CFI refused to log a flight

MachFly

MachFly

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MachFly
This situation happened to a friend of mine, I found it very odd so I figured I'd ask what to do in this case.

He came to a flight school to take one lesson in a multi engine aircraft (he did not have an AMEL rating). The original plan was to take only one flight with them and not a course, the school knew this.
After the flight the CFI refused to let the student log this flight because apparently it was school's policy not to let students log flights unless they are taking the whole course (which he was not). As far as FAA is concerned he can legally log this flight because it was with an MEI.
So the question is can the student log the flight regardless of whether or not the CFI let him? He has a CFI number to put in the comments but there will not be an instructor's signature.
 
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Wait a minute.....so he paid for a flight and they won't sign his logbook?

I'd be punchin' somebody in the face.
 
I don't see it as a problem. He can log the flight but without the instructors sig, he won't be able to use the time towards a rating. As to the instructor/school, he paid for the flight instruction. They owe him the sig. I'd consider NOT paying for the flight (challenge the bill on the credit card, sue in small claims, whatever it takes).
I have flown with a number of instructors. None have ever refused to sign my log.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Wait a minute.....so he paid for a flight and they won't sign his logbook?
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Yeah....

silver-eagle said:
I don't see it as a problem. He can log the flight but without the instructors sig, he won't be able to use the time towards a rating. As to the instructor/school, he paid for the flight instruction. They owe him the sig. I'd consider NOT paying for the flight (challenge the bill on the credit card, sue in small claims, whatever it takes).
I have flown with a number of instructors. None have ever refused to sign my log.
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So what can you use the hours for if not for a rating?

And how do you log it? Do you put dual received and that's it or do you add the CFI# and name?
 
Did you already pay him for his time? Or the plane time?
Sounds like a total douche!
 
Not only can he log it, if he refused to sign it, I'd take it to the FSDO and let them initial off on it. That way the story goes on file for any potential later investigation level scrutiny of your log book and they can do what they want with the dickweed. There is no reason not to log the time if he paid for it. He could also take them to small claims court for a refund.
 
Unless the school has a 135 cert and the plane and MEI are on it wouldn't that be illegal? I guess if it was a short flight And the took off and landed at the same spot it would be ok?
 
Agree with Henning. Politely ask the school for either a logbook entry or the fee back and, if not make a report to the local FSDO. No idea how the FSDO would actually handle it but 61.189(a) says "A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training."

If it wasn't a training session, exactly what was it? It would be interesting to hear the answer.
 
Henning said:
Not only can he log it, if he refused to sign it, I'd take it to the FSDO and let them initial off on it. That way the story goes on file for any potential later investigation level scrutiny of your log book and they can do what they want with the dickweed. There is no reason not to log the time if he paid for it. He could also take them to small claims court for a refund.
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I think Henning has it on this question - if the multi-stu wants to pursue this. He may not - personal preference.

If we are getting the complete story here, the multi-stu hasn't gotten what he paid for.

-Skip
 
midlifeflyer said:
If it wasn't a training session, exactly what was it? It would be interesting to hear the answer.
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It could have been a sightseeing flight. It all depends on what was requested and agreed to. And if they get in a pizzing match at the FSDO, what is written down on the receipt may be the deciding factor.

-Skip
 
True, Skip. It really depends on what was offered and what was received. It might be more than the receipt, though. That's why I said it would be interesting to hear the answer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Agree with Henning. Politely ask the school for either a logbook entry or the fee back and, if not make a report to the local FSDO. No idea how the FSDO would actually handle it but 61.189(a) says "A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training."
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I'm with Mark.

If it wasn't a training session, exactly what was it? It would be interesting to hear the answer.
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Right -- a 135 charter flight? A 91.147 sightseeing flight? In either case, letting the "passenger" manipulate the controls wouldn't be kosher (explicit reg in 135 and probably in the LoA for 91.147).

BTW, if it wasn't a training flight with the instructor's signature, there's nothing to log. Not being "rated," the person cannot log it under the sole manipulator clause, and if it isn't training, there's no other type of time under which to log it.
 
Lots of good responses here.

First question is how did they bill the flight? Discovery flight, sight seeing etc.

