Certitifying IFR

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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If an SEL aircraft has all of the needed equipment to be IFR buy is not currently certified as such, who do I seek out to get it certified? What docs do I need to ask for and retain? What cost should I expect?
 
AggieMike88 said:
If an SEL aircraft has all of the needed equipment to be IFR buy is not currently certified as such, who do I seek out to get it certified? What docs do I need to ask for and retain? What cost should I expect?
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As far as I know, it is the responsibility of the aircraft manufacture to certify the aircraft for IMC operations upon the initial type certification with the FAA. A good example of this is the Diamond DA-20. You can equip the aircraft with full instrumentation and avionics, receive IFR training and take your check ride but you cannot legally fly in IMC as Diamond never certified the aircraft accordingly.

If this has changed in the last few years, I stand corrected.
 
Lucky said:
As far as I know, it is the responsibility of the aircraft manufacture to certify the aircraft for IMC operations upon the initial type certification with the FAA. A good example of this is the Diamond DA-20. You can equip the aircraft with full instrumentation and avionics, receive IFR training and take your check ride but you cannot legally fly in IMC as Diamond never certified the aircraft accordingly.

If this has changed in the last few years, I stand corrected.
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I thought once you put in the proper equipment you can get it ifr certified. See I learned something here today.
 
marcoseddi said:
I thought once you put in the proper equipment you can get it ifr certified. See I learned something here today.
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someone with more expertise will chime in, but there is something more to it. For examples, the composite planes are supposed to have some type of meshing for lightning strikes.
 
It depends what you mean by "certified." Older aircraft only need to be suitably equipped and inspected. Newer aircraft have in their certification or operating limitations specific statements as to Day/Night VFR/IFR operation. If an aircraft has such a VFR-only restriction, there's NOTHING you're going to do to make it IFR-legal. Some have specific equipment lists that are needed to be IFR. This also goes for certain appliances the most common of which is an IFR GPS. It must be installed as documented under the STC for it (includes a flight test among other things).

So the rules are:
1. First the aircraft has to meet any limitations for IFR as specified in the Type Certificate/Operating Limitations (frequently the AFM) for the aircraft and it's installed equipment.
2. You must meet 91.205(d).
3. You must meet the various inspection requirements: Altimeter, static system, altitude reporting, VOR...
 
The aircraft recently came onto the market, and has been added to my potential purchase list. Aircraft is a 1976 Archer, so it's original type certificate should cover being IFR from the factory. I have an email to the seller for more info.

Photo of panel (see below) leads me to believe the required equipment is in place. But I need to compare to the list of required items from the FAR's.

I have not yet reviewed the logs to see when the last IFR inspection occurred. I'm hoping the seller was a VFR pilot and chose not to renew versus there being a needed and expensive fix to something that is required.

Thanks for the reference to 91.205(d). I'll read up on that.
 

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Also check out 91.411 and 91.413, transponder and VOR checks need to be done.

I think the Archer is certified for operation under IFR, but you need these checks to be legal to operate.
 
What if you're talking about converting an experimental aircraft from VFR to IFR?
 
91.205(d) explains what equipment is required for IFR flight.

As has also been mentioned, the aircraft type certificate has something to say about it also. Since the aircraft in question is a PA28-180 or 181, we know that they can in fact be certified for IFR.

Now, what does certified actually mean? Well, the required equipment must be installed, and by the pictures provided, it certainly looks like the required equipment is present. The next thing required is the "inspections" that are required. You need a pitot/static system check and a transponder check done in the last 24 months as well as the VOR checks within the last 30 days.

If you have those things, you are good to go.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Now, what does certified actually mean? Well, the required equipment must be installed, and by the pictures provided, it certainly looks like the required equipment is present. The next thing required is the "inspections" that are required. You need a pitot/static system check and a transponder check done in the last 24 months as well as the VOR checks within the last 30 days.

