Cessna Down at Los Banos Ca

Here's the only part of that statement that I would consider cruel and not fact based;
While we will not discuss specifics pending the findings of investigators, we are aware that early indications point to factors unrelated to mechanical malfunction. We are fully cooperating with the authorities as they examine all aspects of this tragic event, including the possibility of intentional actions by the pilot.
So not going to talk about specifics, but:
A. Allege that "early indications point to factors unrelated to mechanical malfunction". That sounds a lot like discussing specifics, but with zero factual information to back it up
B. "Including the possibility of intentional actions by the pilot" That also sounds very specific and has a strong implication of suicide. That last part is cruel to the pilot's family, even if it ultimately proves to be true. They may well know something that the general public doesn't, but the folks to share that with would be the investigation team, not the entire world.

I have no earthly idea who thought that would be helpful to their business, the general public or any other stakeholder.

If they had left that part out and merely said "we are awaiting the outcome of the investigation and cooperating with the NTSB/FAA it would have been fine.
 
Hang 4 said:
If they had left that part out and merely said "we are awaiting the outcome of the investigation and cooperating with the NTSB/FAA it would have been fine.
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That kind of sums up my thoughts on public speculation on accidents in general. I agree the statement was in poor taste, but not sure why the public airing is so much worse than when intentional suicide or gross incompetence is brought up here unsubstantiated.

Nauga,
looking inward
 
nauga said:
That kind of sums up my thoughts on public speculation on accidents in general. I agree the statement was in poor taste, but not sure why the public airing is so much worse than when intentional suicide or gross incompetence is brought up here unsubstantiated.

Nauga,
looking inward
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Really? You equate idle armchair speculations from Joe Q. Internet with a public statement from the owner/operator of the accident plane who the deceased pilot was a customer of?
 
nauga said:
That kind of sums up my thoughts on public speculation on accidents in general. I agree the statement was in poor taste, but not sure why the public airing is so much worse than when intentional suicide or gross incompetence is brought up here unsubstantiated.

Nauga,
looking inward
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Quoting because I can't like the post twice.
 
Hengelo said:
My dude. I say this with love; take a beat and think about it.
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No. You tell me.
And then tell me why anything in the statement is more cruel than the rank speculation that a sloppy mechanic killed this pilot, which began in post #5.
 
nauga said:
That kind of sums up my thoughts on public speculation on accidents in general. I agree the statement was in poor taste, but not sure why the public airing is so much worse than when intentional suicide or gross incompetence is brought up here unsubstantiated.

Nauga,
looking inward
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I think the difference is here we are mostly fact free. There's an implication that the folks that made this statement are in a position to know more than John Q Public.
As an aside, not sure it's ever in good taste to allege suicide in an absence of facts.
 
schmookeeg said:
Really? You equate idle armchair speculations from Joe Q. Internet with a public statement from the owner/operator of the accident plane who the deceased pilot was a customer of?
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In the context of the subject's family potentially reading upsetting material during the worst time of their lives I do equate them. I find them equally distasteful and I don't try to rationalize speculation.

Hang 4 said:
I think the difference is here we are mostly fact free. There's an implication that the folks that made this statement are in a position to know more than John Q Public.
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I don't think anyone here has any way of judging the veracity of it...but people here are, for certain.

Hang 4 said:
As an aside, not sure it's ever in good taste to allege suicide in an absence of facts.
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I agree. I also think we should not keep quiet about it when it becomes an established factor in an accident. Families might read about it; I understand and I know it's painful, but once determined to be a causal factor it cannot remain taboo if we're really going to make rational risk assessments from accident data.

Nauga,
from behind the curtain
 
Families who just lost someone are generally not browsing the Internet looking for comments on discussion boards.

They ARE paying close attention to relevant sources of factual info, especially public statements by parties to the event, as they try to understand what happened.

That is the difference.
 
If you all worried about what you as a pilot that crashes and what other pilots may say about your crash then stay on the ground then. Flying is dangerous and can easily get yourself killed.
 
Lindberg said:
But I'd bet in this case the owners were on scene before the NTSB since it was near the airport. I'd bet they were there when the NTSB examined the wreckage. And I'd bet they have some knowledge about what other factors might be at play.
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You could lose that bet.

