CFI, CFII Wife's co worker, wants to rent my plane

david.h

david.h

Pre-takeoff checklist
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david.h
I have looked through some of the threads on this but would appreciate current comments. My wife has a freind/co worker that is a CIFI CFII 1200+ hours and wants to rent my plane for a few hours to get his friends/family back in the air. He has recently gotten current again (assume 1.25 years without flying as transition from USCG to civilian) and is trying to find access to a plane for some airborne activities again. I am not opposed to letting this guy get a chance to put some hours on my plane (pa-28-181) since I don't get enough on it either. What is the insurance/cost/etc...issues I should understand to make this happen? Please point me to a thread if I have missed it, but just looking for general advice to get the conversation going at first. We plan to fly together soon and see what this guy is really made of in a small plane. I am an ASE and work for a GA company nearby, but don't have a ton of hours in all my years. I have flown (and flown in) this (my) plane for over 30 years since I was a kiddo. It has a great engine (350 hrs) and low (2300) hrs airframe. Panel is not new, just standard IFR with not current IFR GPS from 2001 ish (no map display, just orange text).
 
Have them over for dinner, feel him out, add him on the insurance if it seems kosher and work out the MX issues. Flying just for gas is gonna leave you holding the MX bill. Couple flights, ok, no biggie. Regularly flying? He’s on the hook for half of everything including hangar, property taxes and so on.
 
Think through how you would handle the dissolution part of any agreement you may make, whether equity or non-equity based.

Think about words like terms and conditions, access, restrictions and how violations of those things would be handled.

Is the friendship worth potential repercussions, especially if the co-worker becomes the boss.
 
Good broad-based advice line one. Good legal advice line two. She hired him, not likely at all (my wife is a bad ass and I'm scared of her; I'm a rocket scientist and she's smarter than me) line three. I'll take it all into consideration, thanks!
 
You might want to check with your insurance agent for starters. Could get complicated if he is giving instruction in your aircraft.
 
Out of curiosity, are there no aircraft rentals near you? Seeking 'alternative rental schemes' is usually a codeword for 'trying to pay less' -- which means you get to subsidize this person's flying.
 
schmookeeg said:
Out of curiosity, are there no aircraft rentals near you? Seeking 'alternative rental schemes' is usually a codeword for 'trying to pay less' -- which means you get to subsidize this person's flying.
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Where I am, I would love to find an alternative to open market rentals. While I understand your concern, open market, or even club, rentals are getting significant pressure. I have missed out on good flying days because of a lack of availability and taking a trip that keeps the plane longer than 24 hours is difficult due to scheduling, and even harder on weekends.
 
There are rentals of Archer''s on the field. I'm not trying to subsidize his flying, just wanting to give him an opportunity to fly my plane for equivalent $$ but at a benefit that I'll get CFI/CFII in my pocket for bfr and future IFR training if we gel together.

I see there is an hour breakdown where it transitions from friend/benefit situation to rental/MX cost situation. Where is that line?

When we make some sort of agreement, is it X (10 or 15?) hours of no worries, just insurance and gas... and then, from X hours plus, you must agree to joining a partnership in hangar,plane MX, and additive funding for future MX account. If you have input, please continue the conversation. ( I don't know X yet. Multi variable equation that is still loosely defined)

Edit:insurance and etc...costs also, full partnership agreement starting into effect.
 
Personally, I think understanding what his expectations of a potential deal and what he considers a fair remuneration schedule would be is a good starting point.

I don’t see any harm in just listening and asking him questions like ‘how do you see this working out?’ and leaving him with a ‘this is something I need to think about/research further, but I’m open to considering it’ type of response.

Or, alternatively, this is something I’m not interested in right now.

ETA: AOPA has some good points to ponder here:

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraf...ots-guide-to-co-ownership/agreement-checklist
 
“CIFI CFII 1200+ hours and wants to rent my plane for a few hours to get his friends/family back in the air.”

Does that mean he wants to rent your plane and instruct his family and friends or take them up?
 
In addition to the above, what happens if he prangs the airplane? I’d make sure that answer is perfectly clear between the two of you (and your insurance company). Requiring him to have a non-owned aircraft policy wouldn’t be unreasonable.
 
I do this with my 182, guy I know 3k hours. About 1k is 206. Insurance company wanted him to have a a checkout with me being I am a CFI. 2 hours flight no problem. Usually only takes it on a year. Charge him 120 an hour dry. Me. And my partner charge ourselves 65 an hour dry.
The OP guy could be long to save some money, but Anne he doesn’t want to rent some of the garbage out there. I have many people hinting around about using my plane. But it’s not gonna happen, I see how they treat rentals.
 
How would it affect you finanacially if someone angered in killing all aboard? Are you protected? Is it worth the risk. Sounds like you want to help, which is nice but..I have a similar situation. Where a guy rents time from me. I placed the aircraft in an LLC and run it as a business with separate bank accounts.

Everything is fine until it’s not. It can all go to crap in a real hurry. I would lean towards not doing it.
 
