get ten hours of solo flight.

The other extreme I saw was a student (older fella) who had over 200 hours and the CFI (multiple apparently) would not sign him off to take his checkride. He came to our airport for that "second opinion". Our CFI that took him out (world class aerobatic show pilot) asked me to ride along and help evaluate him. While the guy could mechanically fly, i.e. push and pull on the controls appropriately, if a bit jerky, he could not seem to think ahead of what he was doing at that moment. He cut off other planes in the pattern, lost track of where the airport was and couldn't figure out how to find it using the VOR and the CFI had to give him the heading back, could make semi decent turns but not while climbing or descending. Now this guy was a professor at a college. But it was clear to me that flying was not something he could do safely. After we got out of the plane, Rob raised an eyebrow at me. I said - let him down gently - and left.

OK, the final point I will make is you need to fly with another CFI, even if just for a couple times around the pattern. If your CFI objects, then you know where the problem lies.

Now a thought exercise for you.
Can you teach the CFI?
In other words, can you check the weather and explain things to him like he is a first time student how to read the abbreviations.
Can you preflight the airplane confidently, explaining to HIM how to check the tires, flight controls, oil, gas, beacon, lights, etc.
Can you call for a VFR departure and a taxi clearance without help (if appropriate to your airport)
Can you start, taxi, run up, without any help - all while explaining as you go along "Now on the runup pad we turn into the wind for the runup and bring the engine to 2000 rpm", yadda, yadda?
Can you explain how you decide it is safe to take the runway?
Do you align the plane with the centerline, do the final pretakeoff checks - gyro, fuel pump, trim - while calling out each item on the check list before you look at the list to see if you missed anything?
On takeoff do you maintain the centerline, call out your speed checks (airspeed alive etc.), and positively rotate into a climb without over rotating, while teaching HIM why/how you do each of these things as though you are the instructor and he is on his first ride.
And so forth. I won't detail it all here.

Let me point out the UND aviation department (University of North Dakota) has a whole series of teaching videos on YOUTUBE. These are free and well worth your time.
Or the King series of videos on learning to fly are excellent - if a bit costly .

I get the impression that it might not be your lack of ability holding you back - rather you do not exude confidence. You do not make the CFI feel confident that you will promptly make what ever corrections to the planes attitude or speed. Go to the airport and teach your CFI and he might have a whole new opinion of you.

Be not be afraid to give me a buzz. 989 284 fortyone twentytwo I'm always willing to offer what advice I can.

 

[frfly172]

Didn't we cover all of this in the other post. Why don't you want to do a stage check,are you afraid that the other instructor may be of the same opinion? If you are sure of your ability so stage check will prove you right.

 

[upstateny]

+1 on exuding confidence.

I was at a point where I thought I should be soloing. While working the pattern for the n-th time, I asked my CFI how much longer I had to haul his sorry butt around the sky. He said to land, got out and told me to go up. Later he told me that he was waiting for me to indicate that I thought I was ready.

I also agree with an earlier post that said the student has to do 5 (or any number you pick) take offs and landings in a row without the CFI touching or saying anything before you get to go solo. [I would also add that the student can do all the other things necessary for safe flight. Landing isn't the only criteria for soloing.]

 

[EdFred]

When I did a lot of instructing it was at a 2250' airstrip with trees right on one end. My standard for solo was whether the student could do five well-executed, completely unassisted takeoffs and landings (didn't do touch and goes) in a row. Of those five, one could be a properly executed go-around if the approach was misjudged. If one landing was botched, I re-set the 'count' to zero. Can you do that?

dtuuri

I go with 10 in a row where I don't have to say or do anything. Not necessarily in one lesson, and I don't tell them there is a running count, and like you any assistance reset it to 0.

 

[murphey]

First maybe we should cull instructors who don't suggest another's evaluation.

Or who should never be allowed to teach. Not everyone is cut out to teach.

