CFI Payment

jesse said:
You can debrief just as effectively later that evening.
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You can't debrief what you didn't see.

I see no issue with a CFI not being present for every solo, but if you really don't feel the need to be present for a first solo...well, it's your ticket, not mine, I suppose.

If the issue is really the nature of the airport, I'd suggest finding another airport to send a student up for a first solo.

I do wonder what the FAA would say if your student got killed on that first solo and you weren't present.
 
LDJones said:
Personally, I'm on a handheld with binoculars for every first solo. I'm sending someone up in a flying machine for the first time all by themselves. No matter how much time I have with them, I'm not going to assume anything and make sure I'm available in the event anything unusual arises during that flight.

Plus, I want to be the first to congratulate them when they're back on the ground....it's a momentous event!

Subsequent solos I'll approve via text message or phone call, but I want to know when they're flying.
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This is the kind of CFI the world needs...:yes:...

And I agree....... It is a momentous occasion... I will never forget my first solo flight..
 
Jesse, you'll have to accept that you're clearly in the minority here. If my instructor hopped out of the plane, said go for it, and was out of the parking lot before I even made it to the taxiway, I'd be pretty ****ed. Passing the check ride is almost anticlimactic compared to the successfully completing your first check ride. If you don't have time to stick around for that, I'd question your commitment to help get me to the check ride.

I also think the FSDO would hand you your head in an investigation if your student ripped nose gear off in a porpoise, and you weren't even around to witness it. Also, cut the nonsense on it being a large class C airport...I'm sure you could head over to a nearby quiet non-towered field to do the first solo.
 
Brad Z said:
Jesse, you'll have to accept that you're clearly in the minority here. If my instructor hopped out of the plane, said go for it, and was out of the parking lot before I even made it to the taxiway, I'd be pretty ****ed. Passing the check ride is almost anticlimactic compared to the successfully completing your first check ride. If you don't have time to stick around for that, I'd question your commitment to help get me to the check ride.

I also think the FSDO would hand you your head in an investigation if your student ripped nose gear off in a porpoise, and you weren't even around to witness it. Also, cut the nonsense on it being a large class C airport...I'm sure you could head over to a nearby quiet non-towered field to do the first solo.
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Going to other fields is not practical - every instructor here solos at the class c. The most services are available and you'd extend the block time and cost your students money by going elsewhere for every flight. You train them where they will be flying.

I don't care if people disagree. Do I leave every time I've soloed someone for the first time? No. Have I done it? Yes. Does it increase risk? No.
 
jesse said:
Based on what regulation or previous case?
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Just common sense. Do you really want to explain to the Feds that you weren't there when they come asking about the smoking pile of remains that was your student? Or the deceased's family/lawyers?

It happens(students killing themselves on first solo). And when it does, the CFI goes under the microscope.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just common sense. Do you really want to explain to the Feds that you weren't there when they come asking about the smoking pile of remains that was your student? Or the deceased's family/lawyers?

It happens(students killing themselves on first solo). And when it does, the CFI goes under the microscope.
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That detail will be insignificant. The significant detail is going to revolve around what you messed up as that got them killed. The FAA isn't going to be what you're fearing anyhow -- ti's going to be the civil lawyers trying to take every asset you have. The protection for that isn't going to be seeing the crash it's going to be carrying the proper insurance and being diligent with your paperwork.
 
jesse said:
That detail will be insignificant. The significant detail is going to revolve around what you messed up as that got them killed. The FAA isn't going to be what you're fearing anyhow -- ti's going to be the civil lawyers trying to take every asset you have. The protection for that isn't going to be seeing the crash it's going to be carrying the proper insurance and being diligent with your paperwork.
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Maybe it's the recovering-lawyer in me, but I'd rather be listening and observing the solo should the student panic or have an issue during the flight. It just might increase the chance of a successful outcome knowing the student and the plane he/she is flying. Whether a Class C or Class D airport, if I think I can help my student I'll be keying the mic. My tower pretty much expects it.
 