Clearly you took the flight as an intro and to gain some hours. I'd quickly speak with the Flight school owner to confirm their policy. Then give him the opportunity to make it right, If he does not immediately do that then I'd go to the FSDO AND I'd challenge the charge on your CC.

If you are forced to resort to the last I'd let the entire aviation world know who the school is and about their smacked butt policy.

Please let us know how this turns out.
 
You pay the instructor for his time, you get to log, as long as he is current to do whatever type of instruction it is. It was a lesson, so they should have billed as such, too.
This is not kosher... probably some kind of backpedaling on the part of the school, to cover their butts for insurance or some other paperwork issue. I doubt it was the instructor's idea; probably just "following orders".
In any case, they should have told you beforehand that they would not let you log it. You and your money might have gone elsewhere in that case, so they apparently decided to rip you off instead. Or maybe it was just an honest omission, in which case they still did not do the right thing, and should offer you something to make up for it.
 
Here is a case in which the court clearly held a CFI at fault for failing/refusing to sign a students logbook. Both the student and the CFI agreed instruction had been provided. Resulted in 60 day suspension.
Administrator vs. Luyten (2006)
 

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This actually happened a while back and I doubt he cares enough to go through the trouble of sueing them or calling FSDO.
I want to know for my personal interests on how to get your rightfully earned hours. If the student logs the flight himself and puts the instructors name and CFI# then why can't it could towards a rating?
And if it can't what can it count to?

If the flight really did happen and the CFI provided instruction then if anyone looks at the students logbook and has doubts about it they can always contact the CFI and ask if that flight happened. Now of course the CFI can lie and say that it did not happen but that's a different story.
 
MachFly said:
If the student logs the flight himself and puts the instructors name and CFI# then why can't it could towards a rating?
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Because without the signiature, it doesn't meet the FAA's requirements in 61.51 and 61.189 to be counted as training.

And if it can't what can it count to?
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Nothing, unless the pilot is rated in the aircraft and can thus log it under 61.51(e)(1)(I).

If the flight really did happen and the CFI provided instruction then if anyone looks at the students logbook and has doubts about it they can always contact the CFI and ask if that flight happened. Now of course the CFI can lie and say that it did not happen but that's a different story.
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In this situation, is not up to the FAA (or anyone else) to prove ithe training didn't happen; it's up to the person presenting the logbook to prove it did. Without the instructor's signature, it is as though the training didn't happen.

And since the FAA will not have heard about this violation before now, the stale complaint clock hasn't started running, and the instructor's certificate remains at risk if the pilot concerned brings this to the FAA's attention even at this late date. I would reiterate what I said originally -- this appears to have been a serious breach of the rules in one form or another, and this practice should be stopped by bringing it to the FAA's attention.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because without the signiature, it doesn't meet the FAA's requirements in 61.51 and 61.189 to be counted as training.

Nothing, unless the pilot is rated in the aircraft and can thus log it under 61.51(e)(1)(I).

In this situation, is not up to the FAA (or anyone else) to prove ithe training didn't happen; it's up to the person presenting the logbook to prove it did. Without the instructor's signature, it is as though the training didn't happen.

And since the FAA will not have heard about this violation before now, the stale complaint clock hasn't started running, and the instructor's certificate remains at risk if the pilot concerned brings this to the FAA's attention even at this late date. I would reiterate what I said originally -- this appears to have been a serious breach of the rules in one form or another, and this practice should be stopped by bringing it to the FAA's attention.
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That explains it, thanks.
 
If he paid for it with a credit card he should dispute the charge - he paid for a lesson and did not get a lesson . . .
 
You sue in small claims for "specific performance: To whit, log and sign FAA flight log book as required under FAR 14 section 61.51 for instruction given on blah, blah date, at blah blah times, from blah to blah." Small claims judges or magistrates live for sometime more than the $700 used car, or $2200 dead beat tenant. It's a sure win. Toss in court fees, and anything else you can think of, but the header on the document of service is "Specific Performance".
 
As far as the FAA is concerned payment makes no difference. You need not pay for flight instruction for instruction to take place. Either he went on the flight with an MEI or he did not. If he did then the MEI needs to sign the stupid log book as reguired by the FARs.