 

[Paul Hamilton]

Without having flown with you, I can't offer any suggestions other than doing a phase check with another instructor to get a second opinion on your strengths and weaknesses. I will say that when I solo a student has a lot to do with weather and traffic conditions as well as student readiness.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Maybe your instructor is waiting for the PIC mindset to come along. It takes some students longer than others to take charge of the airplane. If you're looking to him to validate every one of your decisions you're not there yet and that's what you need to work on.

 

[ronnieh]

Well, in aviation training there is a scale with normal being in the middle and at the extreme ends of the scale we have:

CFI's who should not be teaching
the other end
Students/pilots who should not be flying

Now, I have not a clue where you and your CFI fall on that scale.
Over the years I have seen all kinds of student pilots and CFI's.
99% were normal - but:
One extreme I saw was a CFI who would not go fly if the weather was not perfect, took forever to solo her students, and after she finally did would not let them go out if the weather was not absolutely perfect. Flying with her it could take a year for a student to get ten hours of solo flight.

The other extreme I saw was a student (older fella) who had over 200 hours and the CFI (multiple apparently) would not sign him off to take his checkride. He came to our airport for that "second opinion". Our CFI that took him out (world class aerobatic show pilot) asked me to ride along and help evaluate him. While the guy could mechanically fly, i.e. push and pull on the controls appropriately, if a bit jerky, he could not seem to think ahead of what he was doing at that moment. He cut off other planes in the pattern, lost track of where the airport was and couldn't figure out how to find it using the VOR and the CFI had to give him the heading back, could make semi decent turns but not while climbing or descending. Now this guy was a professor at a college. But it was clear to me that flying was not something he could do safely. After we got out of the plane, Rob raised an eyebrow at me. I said - let him down gently - and left.

200 hours, really? That is my point, was this student treated fairly? Some of the number of hours being batted around here just do not make sense to me.

OK, the final point I will make is you need to fly with another CFI, even if just for a couple times around the pattern. If your CFI objects, then you know where the problem lies.

Agreed, but, waiting to 50 hours. The instructor should have been taking some drastic action by 15 hours. Obviously something is wrong. One has to wonder if the instructor is enjoying the easy money. Could be the student or the instructor but, it is the instructor's responsibility to recognize that a problem exist and fix it one way or the other.

Now a thought exercise for you.
Can you teach the CFI?
In other words, can you check the weather and explain things to him like he is a first time student how to read the abbreviations.
Can you preflight the airplane confidently, explaining to HIM how to check the tires, flight controls, oil, gas, beacon, lights, etc.
Can you call for a VFR departure and a taxi clearance without help (if appropriate to your airport)
Can you start, taxi, run up, without any help - all while explaining as you go along "Now on the runup pad we turn into the wind for the runup and bring the engine to 2000 rpm", yadda, yadda?
Can you explain how you decide it is safe to take the runway?
Do you align the plane with the centerline, do the final pretakeoff checks - gyro, fuel pump, trim - while calling out each item on the check list before you look at the list to see if you missed anything?

The instructor should have been insisting on these things 40 hours ago.

On takeoff do you maintain the centerline, call out your speed checks (airspeed alive etc.), and positively rotate into a climb without over rotating, while teaching HIM why/how you do each of these things as though you are the instructor and he is on his first ride.
And so forth. I won't detail it all here.

Let me point out the UND aviation department (University of North Dakota) has a whole series of teaching videos on YOUTUBE. These are free and well worth your time.
Or the King series of videos on learning to fly are excellent - if a bit costly .

I get the impression that it might not be your lack of ability holding you back - rather you do not exude confidence. You do not make the CFI feel confident that you will promptly make what ever corrections to the planes attitude or speed. Go to the airport and teach your CFI and he might have a whole new opinion of you.

Be not be afraid to give me a buzz. 989 284 fortyone twentytwo I'm always willing to offer what advice I can.

.....

 

[Henning]

As to the 200 hr student with multiple instructors, perhaps the other instructors had, "let him down easy", and the student opted to continue. Is it the instructors place to refuse to let the student fly?

