Cessna 337 Panel Upgrade

[Cpt_Kirk]

My company is looking to upgrade the avionics in their Cessna 337. It's terribly ancient and really a complete mess although it does contain a Garmin 696 unit mounted in the center console. I was looking to propose a few avionics changes that would benefit everyone, especially me. These are what I would propose (packages):

-ADI & HSI + G430W
-Aspen EFD1000 (1 bar) + G430W
-Garmin G500 + G430W?

Does the G500 need to be coupled with a G430/G530 for GPS navigation or is it be integrated like the G1000 system? I'm extremely familiar with the G1000 system but not much else. The reason I ask is because there isn't much room to mount a 430 in the radio stack, so I'd avoid it if I could.

I'm looking for someone with personal experience with making avionics upgrades and their opinions on each option or their input on what the best bang for the buck would be. It's a sub 75K airplane as of now.

 

[RotorAndWing]

(We'll see how many post this stays on track about avionics before the vitriol starts)

 

[Hawka]

Drool. I love Cessna 337's. They are really cool looking planes and unique.

I'd do the G500. It's like a scaled down G1000 if you're familiar with that.

 

[dukeblue219]

Drool. I love Cessna 337's. They are really cool looking planes and unique.

I'd do the G500. It's like a scaled down G1000 if you're familiar with that.

But yes, he'll need to add the nav/coms with it.

 

[dukeblue219]

Why is there not enough room to add a 430W to the radio stack and remove one of the existing radios? How much stuff do you have in there now that you can't get rid of?

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

 

[Henning]

My company is looking to upgrade the avionics in their Cessna 337. It's terribly ancient and really a complete mess although it does contain a Garmin 696 unit mounted in the center console. I was looking to propose a few avionics changes that would benefit everyone, especially me. These are what I would propose (packages):

-ADI & HSI + G430W
-Aspen EFD1000 (1 bar) + G430W
-Garmin G500 + G430W?

Does the G500 need to be coupled with a G430/G530 for GPS navigation or is it be integrated like the G1000 system? I'm extremely familiar with the G1000 system but not much else. The reason I ask is because there isn't much room to mount a 430 in the radio stack, so I'd avoid it if I could.

I'm looking for someone with personal experience with making avionics upgrades and their opinions on each option or their input on what the best bang for the buck would be. It's a sub 75K airplane as of now.

The 430 works well with the 500, without the display size of the 430 is too small to be a good moving map, but you have the 696 to make up for it. The real advantage to the 500 is getting SVT capabilities.

I would not do a new install with a 430 though, the buttonology on the GNS series is horrible. If the GTN series had been available when I did my panel I would have put in the 750, however with the 500, the 650 would be okay.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

(We'll see how many post this stays on track about avionics before the vitriol starts)

I know you've owned a few. Care to share any tips or advice? I know I need to be familiar with the fuel system (1965 w/ Aux tanks) and leading with the rear engine, etc.

Drool. I love Cessna 337's. They are really cool looking planes and unique.

I'd do the G500. It's like a scaled down G1000 if you're familiar with that.

Any idea on a rough installation cost?

Why is there not enough room to add a 430W to the radio stack and remove one of the existing radios? How much stuff do you have in there now that you can't get rid of?

See the picture above.

The 430 works well with the 500, without the display size of the 430 is too small to be a good moving map, but you have the 696 to make up for it. The real advantage to the 500 is getting SVT capabilities.

I would not do a new install with a 430 though, the buttonology on the GNS series is horrible. If the GTN series had been available when I did my panel I would have put in the 750, however with the 500, the 650 would be okay.

The touch screen seems nice, but I'm not sure about the difference in initial costs. I'm trying to keep it relatively low while enhancing the aircraft's capabilities. The aircraft has no IFR approved GPS navigation system. With the entire industry moving in that direction, it would be silly to omit it intentionally.

Does the G500 have an integrated GPS like the G1000 so I don't have to couple it with a 430/530 or 650/750? That's my main concern with that system. If I have to buy another unit, I might as well propose the Aspen option.

