CFI and student die in crash SMO

I did my PPL training in a Remos GX light sport and it was extremely sensitive to control inputs. If Czech Sports are anything like that, I can see how an inexperienced (or panicked) person could go nearly vertical.
My (very experienced) instructor reminded me MANY, MANY times before I took the controls for real that you can fly the plane with 2 fingers on the stick. He said the red flag for him is anyone grabbing the stick like a fighter pilot, they're were much more likely to do something extremely unwise.
 
I am a new CFI but have had to save the airplane several times already - only one time we were in a spot that if left to continue would definitely have broken something. The others were only to the level of probably breaking something. I was always told to cover the students eyes with a free hand, but that can be hard to do on landing when low and slow. One hand over the students eyes, one on the throttle, and the other on the yoke. :D
 
Zeldman said:
I had a few moments of great concern as an instructor, but nothing was as terrifying as teaching my wife to drive a car....
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Still married?

I remember when my dad tried to teach my mom to fly…when she decided to take lessons form someone else, they couldn’t even talk about her lessons.
 
Tom Wells said:
I did my PPL training in a Remos GX light sport and it was extremely sensitive to control inputs. If Czech Sports are anything like that, I can see how an inexperienced (or panicked) person could go nearly vertical.
My (very experienced) instructor reminded me MANY, MANY times before I took the controls for real that you can fly the plane with 2 fingers on the stick. He said the red flag for him is anyone grabbing the stick like a fighter pilot, they're were much more likely to do something extremely unwise.
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I love that about LSAs - I trained on the same Remos ( SimplyFly I presume ) and loved that you could fly it with just fingertips - my current plane is pretty much like that as well.
Most certified GA planes feel heavy and unresponsive by comparisons …
 
Tom Wells said:
I did my PPL training in a Remos GX light sport and it was extremely sensitive to control inputs. If Czech Sports are anything like that, I can see how an inexperienced (or panicked) person could go nearly vertical.
My (very experienced) instructor reminded me MANY, MANY times before I took the controls for real that you can fly the plane with 2 fingers on the stick. He said the red flag for him is anyone grabbing the stick like a fighter pilot, they're were much more likely to do something extremely unwise.
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Not saying they don't, but do fighter pilots actually fly by grabbing the stick?
 
PaulS said:
I had an instructor tell me about a student who froze up on the controls, he said he whacked the guy in the chest about 3 times before he let go. I think I would use a closed fist to the nose. It can definitely be a life or death situation. My primary instructor came to lesson pale one day, I asked him if he was sick, he said no, a student put them into an incipient spin on a turn in the pattern.
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When I was going through CFI training, my instructor asked me if I knew where the fire extinguisher was. He said I need to keep it within reach because I may have to hit the student with it some day. Luckily I never had to do that yet.
 
It's late, I have to get up in a few hours, and I should be sleeping instead of ruminating on difficult subjects. Some accidents cause me to ignore the aviation aspect and the discussions about the cause, and instead I consider those that must absorb the painful news their loved ones have passed and that they had no opportunity to have that last conversation. Of course many times we don't get that luxury, but aircraft accidents seem to be especially cruel. I know from experience.

I think listening to the radio transmission makes it quite clear what transpired, and it's terribly sad. Neither of the two woke up this morning with the slightest notion it was the last day of their lives.

As the ancient text reads, fate decrees and we must obey.
 
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DesertNomad said:
I am a new CFI but have had to save the airplane several times already - only one time we were in a spot that if left to continue would definitely have broken something. The others were only to the level of probably breaking something. I was always told to cover the students eyes with a free hand, but that can be hard to do on landing when low and slow. One hand over the students eyes, one on the throttle, and the other on the yoke. :D
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I've never been a CFI, and it's been a looong time since my days of dual instruction; however, I've never heard of the technique of covering a student's eyes if they're doing something dangerous. Is this a common technique these days?
 
Capngrog said:
I've never been a CFI, and it's been a looong time since my days of dual instruction; however, I've never heard of the technique of covering a student's eyes if they're doing something dangerous. Is this a common technique these days?
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As I understand it, it's how they get horses out of barns that are on fire. I suppose it would work on people, too.

CFI's aren't paid enough.

Random thought - if I were an instructor, and flying something with actual sticks, I'd be wondering if I could make a "breakaway" stick for the student. Like a regular stick, but with the bottom part maybe about like a 1/2" or 5/8" dowel. Something that would let them fly the plane, but that I could overpower and break free from my set of controls if they tried to kill us. Might sound like I'm joking, and I know it wouldn't pass an inspection, but I'm not joking.
 