This is a truly absurd argument. Clearly Jesse doesn't care what we or anyone else think. Hopefully, he--or any of the other instructors on here--won't have to find out what happens if a student bends metal on their first solo. Don't think it doesn't happen: just in my cursory search of the NTSB reports this year alone there were eight first solo accidents...nearly all bounded landings that got out of control. Non of them were fatal, but certainly a "teachable moment".
 
Brad Z said:
This is a truly absurd argument. Clearly Jesse doesn't care what we or anyone else think. Hopefully, he--or any of the other instructors on here--won't have to find out what happens if a student bends metal on their first solo. Don't think it doesn't happen: just in my cursory search of the NTSB reports this year alone there were eight first solo accidents...nearly all bounded landings that got out of control. Non of them were fatal, but certainly a "teachable moment".
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I have personal knowledge of one CFI who had a first solo wipe out the nose landing gear. It ended up as a 44709 for the CFI.

Whatever a CFI wants to do in regards to supervised solo is his business as its his certificate.
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree folks. If it is the difference between the student being able to solo or not solo that day and the student is fine with me leaving then that's the way it goes. It's certainly not statistically relevant.
 
ARFlyer said:
If I have to be present by OUR* 141 rules then I charge them for my time. So for solos I will charge them the time I am present watching them. If I have to look over there flight plan before their commercial solo x/c then I charge.

Since I only see 50% of that fee I make sure I charge the exact time. I'm not being a scrooge. I need to be able to eat! However, I only charge the time I am doing something with/for the student. If I'm inside BSing with a fellow CFI and their outside pre-flighting then that is not my time.

If I fly outside of our 141 then I charge the going rate of our region. However I gave a flight review to a fellow CFI and got paid in dinner. Which was perfectly fine with me. We did our required ground over some BBQ at a nearby town and flew back home. :D

*Every 141 school rules are different. There is the OVERALL FAA 141 rules then the individual school's 141 rules.
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Your tco requires a CFI to look over the planning of a Private pilot building time towards his / her commercial? *sigh* Nothing against you (it's not like you write the rules as a line CFI at a 141 school), but stuff like that does pilots looking to build their careers a huge disservice. Another reason why I'm not a huge fan of many part 141 programs out there.
 
Oh, and fwiw, I'd never leave during a student's first solo. Do I think it would be dangerous for me to leave? Of course not! If I didn't think they could safely make 3 solo laps around the pattern, I wouldn't solo them. I'm not a die hard on the shirt cutting tradition, but they deserve to atleast have me there to shake their hand for a job well done when they land.
 
Good news and bad news.
1. The person had to take time out of their day to be there with you to help you with your personal goals
2. That person could of been making money somewhere else
3. Even the preacher gets paid at a wedding - CFI's are on the hook for what you do and don't do.
4. They spent a LOT of time getting to be where they are and should be compensated for it. The earth rotates - everybody has bills.
5. If there ever was a time to cut somebody a break, it would be on their first solo. I can't charge a guy or gal if I'm standing there cutting off their clothes! (I could as an EMT but not as a CFI) We all know instructors don't make millions doing what they do, don't be afraid to show them some love when it comes to paying bills. I'm fortunate enough not to have to rely on teaching folks to fly helicopters to pay the bills. Not a ton of people have that kind of scratch these days.

Best,
Brian Wallis
 
GCA319 said:
but they deserve to atleast have me there to shake their hand for a job well done when they land.
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+1

I don't ever recall my being there making a difference in the outcome of an initial solo but I was always there when they got done just to see their excitement! I think they would of been very disappointed if I was not there to shake their hand afterwards.
 
jesse said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree folks. If it is the difference between the student being able to solo or not solo that day and the student is fine with me leaving then that's the way it goes. It's certainly not statistically relevant.
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Will this change your mind?