 

[poadeleted21]

My company is looking to upgrade the avionics in their Cessna 337. It's terribly ancient and really a complete mess although it does contain a Garmin 696 unit mounted in the center console. I was looking to propose a few avionics changes that would benefit everyone, especially me. These are what I would propose (packages):

-ADI & HSI + G430W
-Aspen EFD1000 (1 bar) + G430W
-Garmin G500 + G430W?

Does the G500 need to be coupled with a G430/G530 for GPS navigation or is it be integrated like the G1000 system? I'm extremely familiar with the G1000 system but not much else. The reason I ask is because there isn't much room to mount a 430 in the radio stack, so I'd avoid it if I could.

I'm looking for someone with personal experience with making avionics upgrades and their opinions on each option or their input on what the best bang for the buck would be. It's a sub 75K airplane as of now.

I can't imagine a situation where I'd install an HSI or a 430W if I'm working from scratch. Aspen + GTN.

 

[poadeleted21]

(We'll see how many post this stays on track about avionics before the vitriol starts)

It's a 337... The most cost effective option is going to be to sell it to Wentworth and see if you can use the cash as down payment on Bonanza with a couple of Narcos already in the panel.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I can't imagine a situation where I'd install an HSI or a 430W if I'm working from scratch. Aspen + GTN.

I'm new to this and thought that might be a cheaper alternative. Although, I've heard an HSI installation and Aspen installation are very close in numbers.

I like this:

 

[Marauder]

A mechanical HSI and an Aspen PFD are close in price but not in performance. In addition to electronic HSI, you will get dual RMIs with the Aspen, GPSS roll steering for the autopilot, an AI run from an AHRS, a moving map under the HSI and digital tapes for airspeed and altitude. There is also a battery backup to run it in case of electrical failure (the G500 doesn't have this). On the 500, you will get a MFD (moving map) but you will pay for it.

I have a GTN 650 with an Aspen 2000. I have full PFD redundancy including autopilot backup. PM if you have any questions. The process of figuring this stuff out can drive you nuts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

A mechanical HSI and an Aspen PFD are close in price but not in performance. In addition to electronic HSI, you will get dual RMIs with the Aspen, GPSS roll steering for the autopilot, an AI run from an AHRS, a moving map under the HSI and digital tapes for airspeed and altitude. There is also a battery backup to run it in case of electrical failure (the G500 doesn't have this). On the 500, you will get a MFD (moving map) but you will pay for it.

I have a GTN 650 with an Aspen 2000. I have full PFD redundancy including autopilot backup. PM if you have any questions. The process of figuring this stuff out can drive you nuts.

It's already having an affect. Will do. Thanks.

 

[tsts4]

Does the G500 have an integrated GPS like the G1000 so I don't have to couple it with a 430/530 or 650/750? That's my main concern with that system. If I have to buy another unit, I might as well propose the Aspen option.

Nope -- the G500/600 has to have an external navigator.

 

[N747JB]

Having spent a small to medium size fortune on avionics over the last 4 years, I'll throw in my $.02. IF you need an HSI, go with the Aspen, if you have the extra money the G500 is a great unit. Be aware that although both of these units have a lot of features, some of them may not work with your autopilot.
I would certainly buy the GTN series now vs the GNS for GPS navigation. Bigger is better, 750 over 650, 530 over 430, much easier to read and the 750 is an awesome unit!
Installation costs vary, but look at Gulf Coast or any of the big avionics shop websites, they often show installed costs, that gives you a pretty good ballpark to work from.
Aspen is $10-12K?
G500 $20K+
650/750 maybe $14/17K?
Don't forget the audio panel, transponder, and XM weather/radio, while you're at it.
It is very easy to spend more on avionics than the plane is worth.