We had a recent fatal crash at our airport 1/4 mile off the departure end of the runway. The Police and Fire Department showed up nearly instantly, thanked and then chased away locals who witnessed the crash and ran into the cornfield, hoping to find survivors they could assist. The pilot was obviously deceased. The County coroner was called and the body removed by members of the fire department.

The aircraft was guarded by the Police Auxillary and nobody was allowed near the plane until the NTSB showed up the next day. After the NTSB left, a group of Civil Air Patrol members, in uniform, guarded all access points around the wreckage until the NTSB was finished a few days later. A flatbed truck was called in to cart away the wreckage to a hangar somewhere in the region.

Finally the farmer could once again tend to his field.
 
Rick A said:
You could lose that bet.
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Well, it's three bets, and I could. Are you going to win?
Rick A said:
We had a recent fatal crash at our airport 1/4 mile off the departure end of the runway. The Police and Fire Department showed up nearly instantly, thanked and then chased away locals who witnessed the crash and ran into the cornfield, hoping to find survivors they could assist. The pilot was obviously deceased. The County coroner was called and the body removed by members of the fire department.
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Was the pilot the owner?
Rick A said:
The aircraft was guarded by the Police Auxillary and nobody was allowed near the plane until the NTSB showed up the next day.
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Including the owner?
 
Lindberg said:
And then tell me why anything in the statement is more cruel than the rank speculation that a sloppy mechanic killed this pilot, which began in post #5.
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Post # 5 Quote: "There's probably going to be a mechanic and other flight school personnel whose lives will be turned completely upside down very soon".

Rank speculation? No more of a speculation than your statement in Post # 71 giving a pass to the appropriateness of: "As long as the, "we are aware that early indications point to factors unrelated to mechanical malfunction," bit is factually accurate, I really don't see any rational objection to the company's statement".

You're going to find out, and everyone else, if it was an accurate foreboding of a suicide, or not. Same time as everyone else.

Regarding my statement about the employees lives at the Tradewinds business "are probably" going to be turned "upside down very soon". Why don't you stop in there for a visit and ask how it's going, and how much fun they're having showing up at work.

Tradewinds public statement clearly STATES that they have "early indications" of reliable inside knowledge that is presumed by all readers solid enough to mention in a public statement. The fact that they're selfishly not sharing this information, but yet decided to go public with it, is in my OPINION a heartless and low class decision. Proving to ME that the people involved that authorized then released it are simply low life scum who care very little about the family and friends of the deceased.

And I wouldn't believe anything coming from their camp.
 
Rick A said:
Post # 5 Quote: "There's probably going to be a mechanic and other flight school personnel whose lives will be turned completely upside down very soon".

Rank speculation?
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Yes.
Rick A said:
No more of a speculation than your statement in Post # 71 giving a pass to the appropriateness of: "As long as the, "we are aware that early indications point to factors unrelated to mechanical malfunction," bit is factually accurate, I really don't see any rational objection to the company's statement".
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That's a conditional statement. Also Charly expressed as an opinion. Not presented as fact.
Rick A said:
You're going to find out, and everyone else, if it was an accurate foreboding of a suicide, or not. Same time as everyone else.
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Well, not everyone else. Those involved in the investigation, those close to the pilot, and his family would probably know well before me. Or you.
Rick A said:
Regarding my statement about the employees lives at the Tradewinds business "are probably" going to be turned "upside down very soon". Why don't you stop in there for a visit and ask how it's going, and how much fun they're having showing up at work.
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It's a little far for me.
Rick A said:
Tradewinds public statement clearly STATES that they have "early indications" of reliable inside knowledge that is presumed by all readers solid enough to mention in a public statement. The fact that they're selfishly not sharing this information, but yet decided to go public with it, is in my OPINION a heartless and low class decision.
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How do you know they haven't shared it with the people who need to know? How do you know it wasn't shared with them to begin with?
Rick A said:
Proving to ME that the people involved that authorized then released it are simply low life scum who care very little about the family and friends of the deceased.
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You have a very low standard of proof.
Rick A said:
And I wouldn't believe anything coming from their camp.
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I wouldn't believe anything coming from anyone who asserts facts without evidence. If there Tradewinds statement is false, we'll likely hear that very quickly. But for all you know, the pilot left a note or told his mom he was going to end it. I'm not saying that's what happened, because I have no idea whether it did or didn't. Neither do you. But there's a very high probability that whatever Tradewinds knows, the investigators and the family know as well.
 
bonefishpete said:
If you all worried about what you as a pilot that crashes and what other pilots may say about your crash then stay on the ground then. Flying is dangerous and can easily get yourself killed.
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Perhaps you missed the part of Ed's post that mentioned his personal pain. It would be nice if everyone took notice.