Straight from the FAA's Aviation Instructor's Handbook, page 8-12:

First Solo Flight
During the student’s first solo flight, the instructor must
be present to assist in answering questions or resolving
any issues that arise during the flight. To ensure the solo
flight is a positive, confidence-building experience for the
student, the flight instructor needs to consider time of day
when scheduling the flight. Time of day is a factor in traffic
congestion, possible winds, sun angles, and reflection.
If possible, the flight instructor needs access to a portable
radio during any supervised solo operations. A radio enables
the instructor to terminate the solo operation if he or she
observes a situation developing. The flight instructor must
use good judgment when communicating with a solo student.
Keep all radio communications to a minimum. Do not talk to
the student on short final of the landing approach.

Post-Solo Debriefing
During a post-solo debriefing, the flight instructor discusses
what took place during the student’s solo flight. It is important
for the flight instructor to answer any questions the student
may have as result of a solo flight. Instructors need to be
involved in all aspects of the flight to ensure the student
utilizes correct flight procedures. It is very important for the
flight instructor to debrief a student immediately after a solo
flight. With the flight vividly etched in the student’s memory,
questions about the flight will come quickly.

You'll get hanged by the FAA if they find out you weren't at your student's first solo and they pranged the aircraft.
 
Turningfinal said:
Will this change your mind?

Straight from the FAA's Aviation Instructor's Handbook, page 8-12:

First Solo Flight
During the student’s first solo flight, the instructor must
be present to assist in answering questions or resolving
any issues that arise during the flight. To ensure the solo
flight is a positive, confidence-building experience for the
student, the flight instructor needs to consider time of day
when scheduling the flight. Time of day is a factor in traffic
congestion, possible winds, sun angles, and reflection.
If possible, the flight instructor needs access to a portable
radio during any supervised solo operations. A radio enables
the instructor to terminate the solo operation if he or she
observes a situation developing. The flight instructor must
use good judgment when communicating with a solo student.
Keep all radio communications to a minimum. Do not talk to
the student on short final of the landing approach.

Post-Solo Debriefing
During a post-solo debriefing, the flight instructor discusses
what took place during the student’s solo flight. It is important
for the flight instructor to answer any questions the student
may have as result of a solo flight. Instructors need to be
involved in all aspects of the flight to ensure the student
utilizes correct flight procedures. It is very important for the
flight instructor to debrief a student immediately after a solo
flight. With the flight vividly etched in the student’s memory,
questions about the flight will come quickly.

You'll get hanged by the FAA if they find out you weren't at your student's first solo and they pranged the aircraft.
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It's not hard to find a FAA publication that conflicts with about anyone's operating practice. Non-regulatory. The FAA is going to "hang" anyone that were to lose a student. At the end of the day the FAA can only hang you so bad. It's the civil suit you need to fear.
 
jesse said:
It's not hard to find a FAA publication that conflicts with about anyone's operating practice. Non-regulatory. The FAA is going to "hang" anyone that were to lose a student. At the end of the day the FAA can only hang you so bad. It's the civil suit you need to fear.
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So why would you continue to be stubborn and put yourself in more risk in a civil suit by not following the FAA recommended practices?

Yeah, you could still get sued either way, but you have a much better defense if you followed FAA guidelines versus blatantly disregarding them.
 
jesse said:
Supervised solo basically means you supervised the decision for the student to go solo. Once they climb into the airplane I head home. I might watch them takeoff for sentimental purposes but I'm sure not of any use on the ground. I can't see **** anyways from where I can be without the airport police running me off.
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Wait, you send a student up on first solo and you leave? You don't even stick around to cut his shirt, shake his hand, whatever?
 
philiplane said:
As an Army aviator, you have been the recipient of north of a million dollars worth of flight training, at taxpayer expense. I have paid a little short of a million dollars in taxes over the last 40 years, so you should be a little more grateful that folks like me have made your life possible.
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First, are you serious? You do realize I pay taxes as well? Secondly, I love what I do for the Army and I gladly fly my Apache everyday I can (Burning your tax dollars.) But, I think you should be a little more grateful people like ME exist so you can freely attend schools to get all those fancy certificates you hold. I must thank you for making me laugh though. It was worth the read! Hope all is well for you and I look forward to talking to you again soon!
 