 

[Henning]

Having spent a small to medium size fortune on avionics over the last 4 years, I'll throw in my $.02. IF you need an HSI, go with the Aspen, if you have the extra money the G500 is a great unit. Be aware that although both of these units have a lot of features, some of them may not work with your autopilot.
I would certainly buy the GTN series now vs the GNS for GPS navigation. Bigger is better, 750 over 650, 530 over 430, much easier to read and the 750 is an awesome unit!
Installation costs vary, but look at Gulf Coast or any of the big avionics shop websites, they often show installed costs, that gives you a pretty good ballpark to work from.
Aspen is $10-12K?
G500 $20K+
650/750 maybe $14/17K?
Don't forget the audio panel, transponder, and XM weather/radio, while you're at it.
It is very easy to spend more on avionics than the plane is worth.

Depends on your concept of 'worth'. What does it cost to buy a factory glass panel plane? I still don't know of one that you can buy for the price of a conversion given same engine times, paint, and interior, and that is if a factory glass alternative s available. Try and find similar mission profile to a 310, closest you come is a G-58 Baron at $1.6MM, 421 and you have to buy a King Air, what does one of those with factory glass cost?

If you want the technology and capability it brings, then converting the panel is the best value on the market. Right now you'll spend a minimum of $40k to do it right.

 

[Henning]

Having spent a small to medium size fortune on avionics over the last 4 years, I'll throw in my $.02. IF you need an HSI, go with the Aspen, if you have the extra money the G500 is a great unit. Be aware that although both of these units have a lot of features, some of them may not work with your autopilot.
I would certainly buy the GTN series now vs the GNS for GPS navigation. Bigger is better, 750 over 650, 530 over 430, much easier to read and the 750 is an awesome unit!
Installation costs vary, but look at Gulf Coast or any of the big avionics shop websites, they often show installed costs, that gives you a pretty good ballpark to work from.
Aspen is $10-12K?
G500 $20K+
650/750 maybe $14/17K?
Don't forget the audio panel, transponder, and XM weather/radio, while you're at it.
It is very easy to spend more on avionics than the plane is worth.

Depends on your concept of 'worth'. What does it cost to buy a factory glass panel plane? I still don't know of one that you can buy for the price of a conversion given same engine times, paint, and interior, and that is if a factory glass alternative s available. Try and find similar mission profile to a 310, closest you come is a G-58 Baron at $1.6MM, 421 and you have to buy a King Air, what does one of those with factory glass cost?

If you want the technology and capability it brings, then converting the panel is the best value on the market. Right now you'll spend a minimum of $40k to do it right.

 

[coloradobluesky]

An IFR GPS, a Nav/Com and an autopilot. Carry and have mounted a VFR GPS (that has an internal battery as a backup). Carry a handheld radio and plug the headset into it (as a backup). All that is needed. I don't see the need for HSI, glass panels etc. A traditional sixpack for gauges. Works really well. Most people carry an IPAD for their charts, and its really nice to figure a way to mount it so you don't have to hold it.

Use the IFR GPS for enroute and usually fly an ILS or VOR approach with the VOR/GS. Backups for pretty much everything. If you lose the IFR GPS box, you still have the Nav/Com and vice versa. You have the VFR GPS and handheld that can run on battery if you have an electrical failure. Vacuum gauges if electrical fails. Its a nice setup.

 

[Jaybird180]

The only local Skymaster I'm aware of, the owner installed one of these about a year ago.

 

[Velocity173]

We've got the 500H on our aircraft. Really good system compared to the old Chelton we had. User friendly, great SA, reliable.

In order to get the full benefit, you gotta get the GDL-69 for XM WX. Make sure you have a GTX-330 for TIS capability as well. SVT with HTAWS is nice to have but I rarely look at it. It has yet to alert me to something that I wasn't aware of. TIS on the other hand, has helped plenty of times.

 

[Marauder]

Having spent a small to medium size fortune on avionics over the last 4 years, I'll throw in my $.02. IF you need an HSI, go with the Aspen, if you have the extra money the G500 is a great unit. Be aware that although both of these units have a lot of features, some of them may not work with your autopilot.

I would certainly buy the GTN series now vs the GNS for GPS navigation. Bigger is better, 750 over 650, 530 over 430, much easier to read and the 750 is an awesome unit!