I don't mean to speak for him, but a little compassion would be appreciated.
 
3393RP said:
Perhaps you missed the part of Ed's post that mentioned his personal pain. It would be nice if everyone took notice.

I don't mean to speak for him, but a little compassion would be appreciated.
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Sorry totally missed that part.
 
Lindberg said:
I wouldn't believe anything coming from anyone who asserts facts without evidence. If there Tradewinds statement is false, we'll likely hear that very quickly. But for all you know, the pilot left a note or told his mom he was going to end it. I'm not saying that's what happened, because I have no idea whether it did or didn't. Neither do you. But there's a very high probability that whatever Tradewinds knows, the investigators and the family know as well.
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Rank speculation. Great example.
 
I have been in the flight training business for way too many years. Recently I notice a ton of go pro mounts stuck all over my aircraft, inside and out. I sold a seminole a couple years ago and the school that bought it sent an instructor and a student to pick it up. The student grabs this camera device, bigger than a go pro and suction cups it on to the stabilator. I said WTF? that's a primary control surface and the look I got was of oblivious as to what that would mean.
I take the "may be intentional act of the pilot" to possibly mean this. The pilot may have jammed the controls with a go pro that came loose and stuck in the aileron or something.
 
OBrien Aviation said:
I have been in the flight training business for way too many years. Recently I notice a ton of go pro mounts stuck all over my aircraft, inside and out. I sold a seminole a couple years ago and the school that bought it sent an instructor and a student to pick it up. The student grabs this camera device, bigger than a go pro and suction cups it on to the stabilator. I said WTF? that's a primary control surface and the look I got was of oblivious as to what that would mean.
I take the "may be intentional act of the pilot" to possibly mean this. The pilot may have jammed the controls with a go pro that came loose and stuck in the aileron or something.
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It would be quite sad if an intentional act had unintended consequences. Sad, but not rare.
 
If you are on social media sites, you notice that in the past few years an increase of poorly thought out posts that immediately go to psychological issues with little or no factual basis. Or it telegraphs a personal struggle of the poster. Another way to blame a victim. It’s totally disgusting to see how our society is lacking basic self control in comments and compassion in general.
 
To me the statement does not imply he offed himself, just that there could be something going on besides a maintenance issue. I mean it could be the case or it could be improperly placed camera gear as mentioned. It could also be a kind of "stunt" for the story. The ATC audio if there is any and the attention gained for the guy who wrestled the out of control plane for 3 hours.
 
3393RP said:
Perhaps you missed the part of Ed's post that mentioned his personal pain. It would be nice if everyone took notice.

I don't mean to speak for him, but a little compassion would be appreciated.
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Thank you. Just to be clear, I don't mean to use that as some sort of trump card to win internet arguments. That would be lame.

However, I probably know better than anyone here what the family is experiencing. That explains my angry reaction to Tradewinds' statement. I freely admit my reaction is emotional, not rational. I do feel that I should share that experience for those who are here to learn and understand. For those who are just here to argue, let's just say my ignore list is healthy.

I will bow out, but first I will reiterate the main points I have learned from my experience:

A. Bereaved families do not read internet discussion boards. Online speculation on accidents is mostly harmless, and can help other pilots learn.

B. Bereaved families do pay close attention to first hand information, because they are trying desperately to understand what happened. Public parties to an event have a responsibility to be careful what they say and when.
 
OBrien Aviation said:
I take the "may be intentional act of the pilot" to possibly mean this. The pilot may have jammed the controls with a go pro that came loose and stuck in the aileron or something.
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You might be closer to reality than other speculations. Or, as I stated earlier, incorrect trim? A 172 can take a significant effort to handle if the trim is out.
I really doubt they'd be that much of a d'bag to hint at a pilot taking his own life.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Thank you. Just to be clear, I don't mean to use that as some sort of trump card to win internet arguments. That would be lame.

However, I probably know better than anyone here what the family is experiencing. That explains my angry reaction to Tradewinds' statement. I freely admit my reaction is emotional, not rational. I do feel that I should share that experience for those who are here to learn and understand. For those who are just here to argue, let's just say my ignore list is healthy.