If you have those things, you are good to go.
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Thanks Greg. If I'm reading what you say correctly, If the logs say the pitot/static is current, and I were to conduct a proper VOR check per 91.171, then the aircraft is legal for IFR and I'm good to go in this regard?

If pitot/static inspection is not currently, is the aircraft still VFR legal? (I did a keyword search of the FARs for and didn't find anything about the inspection of this system)
 
There's no separate aircraft certification process for IFR. As long as you are complying with the operating limitations in the TC/POH for IFR, then that is out of the way. It's going to be a superset of 91.205(d) anyhow.

There's no such thing as a "pitot" check.
91.411 mandates IFR use have a static system, altimeter, altitude reporting system check every 24 months and whenever the static system is opened for some reason or other related maintenance.

If the above check just expires, you are free to fly VFR. If the above check FAILS, then it would depend on what the issue is, but most likely some component of your system is NOT airworthy and hence VFR is probably ill-advised as well. If it's just the encoder, you might suffice in places where mode C is not required.

91.413 requires transponder checks IFR or VFR.

The VOR check is only if you intend to use VORs for IFR flight, but the check (especially if you can do the dual VOR version of the check) is so simple, there's no reason why you wouldn't just have one.

--

Getting back to those who asked about experimentals, again what I stated holds. You need to check your operating limitations. The FAA sample operating limitations which are the most common ones actually issued say "Restricted to VFR unless equipped according to 91.205(d)."
 
If it's the cherokee, you're good. Now, you need the every-2-year test for transponder, altimeter, encoder & static system. Depending where you take it, anywhere from $200 to $500. Takes about 2-3 hours.
 
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It pays to shop around for static & transponder checks BTW. I've been quoted from $75 to $425.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The aircraft recently came onto the market, and has been added to my potential purchase list. Aircraft is a 1976 Archer, so it's original type certificate should cover being IFR from the factory.
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It does. See Section 2.8 in the POH.
The airplane is approved for the following operations when equipped in accordance with FAR 91 or FAR
135.
(a) Day V.F.R.
(b) Night V.F.R.
(c) Day I.F.R.
(d) Night I.F.R.​
(e) Non Icing
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Photo of panel (see below) leads me to believe the required equipment is in place. But I need to compare to the list of required items from the FAR's.
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Not sure whether that Northstar GPS (or is it a LORAN?) is still supported or not for IFR use -- better check on that. Other than that, nothing in the panel suggests the aircraft cannot be operated IFR.

I have not yet reviewed the logs to see when the last IFR inspection occurred. I'm hoping the seller was a VFR pilot and chose not to renew versus there being a needed and expensive fix to something that is required.
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Make sure you have that as part of the conditions of sale -- either it passes a 91.411/413 check, or the cost of repairs comes off the top of a selling price based on it being OK.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Thanks Greg. If I'm reading what you say correctly, If the logs say the pitot/static is current, and I were to conduct a proper VOR check per 91.171, then the aircraft is legal for IFR and I'm good to go in this regard?
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Probably yes.

If pitot/static inspection is not currently, is the aircraft still VFR legal? (I did a keyword search of the FARs for and didn't find anything about the inspection of this system)
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First, there's no such thing as a "pitot/static" inspection. The inspection required by 91.411 for IFR operation covers the altimeter and static system; the pitot system is not checked at all. Second, you might also need the 91.413 transponder and altitude reporting system check, although that's a general requirement for any transponder use, not just IFR operation.
 
bnt83 said:
It pays to shop around for static & transponder checks BTW. I've been quoted from $75 to $425.
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I've never seen the 91.411/413 checks quoted less than about $200, although in high price areas I can imagine it being as high as $425. Typical price is about $250 for both together. The problems occur when it fails the tests, as chasing down a static leak can cost hundreds, a new altimeter the same, and a new transponder thousands.
 
Thanks Ron L.

I think the Northstar is a GPS. The face looks like the same as the one in Metro Flyers Club Skylane, 55WB. If it is the same, then I believe it will be VFR only.