Now, where payment does come in is if the MEI refuses to sign the stupid log book then I would simply stop payment until they did. Also, I'd be letting the FSDO know what's going on and get a report filed with them. The flight took place 'for realzies' and I would log it regardless. Maybe I'd have to fly a little extra later as that specific flight wouldn't count towards a rating, but on principle I would certainly put it in my book.
 
MachFly said:
This situation happened to a friend of mine, I found it very odd so I figured I'd ask what to do in this case.

He came to a flight school to take one lesson in a multi engine aircraft (he did not have an AMEL rating). The original plan was to take only one flight with them and not a course, the school knew this.
After the flight the CFI refused to let the student log this flight because apparently it was school's policy not to let students log flights unless they are taking the whole course (which he was not). As far as FAA is concerned he can legally log this flight because it was with an MEI.
So the question is can the student log the flight regardless of whether or not the CFI let him? He has a CFI number to put in the comments but there will not be an instructor's signature.
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Care to share the name of the school?
I'm currently looking at options for getting my AMEL and maybe MEI. I would be interested to know the name of this school so i don't waste my money at what sounds like a questionable operation.
 
\__[Ô]__/;1009495 said:
Care to share the name of the school?
I'm currently looking at options for getting my AMEL and maybe MEI. I would be interested to know the name of this school so i don't waste my money at what sounds like a questionable operation.
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Check PMs.
I'd rather not post names on a public forum.
 
I'm curious too. I live in AZ and will be going for my ME after my commercial.
 
Captain said:
Why? If a schools policies are screwing over the public shouldn't the public know?
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It was a unique case, some random student wouldn't normally be flying with them. It's a long story.
 
docmirror said:
You sue in small claims for "specific performance: To whit, log and sign FAA flight log book as required under FAR 14 section 61.51 for instruction given on blah, blah date, at blah blah times, from blah to blah." Small claims judges or magistrates live for sometime more than the $700 used car, or $2200 dead beat tenant. It's a sure win. Toss in court fees, and anything else you can think of, but the header on the document of service is "Specific Performance".
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States can vary but most small claims courts don't have jurisdiction to grant "specific performance." Just money damages.
 
MachFly said:
It was a unique case, some random student wouldn't normally be flying with them. It's a long story.
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My dad has nearly 1000 hrs but has not flown from the left seat in 17 years.

For his birthday I bought him a discovery flight at a discount. He flew 45 minutes and the instructor had no problem signing his logbook.
 
MachFly said:
It was a unique case, some random student wouldn't normally be flying with them. It's a long story.
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Well, then maybe there is another side to the story as to why the school did not consider the flight 'instruction'.

Demonstration flight on an aircraft he was intending to purchase with the promise that the school would provide transition training ?
 
ghogue said:
Here is a case in which the court clearly held a CFI at fault for failing/refusing to sign a students logbook. Both the student and the CFI agreed instruction had been provided. Resulted in 60 day suspension.
Administrator vs. Luyten (2006)

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Admin vs Luyten (2006).PDF
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I suggest printing out this case, presenting it to the CFI, and offering him another chance to sign the logbook.
 
midlifeflyer said:
States can vary but most small claims courts don't have jurisdiction to grant "specific performance." Just money damages.
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Go to muni or county court and file Pro-se.

<edit: and thanks to Steve above me, we now have case law.>
 
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Steve Foley said:
I suggest printing out this case, presenting it to the CFI, and offering him another chance to sign the logbook.
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This case establishes/confirms that if flight instruction has taken place, the instructor is required to sign the logbook.

The 'rest of the story' here probably revolves around the question whether any instruction has taken place. It is somewhat reasonable that if no instruction has taken place and the commercial pilot logged the flight as something else (e.g. sales demo, post maintenance flight), he doesn't want to have his name in someone elses logbook. For all he knows, the 'pilot rated passenger' goes off, buys a twin and kills himself and 5 investment bankers with the 1 hr of instruction as the only evidence of multi training.

What did the receipt for the pilots services state ?
 
When I took my discovery flight, the instructor logged the time in my logbook.
Unless it was scenic tour, or something along those lines, you would think any respectable flight school would be trying to gain students and want to log the time for them. If my flight school or instructor did not sign the hours into my log book, you can guarantee an overkill of negative publicity on my part. Also, they would only get one chance to say "no", before I contact the FSDO and file my complaint. Also, I would file a complaint with the better business to add a blemish to their name.
 
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