If he's giving you money, make sure your insurance company is on board because this sounds suspiciously close to a commercial rental operation. You might be forced into 100 hour inspections too if not entirely out of part 91.

yes, nobody probably cares right now. What will you do if he comes back in a month with two students who want to fly with him?
 
This just sounds all wrong.

Wants to rent my plane for a few hours to get his friends/family back in the air​

Then what? He's going to fly his spouse, his spawn, a few pals and then put it down? He's going to get going and transition to...what? I'd want a crapload more information before I allowed a complete stranger anywhere near one of my major investments in which he could easily financially ruin me.
 
david.h said:
would appreciate current comments
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FWIW: speak to a local attorney on liability issues. Every state is different. You'll still be the owner part of the "owner/operator" term mentioned in the FARs and responsible for the aircraft. Key is to separate the two terms as much as possible with the CFI as the operator. And get the maintenance cost worked out to the letter. The aircraft will need a regular 100hr for his instruction plus address incidents. Insurance was covered above. Had a few old customers that did this and I covered the mx. For some it worked, for others not as they thought. So YMMV. Good luck.
 
As an airplane owner, I've had many similar requests for non-equity partnership, buy time, etc.

What I found was that when the plane was being flown and I wasn't in it, it caused considerable stress for me. It just wasn't worth it. The other issue is that you will inevitably make the other person unhappy if you decide to terminate the arrangement. It's just not ideal.

I rarely turn down any opportunity for folks to fly my airplane, provided I'm at least in the right seat.
 
My answer has changed in the last year...don't do it unless you are upfront with your insurance carrier. Then consider the consequences...My airplane properly insured was involved in a fatal accident piloted by an ATP gold seal CFII who worked for the FAA....as of last two weeks ago I have three lawsuits pending from the accident...the dead don't pay but the living do...time and frustration have impacted me more than just financially...there is a personal loss as well that cant be measured when one of the fatalities was a little girl in the first grade. For what its worth no one is questioning the maintenance or airworthiness of the aircraft.
 
As mentioned above the legal problems can be a nightmare. When I had a partner we formed an LLC to protect each of us from the other..
 
Warlock said:
My answer has changed in the last year...don't do it unless you are upfront with your insurance carrier. Then consider the consequences...My airplane properly insured was involved in a fatal accident piloted by an ATP gold seal CFII who worked for the FAA....as of last two weeks ago I have three lawsuits pending from the accident...the dead don't pay but the living do...time and frustration have impacted me more than just financially...there is a personal loss as well that cant be measured when one of the fatalities was a little girl in the first grade. For what its worth no one is questioning the maintenance or airworthiness of the aircraft.
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I didn't "like" your post because it is so sad.. I'm so sorry to hear this happened. My CFI very, very occasionally borrows my plane when one of his is tied up w/ a 50hr, and I never gave it a second thought, figuring he's insured and covered. I asked my insurance broker if he needed to be a "named pilot" and the reply was negative, but now I'm not sure if that means "if he's giving me instruction," "if he's flying alone," or "if he's giving instruction to someone else." Guess I should check. I'm sorry, Warlock.
 
1RTK1 said:
As mentioned above the legal problems can be a nightmare. When I had a partner we formed an LLC to protect each of us from the other..
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I've got one of those. I'm fairly certain its useless for me. it isn't a company, it doesn't make money. All it does is house the airplane. I'm fairly certain any reasonably competent lawyer could pierce that veil, and I'm strongly thinking about dissolving it.
 
steingar said:
I've got one of those. I'm fairly certain its useless for me. it isn't a company, it doesn't make money. All it does is house the airplane. I'm fairly certain any reasonably competent lawyer could pierce that veil, and I'm strongly thinking about dissolving it.
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Perhaps yes. Talking with my lawyer, it was emphasized to me that I have to run it as a business. Bank accounts tax returns, etc. I don’t have to make a profit but it has to be run like a business. So any work that’s done to it is paid out of that business account, any deposits go into that business account. The good news is is that you can sell the plane to the LLC and deduct it 100%and do a pass-through to your personal income tax liability.
 
steingar said:
I've got one of those. I'm fairly certain its useless for me. it isn't a company, it doesn't make money. All it does is house the airplane. I'm fairly certain any reasonably competent lawyer could pierce that veil, and I'm strongly thinking about dissolving it.
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If you don’t have any partners it won’t protect you from yourself.
 
Some of this can all work out fine, until it doesn’t. I’m not even saying not to do it, we can all ‘what-if’ ourselves to death. On the other hand, seemingly simple stuff can trip people up & rear it’s head.

At the least, talk a bit, maybe fly together.

Years ago I was motor biking with a longtime motorcycle driving relative. Later in the ride we switched bikes for awhile, more his idea than mine. While talking over a bite he mentioned how he ‘got to 70mph in 2nd gear’? I’m thinking WTF? Why you doing that then kinda bragging about it? I’m a lot softer on my bike when riding, never again.
 
It all sounds to me like, “hey you got an airplane”. “ I fly. It would be great to have access to an airplane without actually having to buy an airplane. Can we rent your plane for cheap” ?
 
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