Installation costs vary, but look at Gulf Coast or any of the big avionics shop websites, they often show installed costs, that gives you a pretty good ballpark to work from.

Aspen is $10-12K?

G500 $20K+

650/750 maybe $14/17K?

Don't forget the audio panel, transponder, and XM weather/radio, while you're at it.

It is very easy to spend more on avionics than the plane is worth.

I agree on the GTN versus GNS comment. The street prices for used GNS units are still pretty high.

I suspect Aspen (Aspen currently has a helo promo) and Garmin will continue to run rebate programs so this will impact the final price. You should be able to get an Aspen PFD installed for $10k or less. List price is around $10k but dealers can offer discounts and I suspect Aspen will run a rebate around Oshkosh. I also found that the Aspen worked really well with my AP (an STEC 60-2). The GPSS capability is awesome. And with the STEC, if the digital Avidyne DFC AP gets approved for my plane, the conversion and integration with my Aspen will be straightforward.

The 650 I had installed came in a little over $10k, again with a dealer discount and a Garmin rebate.

I priced out the G500/600 series. And John is correct. You can expect to pay mid $20k and above depending on whether or not you need the GAD-43 or 43e and what you interface with it.

The bigger screen 750 is nice, but for the $5k difference, I opted for an Aspen MFD.

In addition, both Avidyne's 540 and Bendix King's 770 should be entering the market soon (yeah I know, you have heard that for years).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[poadeleted20]

These are what I would propose (packages):

-ADI & HSI + G430W
-Aspen EFD1000 (1 bar) + G430W
-Garmin G500 + G430W?

Does the G500 need to be coupled with a G430/G530 for GPS navigation or is it be integrated like the G1000 system? I'm extremely familiar with the G1000 system but not much else. The reason I ask is because there isn't much room to mount a 430 in the radio stack, so I'd avoid it if I could.

I'm looking for someone with personal experience with making avionics upgrades and their opinions on each option or their input on what the best bang for the buck would be. It's a sub 75K airplane as of now.

While the G500 is a lovely system (I've trained a couple of folks on it), it is a very expensive option -- like $21K+ installed just for the G500 displays. It's also only a display system, and requires separate radios for all comm, nav, transponder, and audio panel functions. In that regard, it is a lot more like the original Avidyne Entegra display system which was Cirrus' first glass panel system -- big PFD and MFD, but separate radios.

The Aspen is a significantly lower cost option if you only get the single-tube system (PFD but no MFD), but of course then you only get a PFD (i.e., essentially replacing the AI and HSI with some weather and routing information, but not near what a separate MFD gives you). If you go with the dual-tube PFD+MFD option, the price differential gets a lot smaller. If you go that route, I think you'd be better off with a GNS530 or GTN750 to provide more MFD-like display capability.

Either way, there's really no getting away from installing at least a GNS430 (more likely a GTN650 -- about the same price new) to support any of your options, and you're talking about $40-50K worth of avionics work (although you can probably stay under $30K for just a single Aspen PFD plus a GTN650). Whether it's worth it to you to do that with a $75K airplane is a question only you can answer, but these days you'd have a lot more trouble selling a twin like that without more modern avionics than it sounds like you currently have.

I'm also a little surprised by your comment about being limited on room in the stack for a 430. I know the 337's panel, and unless you're hanging onto some obsolete/obsolescent technology (ADF, DME, etc) in addition to a modern WAAS GPS, I don't see why there would be a problem fitting in even a GTN750 to support your modern display system.

 

[N747JB]

Putting $50K into the panel of an airplane that isn't going to be worth much over $50K when you get done isn't a good financial idea. If the object is to fly and enjoy it, that's great. If there is a possibilty of selling it in the next 3-5 years most of the money will be lost.
You can add G1000 to King Airs and I think a few others, it's north of $300K on King Airs, not sure about anything else. Spending $100K on avionics for a 421C does not make it worth $100K more.
As you have discovered adding expensive avionics to an older 310 makes it safer and nicer to fly, but doesn't make it marketable.
Adding $50K in avionics to a older 337 makes even less sense to me, but it ain't my airplane or my money.