Wooden break away stick? Let me be the first in line to say that the survivors of the person who rents the plane next would see you in court for good cause. Better to be on your toes, brief and practice “I’ve got it.” And don’t let 15 year olds do a landing in a lightly controlled LSA without ground school. Psychology of brain development enters into this.

In the case before us, by the time the pitch went past 45 in a plane, especially one that has little mass but good control authority, you aren’t going to save it by reaching for a fire extinguisher. Better to not to practice full landings without a full practice of following through on the controls with one finger for landing during the first discovery flight. What I learn is a 15 year old during a discovery flight is a scenic flight with a little bit of gentle control usage at altitude before the pattern.

Teaching RC pilots when they start to bang the sticks against the stops I say I’ve got it. Brain lock and flailing at the sticks. First flight usually within two minutes.
 
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My Dad had a student freeze on the controls of an SNJ (Navy T-6) in a spin. It seems the stick in the read was removeable, so he used as a club to get the guy's attention.

I had been giving a friend (a CFI) some aerobatic dual in a 7KCAB. One thing I taught him was that once you do past vertical, you do NOT pull, you push, roll, then pull. He had a young lady that one day straight armed the yoke in a Tomahawk and locked her elbows. He got her off the controls by hammering his forearm against her elbow. He remembered the lesson, rolled and pulled. And recovered at less than 100 feet. If he had pulled back through the vertical, they would have hit the ground.
 
I picked up a friend at KSMO this weekend and noticed that all of these LSA were blue taped over. Kathryn's Report comment indicates that they were "all grounded by the FAA" but I don't know if there is any legitimacy to that. Anybody else have insight?
 
hindsight2020 said:
protip from those of us in the full-time puppy mill biznazz: generally, covering the eyes and nose will prompt a reflexive response for the frozen person in question to move at least one of his hands to his/her face, allowing for the controls to be forced back from them. Don't be gentle either, you have to trigger the fight/flight response by striking and pressing/pushing into the person's nugget, like you would the head of a dog that's locking up on you. krav maga FTW.

If you're not prepared to strike a woman in the face, this job might not be for you. I'm genderblind like that. *checks for wife missile lock spike on RWR* *sighs nervously* :D
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Yup. Cops with plenty of experience going "hands on" will tell you that an upwards shot to the nose will cause just about anyone to stop what they are doing for a moment. I'd probably backfist the student hard right in the snoz and then seize the controls while they react to that.
 
Pinecone said:
My Dad had a student freeze on the controls of an SNJ (Navy T-6) in a spin. It seems the stick in the read was removeable, so he used as a club to get the guy's attention.
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That's terrifying. From what I have been told, the T-6 is not a forgiving airplane. I was talking to an owner at SnF about what it takes to own and fly one (might be on my list one day). He pointed out that on the edge of the cockpit, where it would be the last thing he sees before climbing in, are stenciled the words "DON'T STALL."
 
skyking3286 said:
Wooden break away stick? Let me be the first in line to say that the survivors of the person who rents the plane next would see you in court for good cause. Better to be on your toes, brief and practice “I’ve got it.” And don’t let 15 year olds do a landing in a lightly controlled LSA without ground school. Psychology of brain development enters into this.
...
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It wouldn't be rentable, or flyable, except for instruction, of course. And it may only be appropriate for the first couple of flights, where the instructor is covering the controls anyway. Power on stalls on take off can happen pretty quickly, and the reaction to recover needs to be very quick, as you know.

I didn't even think about RC training. That I've done. It's been a while, but when I was doing it with a pair of linked radios, I had to hold up on a spring loaded switch with my left hand to allow the student to have control. As soon as I let off that switch, the controls were mine. And in that case, the only really serious danger was of the student flying into a bystander. More likely they just stall/spin. Fast forward to full sized aircraft, and whomever has the strongest arms wins. Now that only comes up when a student "locks up", and I'm thinking that's rare, but it's a pretty lousy outcome when it happens. It would be nice if there were a simple way to let the instructor override. Now back to the dowel thing, I'm talking about something that under normal control load would never break. For instance, say 80 lbs on the end of the stick. And only for the student's stick. Or maybe a really, really stiff spring. Just a thought.
 
skyking3286 said:
Wooden break away stick? Let me be the first in line to say that the survivors of the person who rents the plane next would see you in court for good cause. Better to be on your toes, brief and practice “I’ve got it.” And don’t let 15 year olds do a landing in a lightly controlled LSA without ground school. Psychology of brain development enters into this.
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I have to give credit to my primary flight instructor who took me on as a 13 year old student who outweighed her by a good margin (I'm 6'6" and 200lbs as an adult now but was probably 5'10" and 140 lbs back then while she was 5'0" and ~90lbs). She certainly made me think I did the landing the first time (although I wouldn't doubt she was coaxing the controls along the way) but if I had death gripped them, she would have had a fight on her hands.
 