 

[ronnieh]

To refuse, no. To be honest with the student, yes. I have no problem with the perpetual student who simply wants to ride around with an instructor. As long as the student is not being led along as the OP is being led I am find with it. Keeping her hopes up, telling her she will solo soon is just wrong IMO. Just treat the student honestly. It should not take 50 hours to solo nor 200 hours to be ready for a checkride. IMO these numbers are ridiculous and reflects badly on the instructors involved.

 

[murphey]

To refuse, no. To be honest with the student, yes. I have no problem with the perpetual student who simply wants to ride around with an instructor. As long as the student is not being led along as the OP is being led I am find with it. Keeping her hopes up, telling her she will solo soon is just wrong IMO. Just treat the student honestly. It should not take 50 hours to solo nor 200 hours to be ready for a checkride. IMO these numbers are ridiculous and reflects badly on the instructors involved.

And I'm proof of this problem. This was before POA and similar. New CFi who had no interest nor aptitude for teaching. Add a school and Chief Pilot who paid no attention to the progress of a student as long as the check cleared. No support system at the school or outside. Didn't know about EAA chapters. Didn't take 200 hours but much longer than it should have.

Am I an apprehensive pilot? Perhaps more conservative is the better word. Possibly, because I have higher minimums than many others. On the other hand I've had 2 schools ask me to get my CFI because I understand how to teach even if I'm not a fantastic pilot.

 

[Palmpilot]

If it is that big of a concern, and you don't want to ruffle feathers, schedule a lesson(s) at an airport that is 100 miles away and spend a day in a new location, in a new plane, and with a new instructor.

Unless she hands the new instructor a separate logbook to sign, when she flies with her present instructor again, he will see the logbook entry regardless of how far away she goes.

If she refused to hand over a logbook to the new instructor to sign, would that put him in a bind because of the regulation requiring him to sign the student's logbook?

Another approach would be to just be up front about it, by telling her present instructor that she feels like she's in a rut and wants to see what another instructor has to say.

 

[Dr. O]

Ronnie, yeah well over 200 hours. When Ron told me about it that morning and asked me to ride along, I was having bad thoughts about some instructor milking the golden calf. After riding in the backseat for a bit I only wanted to get out of there.

As far as your other points, they are points well taken.

cheers

 

[ronnieh]

Not directed at you, Dr. O or your instructor friend. My criticism was of the previous multiple instructors. Apparently after one flight you were honest with him. Some here seem to advocate you should have kept pushing him along. Rather you cut him loose. Your story as I understood it supported my opinion.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have to ask this...please be honest with me....are there any CFI's out there that fear signing off students to solo for "gut reasons", or fearful they really should not fly, or fear they may impact their reputation, or if a student is older in age?

The only question I ask myself (other than "Do they meet the legal requirements in 61.87?") is whether or not I have reason to believe I'll have to explain my decision to an FAA Inspector, i.e., is there any reasonably foreseeable likelihood that this Student will have an accident or incident?

Please I am not judging just need to know for perhaps a CFI change in my life.

You are the CFI's client, not his/her spouse. If it isn't working, you don't need a judge to authorize you to find another instructor with whom it does work.

I am pre solo close to 50 hours, nearing 30 hours in the traffic pattern, close to 200 landings...my CFI keeps telling me I'm close to solo (he's been saying that for the last 15 hours but won't sign me off) I'm starting to wonder.

That doesn't tell me a lot, as I have no idea what sort of plane you're flying, or how many months or years over which this training is spread. If you were flying a twin and taking one lesson a month, you might only be a quarter of the way there. If you're pursuing this on a daily basis in a simple trainer like a Cessna 172, that's rather a lot. Best bet at this point is to start by sitting down with your instructor, explaining your concerns, and then deciding what you should do next based on that discussion.

If you've already had that discussion with your instructor, you need to go back and explain that you're not satisfied with the answers you're getting, and you want to know exactly where your instructor thinks you stand, where you're going, what it will take to get there, and how long it will take to get there. In particular, you want to know if you are actually progressing, or just "spinning your wheels" and going nowhere. If you don't get satisfactory answers, it's time to take further action. If this is a flight school, take your concerns to the Chief Instructor. If not, go find another training provider because this one isn't fulfilling their professional responsibilities to you, their client.