Depends on your concept of 'worth'. What does it cost to buy a factory glass panel plane? I still don't know of one that you can buy for the price of a conversion given same engine times, paint, and interior, and that is if a factory glass alternative s available. Try and find similar mission profile to a 310, closest you come is a G-58 Baron at $1.6MM, 421 and you have to buy a King Air, what does one of those with factory glass cost?

If you want the technology and capability it brings, then converting the panel is the best value on the market. Right now you'll spend a minimum of $40k to do it right.

 

[dans2992]

Hey, _someone_ needs to install nice avionics in these older planes so the rest of us can pick them up for a song when they're sold!

 

[Henning]

Putting $50K into the panel of an airplane that isn't going to be worth much over $50K when you get done isn't a good financial idea. If the object is to fly and enjoy it, that's great. If there is a possibilty of selling it in the next 3-5 years most of the money will be lost.
You can add G1000 to King Airs and I think a few others, it's north of $300K on King Airs, not sure about anything else. Spending $100K on avionics for a 421C does not make it worth $100K more.
As you have discovered adding expensive avionics to an older 310 makes it safer and nicer to fly, but doesn't make it marketable.
Adding $50K in avionics to a older 337 makes even less sense to me, but it ain't my airplane or my money.

Well, most people aren't in the aircraft buying and selling business, they use aircraft to fly them places. Like I said in the beginning, what do you value more? If it's money, you shouldn't be near a plane you fly yourself. If it's capability, then the cheapest way to get the capability is retrofit.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Nope -- the G500/600 has to have an external navigator.

That's what I was afraid of. I can ax that idea.

Having spent a small to medium size fortune on avionics over the last 4 years, I'll throw in my $.02. IF you need an HSI, go with the Aspen, if you have the extra money the G500 is a great unit. Be aware that although both of these units have a lot of features, some of them may not work with your autopilot.
I would certainly buy the GTN series now vs the GNS for GPS navigation. Bigger is better, 750 over 650, 530 over 430, much easier to read and the 750 is an awesome unit!
Installation costs vary, but look at Gulf Coast or any of the big avionics shop websites, they often show installed costs, that gives you a pretty good ballpark to work from.
Aspen is $10-12K?
G500 $20K+
650/750 maybe $14/17K?
Don't forget the audio panel, transponder, and XM weather/radio, while you're at it.
It is very easy to spend more on avionics than the plane is worth.

Seeing the installation cost of the G500 and the fact that they would still have to pick up a standalone GPS navigation unit, it looks like I'll stick with the Aspen + GNS or just plain GNS unit.

Depends on your concept of 'worth'. What does it cost to buy a factory glass panel plane? I still don't know of one that you can buy for the price of a conversion given same engine times, paint, and interior, and that is if a factory glass alternative s available. Try and find similar mission profile to a 310, closest you come is a G-58 Baron at $1.6MM, 421 and you have to buy a King Air, what does one of those with factory glass cost?

If you want the technology and capability it brings, then converting the panel is the best value on the market. Right now you'll spend a minimum of $40k to do it right.

My goal is to make the airplane capable of GPS navigation. Right now it has 1 NAV radio and an OBS with no glideslope indicator. I think that severely limits the capability considering it's going to be used for cross country flying to the various job sites. I refuse to fly VFR (unless it's for recreation), especially when operating in areas I'm not familiar with. It's an issue waiting to happen without gratuitous amounts of preflight planning.

An IFR GPS, a Nav/Com and an autopilot. Carry and have mounted a VFR GPS (that has an internal battery as a backup). Carry a handheld radio and plug the headset into it (as a backup). All that is needed. I don't see the need for HSI, glass panels etc. A traditional sixpack for gauges. Works really well. Most people carry an IPAD for their charts, and its really nice to figure a way to mount it so you don't have to hold it.