Turningfinal said:
So why would you continue to be stubborn and put yourself in more risk in a civil suit by not following the FAA recommended practices?

Yeah, you could still get sued either way, but you have a much better defense if you followed FAA guidelines versus blatantly disregarding them.
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because it's his choice. He's explained his reasoning.
:deadhorse:


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
 
Soldier64 said:
Is this normal? Sorry for the slight rant...
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As you found out, nothing is "normal" in the civilian world. People charge in many different ways. I wouldn't consider it unusual, however, to incur a charge during a student solo if the CFI (oops, I mean flight instructor) is there watching.
 
alfadog said:
Wait, you send a student up on first solo and you leave? You don't even stick around to cut his shirt, shake his hand, whatever?
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Nope. Like many other pilots (seems to be a theme in the aviation world), he's set in his ways and won't budge even when presented with recommendations to the contrary. It's sad, really.
 
Turningfinal said:
Nope. Like many other pilots (seems to be a theme in the aviation world), he's set in his ways and won't budge even when presented with recommendations to the contrary. It's sad, really.
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My "way" is not to leave. My way is to do what makes sense given the circumstances. That's a detail that it seems like some people in this thread aren't willing to grasp.

With that, I'm done :)

TMetzinger said:
because it's his choice. He's explained his reasoning.
:deadhorse:


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
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Exactly Tim!
 
My first solo the instructor hung around the airport but he wasn't really paying close attention. A group was all inside shooting the breeze with the airport manager when I got done and put the airplane away. No shirttail, no hoopla. Just, "congrats" from the usual FBO bunch. And old guy advice and tall tales. Just another day at the airport around the coffee pot. Oh yeah... "The kid" soloed the 150 today. Yawn. Anti-climactic.

He then put a continuous solo endorsement for below specific X winds in my logbook because he knew I'd want to go practice some more if he wasn't available. 'Cause that's just my personality type. He asked that I call him prior to review weather. Often he'd be available to come out anyway so we'd go work on XC and ground ref and what not. If not, I'd go bounce around the pattern.

If you're ready to solo, you're ready to solo. If you're not, you're not.

Having been to LNK, doing the tower thing would be a PITA. It's a long at from the GA ramp. You'd probably get up there about halfway through the second lap around the pattern. And you can't even see the close runway across the huge ramp. The far runway even binoculars wouldn't be much use.

There seems to be a bigger push than ever to make solo a big deal. I think it does us all a disservice in many ways. Solo is just an early stepping stone and making it too big a deal takes away from the feeling that you still have a lot to learn. The airport bums of the past made sure in an odd way that I knew it was just a required step and there was lots more to learn. The feel was, "good job. Now you can get on to learning how to fly." ;)

So mixing all of the above, I can see both sides of it. If you wanna watch, watch. If you wanna leave, leave. If you did your job right no problems. If you did it wrong all you're doing is watching the train wreck from your own bad teaching.
 
As an Army aviator, you have been the recipient of north of a million dollars worth of flight training, at taxpayer expense. I have paid a little short of a million dollars in taxes over the last 40 years, so you should be a little more grateful that folks like me have made your life possible.

In addition to paying for ALL of your training, I paid for ALL of my training through commercial, CFI, A&P, IA, avionics tech, etc. A little more than $70,000 over the last 30 years. I would never begrudge a CFI 0.7 to watch someone solo. Or yell at the guy who tried to have a little fun answering, essentially, a stupid question.

Lighten up, let's have a little fun here!

Cheers!

PS, I charge $100 hourly, but you can donate my fee to charity.



Are you serious??? I joined this forum just to respond to this message.