I will bow out, but first I will reiterate the main points I have learned from my experience:

A. Bereaved families do not read internet discussion boards. Online speculation on accidents is mostly harmless, and can help other pilots learn.

B. Bereaved families do pay close attention to first hand information, because they are trying desperately to understand what happened. Public parties to an event have a responsibility to be careful what they say and when.
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I hope you don't bow out of this discussion due to others. Your viewpoint is one I value. Every time you bring up your personal experiences, I'm absolutely gutted for you all over again. I do think in general we probably forget about the tragedy that happened in the quest to find out how it happened and the rampant speculation that ensues. I do hope you're right about family not coming here for answers. We don't have them and I'm sure I've said callous things id regret if a someone's friend or family member actually did pop in.

I will say. Initially I didn't catch on the what some think trade winds was alluding to. Maybe (probably) I'm just an idiot and I missed it. But I do think they could and should have ended their statement without the open ended speculation.
 
Ed Haywood said:
B. Bereaved families do pay close attention to first hand information, because they are trying desperately to understand what happened. Public parties to an event have a responsibility to be careful what they say and when.
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Ed, not sure if you followed my posts a couple of months ago regarding the Turbine Bonanza nose-diving into the cornfield on departure from Lancaster Airport. The very experienced non-citizen Doctor pilot (and thankfully no one else) died and we local airport rats tried to piece together what happened. Fog, low ceiling LOC, spacial disorientation, flight control issue, etc?

As speculation WAG's began shrinking, reported life style facts (backed by public records) were officially released to the public and news media, such as:

The Doctor having a medical over-billing conviction from 2021, a three-day old Protection Order from his wife and son forcing him out of the family home due to family violence, a police K-9 searching his hangar the day he died, and over 300 foreign doctors were arrested in our region for being members of a foreign based medical over-billing syndicate based in the middle east, occurring about a week after his death.

It was becoming clear he likely had personal problems and killed himself. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, neither the news media, law enforcement, FAA/NTSB or anyone of any official capacity EVER mentioned suicide. Respect to the families and friends was recognized, and honored.

I presume suicide will likely be determined to be the probable cause when the preliminary NTSB report is finally issued. As it should be. But before then, so far, people around here with the power and ability to publicly speculate about the reasons for this Doctor's tragic ending are all behaving humanly. It's already old news to the public at large that has probably forgotten all about it.
 
So what if wasn't an airplane? Say it was a rented motorcycle.

News story is "man killed after rented Harley loses tire".

As the business owner you know that while that was technically true you also know he was doing burnouts, ramping curbs and then the tires fails while doing 120 and hits a pothole.
Just let the narrative set in that your maintenance practices caused the whole thing or do you say well there is actually more going on here?
 
Dixiebluesky said:
So what if wasn't an airplane? Say it was a rented motorcycle.

News story is "man killed after rented Harley loses tire".

As the business owner you know that while that was technically true you also know he was doing burnouts, ramping curbs and then the tires fails while doing 120 and hits a pothole.
Just let the narrative set in that your maintenance practices caused the whole thing or do you say well there is actually more going on here?
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IMO that situation is typical news. Therefore not expected to be accurate, and barely newsworthy.

I believe any speculations about a possible suicide is something best left up the immediate family, and to be shared with others at their discretion, before any official finding is determined and released.

After a death for any reason, authorities notify (or try to) the "next of kin" first. There's a cultural and very human reason for that policy.
 
Prelim report is out. Nothing enlightening, other than it sure sounds like the kid was trying to survive. Download at bottom of this page:

Loss of control Accident Cessna 172S Skyhawk SP N5203H, Tuesday 26 August 2025

On August 26, 2025, about 1905 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna 172S, N5203H, was destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Los Banos, California. The pilot was fatally injured. T...
asn.flightsafety.org
 
I'd be interesting in hearing transcripts of the radio communications between the people who were trying to help the doomed pilot. There are probably a lot of suggestions made that if followed could eliminate various potential causes and point investigators towards specific areas that need thorough and intensive scrutiny. I.E., a severe down trim issue would be worsened by an increase in airspeed, etc.
 
Nikhiln25 said:
So the preliminary report contains nothing that potentially puts the pilot at fault, as the flight school/rental company seemed to imply in their statement.
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Prelims don't often contain the "smoking gun" evidence. Sometimes, but mostly just an overview of what we already knew.
 
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