Albany Tom said:
As I understand it, it's how they get horses out of barns that are on fire. I suppose it would work on people, too.

CFI's aren't paid enough.

Random thought - if I were an instructor, and flying something with actual .
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Albany Tom said:
As I understand it, it's how they get horses out of barns that are on fire. I suppose it would work on people, too.
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Probably not. Horses are herd animals. Their basic instinct is to stay with the herd. That is where they are safe. Covering their eyes defeats the instinct.

Humans - yes, even Student Pilots - don’t have that instinct, or at least not to the same degree.

-Skip
 
Very sad! I just don’t understand that if you are that close to touch down (slow speed) how can you pitch up and gain a 100’ of altitude?
 
Agree, A quick punch in the nose would move anyone to throw their hands to the face in response. But vertical at 100 feet, well… there are times when it’s just not possible to get out of a situation.
 
There ARE places a student can get a CFI in a corner that one cannot instantaneously get them out of. It's a reality, and it can happen to more experienced instructors, too, but rookies are definitely less likely to be prepared for it. It's too bad that the economics of flight instruction don't favor a system similar to the USAAF in WWII, deliberately sending veterans back after so many sorties to teach the rookies how to survive.
 
Rico Burgos said:
Very sad! I just don’t understand that if you are that close to touch down (slow speed) how can you pitch up and gain a 100’ of altitude?
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I can definitely see it. The plane still has a considerable amount of kinetic energy in it just prior to touchdown. Imagine how far a car at 70mph can coast up a hill. Normally this energy is bled off via the brakes and/or aerodynamic braking as the speed safely reduces to zero on the runway.

The speed can also be bled off by a panicked student cranking full-back on the stick. The first couple dozen feet are easy before leaving ground effect. Then the mix of upward momentum and AoA carry it up the rest of the way as the drag takes hold, eventually sapping the last of that kinetic energy in a much more precarious position, 10 stories up and in an unusual attitude, still cranking back on the stick
 
RyanShort1 said:
There ARE places a student can get a CFI in a corner that one cannot instantaneously get them out of. It's a reality, and it can happen to more experienced instructors, too, but rookies are definitely less likely to be prepared for it. It's too bad that the economics of flight instruction don't favor a system similar to the USAAF in WWII, deliberately sending veterans back after so many sorties to teach the rookies how to survive.
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IMO, the instructor was not paying attention then.

An instructor should be ahead of the student and 100% sure they can get the plane out of the situation NOW, and the situation in the near future.
 
Pinecone said:
IMO, the instructor was not paying attention then.

An instructor should be ahead of the student and 100% sure they can get the plane out of the situation NOW, and the situation in the near future.
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That’s overly optimistic. For instance, a stronger student can apply more force than a CFI can resist, on occasion, or sharply enough to take a split second to react. A student did that to me - while deliberately guarding the stick, on a wheel landing in a Cub. Inexplicably and against our briefing, he shoved the stick as far forward as it would go and took my guarding hand forward in the process. I got it back, but not before we splintered 6 inches of the wooden prop. I could tell other stories, too. You really can’t prevent everything unless you simply choose to stay on the ground.

Should every student / CFI matchup include a strength test? A cognition and reflex test? Should female CFI's not be allowed to teach guys? Should I not be allowed to teach someone with a hand 10% bigger than mine?
 
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RyanShort1 said:
That’s overly optimistic. For instance, a stronger student can apply more force than a CFI can resist, on occasion, or sharply enough to take a split second to react. A student did that to me - while deliberately guarding the stick, on a wheel landing in a Cub. Inexplicably and against our briefing, he shoved the stick as far forward as it would go and took my guarding hand forward in the process. I got it back, but not before we splintered 6 inches of the wooden prop. I could tell other stories, too. You really can’t prevent everything unless you simply choose to stay on the ground.

Should every student / CFI matchup include a strength test? A cognition and reflex test? Should female CFI's not be allowed to teach guys? Should I not be allowed to teach someone with a hand 10% bigger than mine?
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That's part of the hazard of being a flight instructor. I think it's probably impossible to tell how a student will react in a stressful situation or when they are panicked.
 
RyanShort1 said:
A student did that to me - while deliberately guarding the stick, on a wheel landing in a Cub. Inexplicably and against our briefing, he shoved the stick as far forward as it would go and took my guarding hand forward in the process.
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Did you find out why they did that? I'm still wondering about the student causing the accident in this thread too.