Use the IFR GPS for enroute and usually fly an ILS or VOR approach with the VOR/GS. Backups for pretty much everything. If you lose the IFR GPS box, you still have the Nav/Com and vice versa. You have the VFR GPS and handheld that can run on battery if you have an electrical failure. Vacuum gauges if electrical fails. Its a nice setup.

I have an iPad with the Stratus II. It's great and all like the 696, but I can't use it for IFR navigation.

The only local Skymaster I'm aware of, the owner installed one of these about a year ago.

Interesting..

We've got the 500H on our aircraft. Really good system compared to the old Chelton we had. User friendly, great SA, reliable.

In order to get the full benefit, you gotta get the GDL-69 for XM WX. Make sure you have a GTX-330 for TIS capability as well. SVT with HTAWS is nice to have but I rarely look at it. It has yet to alert me to something that I wasn't aware of. TIS on the other hand, has helped plenty of times.

It looks like a great piece of equipment, but someone else said it would need a standalone GPS unit and that just increases the cost.

As much as I would like it, I don't think it's an option anymore.

I agree on the GTN versus GNS comment. The street prices for used GNS units are still pretty high.

I suspect Aspen (Aspen currently has a helo promo) and Garmin will continue to run rebate programs so this will impact the final price. You should be able to get an Aspen PFD installed for $10k or less. List price is around $10k but dealers can offer discounts and I suspect Aspen will run a rebate around Oshkosh. I also found that the Aspen worked really well with my AP (an STEC 60-2). The GPSS capability is awesome. And with the STEC, if the digital Avidyne DFC AP gets approved for my plane, the conversion and integration with my Aspen will be straightforward.

The 650 I had installed came in a little over $10k, again with a dealer discount and a Garmin rebate.

I priced out the G500/600 series. And John is correct. You can expect to pay mid $20k and above depending on whether or not you need the GAD-43 or 43e and what you interface with it.

The bigger screen 750 is nice, but for the $5k difference, I opted for an Aspen MFD.

In addition, both Avidyne's 540 and Bendix King's 770 should be entering the market soon (yeah I know, you have heard that for years).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'll keep an eye on those discounts. I don't think they would mind saving some money.

While the G500 is a lovely system (I've trained a couple of folks on it), it is a very expensive option -- like $21K+ installed just for the G500 displays. It's also only a display system, and requires separate radios for all comm, nav, transponder, and audio panel functions. In that regard, it is a lot more like the original Avidyne Entegra display system which was Cirrus' first glass panel system -- big PFD and MFD, but separate radios.

The Aspen is a significantly lower cost option if you only get the single-tube system (PFD but no MFD), but of course then you only get a PFD (i.e., essentially replacing the AI and HSI with some weather and routing information, but not near what a separate MFD gives you). If you go with the dual-tube PFD+MFD option, the price differential gets a lot smaller. If you go that route, I think you'd be better off with a GNS530 or GTN750 to provide more MFD-like display capability.

Either way, there's really no getting away from installing at least a GNS430 (more likely a GTN650 -- about the same price new) to support any of your options, and you're talking about $40-50K worth of avionics work (although you can probably stay under $30K for just a single Aspen PFD plus a GTN650). Whether it's worth it to you to do that with a $75K airplane is a question only you can answer, but these days you'd have a lot more trouble selling a twin like that without more modern avionics than it sounds like you currently have.

I'm also a little surprised by your comment about being limited on room in the stack for a 430. I know the 337's panel, and unless you're hanging onto some obsolete/obsolescent technology (ADF, DME, etc) in addition to a modern WAAS GPS, I don't see why there would be a problem fitting in even a GTN750 to support your modern display system.

Thanks for the input. See the picture below. The 696 takes up quite a bit of room. They could rework the entire panel but that would be costly. You can see the TPX has been relocated to the bottom right hand of the panel on the passenger's side.