It takes a special kind of stupid to post something like that. Did you even think about what you were writing or are you just blinded by your own arrogance?

He should be grateful? Really? If it wasn't for the military and the men and women who step forward and raise their right hand to defend this country, people like you would not have the privilege to putt around in those little spam cans. It is you who should be grateful.

Pilots seem to have this holier-than-thou attitude because "less than 1% of the population can do what I do." Guess what, less than 1% of the population has the courage and dedication to join the military and put their lives on the line for someone else. You wouldn't know about selfless service because you are too busy bitching about what you think you are entitled to.

The fact that you paid for your flight training does not impress me in the slightest. I also paid for my education and it cost a hell of a lot more than your flying. And everyone pays taxes. You know, the whole death and taxes thing. Yeah, even the people in the military.

I guess I should respond to the content of this thread before I get kicked off this site. As a student pilot, I want my instructor to be there during my first solo and I will gladly compensate him for his time. As a lawyer, I would say it's foolish for a CFI to leave while the student solos. The CFI might not be able to grab control of the plane if something goes wrong, but I will destroy you and your school if you left to go to your "real job" and the student ended up a "pile of steaming debris." Imagine answering those questions in front of a jury. (by the way, this post should not be considered legal advice, consult your own attorney).

I should point out that my comments have a slight bias because I am also in the military. Sorry for the rant, I guess that's just what us military people do.

Oh yeah, and thanks for the opportunity and making my life possible. I really enjoyed all the MREs and marches to nowhere.
 
Well, I'm not going to get into the bashing Jesse mob...but on my student's first solo, after two or three good landings, we taxi back to the FBO where I endorse the student's logbook and certificate...and then I get out and kick back in front of the FBO and watch/listen as they do their patterns.

A handheld is with me to talk to them if needed....but usually the only thing I ever say is "nice job" after their third landing and they're ready to taxi back to the FBO.

Oh, and I also always ask the line guys to allow me to marshal the student into their parking space. :D

After the airplane is secured and we conduct all the ceremonial stuff (shirt cut and photos) we head back inside the FBO and do a quick debrief.

And FWIW...for that first solo I do not charge for my ground time...yes, I am supervising and I'm there to help if needed, but in reality it's as much a thrill and enjoyment for me when they solo as it is for them. The student has already "paid me" for my time by conducting a good, safe first solo.

Just my 2 cents.......

Mike

Sent from my home computer using my fingers
 
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goose said:
As an Army aviator, you have been the recipient of north of a million dollars worth of flight training, at taxpayer expense. I have paid a little short of a million dollars in taxes over the last 40 years, so you should be a little more grateful that folks like me have made your life possible.

In addition to paying for ALL of your training, I paid for ALL of my training through commercial, CFI, A&P, IA, avionics tech, etc. A little more than $70,000 over the last 30 years. I would never begrudge a CFI 0.7 to watch someone solo. Or yell at the guy who tried to have a little fun answering, essentially, a stupid question.

Lighten up, let's have a little fun here!

Cheers!

PS, I charge $100 hourly, but you can donate my fee to charity.



Are you serious??? I joined this forum just to respond to this message.

It takes a special kind of stupid to post something like that. Did you even think about what you were writing or are you just blinded by your own arrogance?

He should be grateful? Really? If it wasn't for the military and the men and women who step forward and raise their right hand to defend this country, people like you would not have the privilege to putt around in those little spam cans. It is you who should be grateful.

Pilots seem to have this holier-than-thou attitude because "less than 1% of the population can do what I do." Guess what, less than 1% of the population has the courage and dedication to join the military and put their lives on the line for someone else. You wouldn't know about selfless service because you are too busy bitching about what you think you are entitled to.

The fact that you paid for your flight training does not impress me in the slightest. I also paid for my education and it cost a hell of a lot more than your flying. And everyone pays taxes. You know, the whole death and taxes thing. Yeah, even the people in the military.