And yes, I'm sure that if I really wanted to, I could easily cause a horrible accident despite my CFI's attempts at correction. Causing a severe roll right after takeoff, for example. My CFI is not a big guy, and as you said, it becomes a strength contest during a phase of flight where only seconds are available before catastrophe. I do have a lot of respect for him as he put his life in my hands from the start of our relationship, at which point he knew nothing about me. It's not a job for the faint-hearted, for sure.
 
Baked Potato said:
Did you find out why they did that? I'm still wondering about the student causing the accident in this thread too.
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The weirdest part was that he was a private pilot, with maybe 2-300 hours, and we had literally just briefed NOT doing that, but only moving the stick an inch or so forward on a wheel landing. You'd think that by that time a pilot would understand aerodynamics enough NOT to do that. No, I still don't know what went wrong in his head to do that. It just happens sometimes.
 
PaulS said:
That's part of the hazard of being a flight instructor. I think it's probably impossible to tell how a student will react in a stressful situation or when they are panicked.
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The best thing to do is to introduce them to things first at altitude, and work your way down. There are often good clues about how crazy a student could get, but every once in a while someone surprises you.
 
So, for instance, doing slow flight at 2000’+ AGL should come before landings, IMO…
 
RyanShort1 said:
So, for instance, doing slow flight at 2000’+ AGL should come before landings, IMO…
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They did for me. I know that my experience is different than a lot of accounts I read on forums, but I didn't perform a landing until my sixth lesson. I don't believe it's due to my individual knowledge or performance - I did well in maneuvers in my first lessons - but is likely in line with either this particular school's policy or with my CFIs comfort level. I didn't ask. And I didn't push the issue. I have absolute respect for any safety protocol they have and for any hesitance my CFI may have had with introducing new concepts to me before he's comfortable with my development.

My first few lessons had a lot of slow flight and power-on and -off stalls, all above 2000 or 2500 agl.
 
RyanShort1 said:
The weirdest part was that he was a private pilot, with maybe 2-300 hours, and we had literally just briefed NOT doing that, but only moving the stick an inch or so forward on a wheel landing. You'd think that by that time a pilot would understand aerodynamics enough NOT to do that. No, I still don't know what went wrong in his head to do that. It just happens sometimes.
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So did you sign him off??:p
 
RyanShort1 said:
There are often good clues about how crazy a student could get, but every once in a while someone surprises you.
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This is a good rubric for people in general I think.

I do note that the further away from someone in age I am, the less our assumptions about anything match up. So I'm on guard with 20-somethings just like I am with 60-somethings. Other middle aged weirdos and I get along great while training, and not much need to dwell on mutually obvious things. :D
 
Tom Wells said:
I did my PPL training in a Remos GX light sport and it was extremely sensitive to control inputs. If Czech Sports are anything like that, I can see how an inexperienced (or panicked) person could go nearly vertical.
My (very experienced) instructor reminded me MANY, MANY times before I took the controls for real that you can fly the plane with 2 fingers on the stick. He said the red flag for him is anyone grabbing the stick like a fighter pilot, they're were much more likely to do something extremely unwise.
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they are precisely like that. it takes an absolutely tiny amount of back pressure to initiate the "flare" for the landing, maybe 1" of travel at most

you fly and land them by barely touching the stick, so you are not really holding it firmly. if a student just suddenly yanks it back, you're absolutely pitching way up before you have a chance to realize and counter what's happening

the other part of this is that SMO is full of cameras and has the high resolution landing fee system, so they almost certainly have clear cut video of the incident. i doubt we will ever see it, though i think it would be helpful to all of us just asking "why?"
 
drummer4468 said:
I can definitely see it. The plane still has a considerable amount of kinetic energy in it just prior to touchdown. Imagine how far a car at 70mph can coast up a hill. Normally this energy is bled off via the brakes and/or aerodynamic braking as the speed safely reduces to zero on the runway.

The speed can also be bled off by a panicked student cranking full-back on the stick. The first couple dozen feet are easy before leaving ground effect. Then the mix of upward momentum and AoA carry it up the rest of the way as the drag takes hold, eventually sapping the last of that kinetic energy in a much more precarious position, 10 stories up and in an unusual attitude, still cranking back on the stick
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I'm thinking to go vertical like that, the cfi might have pushed in the power for a go around hoping they'd let go. IDK if there was witness statement as to whether they heard the engine rpm's come up or not. I wonder, if they did add power, if the outcome would have been any better without it.
 
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