Putting $50K into the panel of an airplane that isn't going to be worth much over $50K when you get done isn't a good financial idea. If the object is to fly and enjoy it, that's great. If there is a possibilty of selling it in the next 3-5 years most of the money will be lost.
You can add G1000 to King Airs and I think a few others, it's north of $300K on King Airs, not sure about anything else. Spending $100K on avionics for a 421C does not make it worth $100K more.
As you have discovered adding expensive avionics to an older 310 makes it safer and nicer to fly, but doesn't make it marketable.
Adding $50K in avionics to a older 337 makes even less sense to me, but it ain't my airplane or my money.

I don't want them to go crazy, I just want a panel that is capable in today's world and is cost-effective.

Hey, _someone_ needs to install nice avionics in these older planes so the rest of us can pick them up for a song when they're sold!

Yeah, I wish that was the case when we bought it.

Well, most people aren't in the aircraft buying and selling business, they use aircraft to fly them places. Like I said in the beginning, what do you value more? If it's money, you shouldn't be near a plane you fly yourself. If it's capability, then the cheapest way to get the capability is retrofit.

I value the capability more and I'm sure the owners do too. I don't want to have to divert because I can't shoot the RNAV approach into an airport that is below VFR mins. There are options in that case but why make it harder than it has to be.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for the input. See the picture below. The 696 takes up quite a bit of room. They could rework the entire panel but that would be costly. You can see the TPX has been relocated to the bottom right hand of the panel on the passenger's side.

I assumed that if you install the sort of equipment about which you are speaking, the 696 would go away. I can't imagine why you'd keep it there in that case, and I think that would create enough space for even a 750.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I assumed that if you install the sort of equipment about which you are speaking, the 696 would go away. I can't imagine why you'd keep it there in that case, and I think that would create enough space for even a 750.

If I could convince them to get rid of it, it would make life a lot easier. I'd very much like a 750 in its place.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I could convince them to get rid of it, it would make life a lot easier. I'd very much like a 750 in its place.

If they are insisting on keeping the 696, I don't see the point of spending a pile of money on an MFD. But looking more closely, I see only one nav/comm -- the KX155. Are you really flying that plane seriously IFR with only one nav/comm? Is your plan to just replace the 155 with a 430/650? I'm just not seeing the point of giving up all that panel space to an uncertified device in an airplane which one would expect to be used for serious IFR transportation.

 

[coloradobluesky]

What you NEED in today's world (I am assuming you will fly IFR), is IFR GPS for enroute, and VOR/GS for approaches and a radio.

Then you need to consider "backup" (second GPS, second radio, second VOR/GS, attitude instruments that will work in the event of an electrical failure). Then you need to consider an autopilot. Even just a wing leveler will suffice (better than nothing, takes the workload off so you can do something else).

The whole glass panel thing is just style. What does a glass panel do that a traditional six pack doesn't?

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

If they are insisting on keeping the 696, I don't see the point of spending a pile of money on an MFD. But looking more closely, I see only one nav/comm -- the KX155. Are you really flying that plane seriously IFR with only one nav/comm? Is your plan to just replace the 155 with a 430/650? I'm just not seeing the point of giving up all that panel space to an uncertified device in an airplane which one would expect to be used for serious IFR transportation.

No, I don't plan on flying serious IFR with the panel as it is now. That would be asking for trouble.

My goal is to get them to change the panel how in a way that would keep the costs relatively low, while bringing the airplane into the 21st century. I'd like to keep the 696, but would want it replaced for something that would have more benefit - a GNS system.

The 696 was in the airplane when it was purchased which is why it's there now. They like VFR ops, I don't. They want to upgrade the panel, I want it to benefit everyone.

What you NEED in today's world (I am assuming you will fly IFR), is IFR GPS for enroute, and VOR/GS for approaches and a radio.

Then you need to consider "backup" (second GPS, second radio, second VOR/GS, attitude instruments that will work in the event of an electrical failure). Then you need to consider an autopilot. Even just a wing leveler will suffice (better than nothing, takes the workload off so you can do something else).

The whole glass panel thing is just style. What does a glass panel do that a traditional six pack doesn't?

That's what I'm trying to get to.