I guess I should respond to the content of this thread before I get kicked off this site. As a student pilot, I want my instructor to be there during my first solo and I will gladly compensate him for his time. As a lawyer, I would say it's foolish for a CFI to leave while the student solos. The CFI might not be able to grab control of the plane if something goes wrong, but I will destroy you and your school if you left to go to your "real job" and the student ended up a "pile of steaming debris." Imagine answering those questions in front of a jury. (by the way, this post should not be considered legal advice, consult your own attorney).

I should point out that my comments have a slight bias because I am also in the military. Sorry for the rant, I guess that's just what us military people do.

Oh yeah, and thanks for the opportunity and making my life possible. I really enjoyed all the MREs and marches to nowhere.
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Actually the percentage of people who have served in the military is closer to 9%. The 1% number is for current active military. The vast majority of people serve a tour then get out.

I'm not supporting the rant that you are referring to but rather want to see facts used to support your position. I would say that your response lowers you to his level and I'm betting you really did not want to do that.

As for the first OP, he said he had a commercial ticket already for rotary, I thought to get a civilian ticket you had to do some training and testing. If that is true then he should have had some experience with paying for training.
 
My instructor hung around on the ramp at LHC (Arlington,TN) for my solo... He kinda had to, if he wanted a ride back to NQA (NAS Millington, TN).
 
One thing I have learned this month doing a Bonanza insurance checkout with an instructor that is not associated with a flight school, FBO, or fleet of airplanes is that when you treat them well monetarily you will get a return that is often worth more than it cost you initially.

Just today on our last cross country flight for time building I bought the instructor lunch ($7) and at the end of the day he offered a $5/hr discount for the 5.5 hours of flying we did.
 
jtheune said:
As for the first OP, he said he had a commercial ticket already for rotary, I thought to get a civilian ticket you had to do some training and testing. If that is true then he should have had some experience with paying for training.
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The only thing I had to do after the military flight school was take the FAA written test. The price to administer the test was all I had to pay for the COM/IR ticket.

Goose, thanks for the support bro. Sorry to waste your first post on something like this.
 
It's been a long time since I was instructing, but I stood by the runway and watched my students do three full stop landings. As they taxied by, I'd give them a thumbs up to continue or a stop and let's talk. This was done at a busy (OK, it was busy back then) airport with a tower and scheduled airline service. I sometimes had the airport security folks come out, but a quick comment and a showing them my certificate got them to either leave or stay and watch. Yes, I had a handheld, but never transmitted once.

Since no one asked, I never did a first solo cold. It always came off a short lesson ended with something along the lines of "I'm tried of flying with you :D"

Yes, I charged them for my time. Bill, thank you for your service.
 
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I think Jesse's been bashed enough.

I am personally of the nervous Nellie school of solo signoffs- but I tend to solo them early-ish....really tough to do in an environment like KLNK. Lotsa corporate, 121, and military, and 3 long runways.

It would take a pair of 7 x 50's and a tripod to keep the student in view, and that if you were able to get on the roof of a Duncan hangar.

The value of soloing a student just after he has satisfied 61.87 and had hit five in a row without any intervention is that he begins to think, early, as "pic". But if I were soloing studs at LNK, I'd have to rethink my strategy of having the student key the mic every 5 seconds to say, "Airspeed 70"(or whatever it is), verbalizing what they all do on final....that will NOT work at LNK.

I also do one more thing that is getting to be known....we go to the pumps and put 25 gallons in the tanks (and he's fueling while I'm endorsing). I want it to fly JUST THE WAY HE DID the last 5x, with me in the window watching.

If you are a non-CFI following this string, just take away from this, that the solo signoff is not a science. It's an art.
 
bbchien said:
It would take a pair of 7 x 50's and a tripod to keep the student in view, and that if you were able to get on the roof of a Duncan hangar.
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ROFL! You have a way with words, Doc.

The good news is, Jesse could build a transponder-return auto-tracker for the tripod mount out of an Aduino. ;)
 
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