 

[Marauder]

What you NEED in today's world (I am assuming you will fly IFR), is IFR GPS for enroute, and VOR/GS for approaches and a radio.

Then you need to consider "backup" (second GPS, second radio, second VOR/GS, attitude instruments that will work in the event of an electrical failure). Then you need to consider an autopilot. Even just a wing leveler will suffice (better than nothing, takes the workload off so you can do something else).

The whole glass panel thing is just style. What does a glass panel do that a traditional six pack doesn't?

I flew IFR for 21 years using just steam gauges. Other than the situational awareness glass gives you, there can be a redundancy component. That is what sold me on the Aspens. Electric goes out, I have a battery backup on both the PFD and MFD. The MFD can be converted to work as the PFD with full data cross loads if the PFD fails. And each can be turned off to double the life of the battery coverage. The GPS dies, the flight plan is stored in the glass.

I used to worry about my vacuum AI rolling over -- you lose one while IMC, you remember it. Now the vacuum AI is the backup.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[coloradobluesky]

The key is to have some redundancy and be able to continue to fly in the clouds if you have an electrical failure. There are several ways of doing this.

But there is NO inexpensive way. This stuff is EXPENSIVE! Even just an IFR GPS/Com, a Nav/Com and an autopilot is gonna set you back like 20k or so? Maybe more.

Frankly, its usually cheaper to sell the plane and buy one with the avionics you want.

But....there's nothing like a good upgrading project!

 

[poadeleted20]

My goal is to get them to change the panel how in a way that would keep the costs relatively low, while bringing the airplane into the 21st century.

I don't think that's an achievable goal as long as they insist on keeping the 696 in the panel. The closest you could come would be to replace the KX155 with a used GNS430, but I wouldn't be comfortable flying in any kind of weather with only one nav/comm. If you really want to "bring the plane into the 21st century" and have a capable IFR panel, the 696 has to go, and it's going to cost you around $25K to add a 430 or 650 plus a single Aspen PFD to the panel while keeping the KX155 as your backup nav/comm.

And if they really want to keep the 696 in the airplane, you can always just keep it loose or put it on a yoke mount.

 

[N747JB]

I think I would look at putting a 650/430W in the panel to supplement the KX155. As much as I like glass, I don't think it's worth the investment/cost to put it in an older 337, just my $.02.
I have flown IFR with a single nav/com and ADF, my second nav/com had quit the team, but it was one or two trips and it isn't a good feeling to be in the clouds with little or no back up. I was also much younger and far more bullet proof!

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I think I would look at putting a 650/430W in the panel to supplement the KX155. As much as I like glass, I don't think it's worth the investment/cost to put it in an older 337, just my $.02.
I have flown IFR with a single nav/com and ADF, my second nav/com had quit the team, but it was one or two trips and it isn't a good feeling to be in the clouds with little or no back up. I was also much younger and far more bullet proof!

There were NDB's close enough to navigate between? Amazing. I still have to fly a real NDB approach one of these days before they all go kaput.

There is actually 2 COMMs and 1 NAV. Above the KX155 is a Garmin GTR 225.

It's a waste of space.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is actually 2 COMMs and 1 NAV. Above the KX155 is a Garmin GTR 225.

In that case, you might consider trading the KX-155 in on a 430/650 and keeping the GTR225 as backup comm. With the 696 available in the cockpit, plus the 225 for comm, getting on the ground safely after a failure of the primary comm/nav/GPS unit shouldn't be much of a challenge unless you're flying around with nothing about 300-1/2 or so within fuel range.

BTW, unless you're a glutton for punishment, you really don't have to try flying an NDB approach using only an ADF. :wink2:

 

[N747JB]

No, I didn't use the ADF for long range navigation, I was just saying that's all I had to work with when my #2 radio was out.
This was in the pre-GPS days, when dinosaurs roamed the earth!

There were NDB's close enough to navigate between? Amazing. I still have to fly a real NDB approach one of these days before they all go kaput.

There is actually 2 COMMs and 1 NAV. Above the KX155 is a Garmin GTR 225.

It's a waste of space.