And good tips on adding "must pass a 91.411/413 check, or the cost of repairs comes off the top of a selling price" to the sale contract.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If an SEL aircraft has all of the needed equipment to be IFR buy is not currently certified as such, who do I seek out to get it certified? What docs do I need to ask for and retain? What cost should I expect?
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There is no such endorsement in a logbook as "IFR Certified". There are certain inspection requirements (altimeter, static, transponder, VOR) but nothing called "IFR certified".

However, if you want one, I'll do it for $1,000 cash on the barrelhead, but it will mean absolutely nothing :goofy:
 
Ron Levy said:
Make sure you have that as part of the conditions of sale -- either it passes a 91.411/413 check, or the cost of repairs comes off the top of a selling price based on it being OK.
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That is purely a matter between buyer and seller. It is negotiated, not cast in stone. If the seller says "no", then the airplane is either worth it withOUT the checks or not, your choice.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
That is purely a matter between buyer and seller. It is negotiated, not cast in stone. If the seller says "no", then the airplane is either worth it withOUT the checks or not, your choice.
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Agreed. But I've seen airplane that have gone years without the checks costing several thousand to get through the checks, and that's not a surprise I want after purchase. It's not the price of the checks themselves (a known quantity I can easily build into my offering price) which concerns me, it's the potential for unpredictably expensive repairs, and given that it's largely a buyer's market right now, I would require that as a condition of sale or I'd find another plane unless the seller was willing to accept a couple of thousand less for the plane as is.
 
Yeah, I got them to throw in the annual and IFR certs in my purchase price.

I can tell you real UNKIND things about certain DC area avionics shops and their IFR checks.

I recently had one done at a little sleepy field in NC (Gilliam-McConnell). The on-field barbecue shack was closed, so I actually sat there with the tech as he showed me exactly each step of the process for the altimeter, encoder, static leakdown tests, and the mode S transponder check.

Very englightening.
 
flyingron said:
so I actually sat there with the tech as he showed me exactly each step of the process for the altimeter, encoder, static leakdown tests, and the mode S transponder check.

Very englightening.
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I would like to observe the process. I'm all for more education on the systems I'm depending on for save operation.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've never seen the 91.411/413 checks quoted less than about $200, although in high price areas I can imagine it being as high as $425. Typical price is about $250 for both together. The problems occur when it fails the tests, as chasing down a static leak can cost hundreds, a new altimeter the same, and a new transponder thousands.
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exactly. my $225 check turned out to be over $700 with overhauled altimeter and additional time tweaking the transponder.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I would like to observe the process. I'm all for more education on the systems I'm depending on for save operation.
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I sat in on mine for a few minutes, and I learned a few things. There is so much stuff the average pilot takes for granted when flying a plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
...as chasing down a static leak can cost hundreds...
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But can be pre-checked to see if there is anything gross going to happen with a two-bit suction cup and a small hypodermic needle/syringe from the feed supply store. Maybe somebody should write that procedure up for a national homebuilt aircraft magazine :goofy:
I don't keep the leakdown limits off the top of my head. Anybody know what the limits are? I know you can use the altimeter as the sensor, and it is so many feet in so many minutes leak allowed but I really can't remember the number(s).

Same trick works for the transponder altitude encoder if you've got the little gray-code test box to read it out.

.
.

Jim
 
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Or your transponder or traffic box will also report your encoder out...
 
weirdjim said:
But can be pre-checked to see if there is anything gross going to happen with a two-bit suction cup and a small hypodermic needle/syringe from the feed supply store. Maybe somebody should write that procedure up for a national homebuilt aircraft magazine
...
Same trick works for the transponder altitude encoder if you've got the little gray-code test box to read it out.
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For $250, you can find out for sure before buying the plane. If the plane was out of 91.411/413 currency, I think I might just make that part of my pre-purchase inspection, and make passing the test a condition in the sales contract (or seller pays for the necessary repairs).
 
weirdjim said:
But can be pre-checked to see if there is anything gross going to happen with a two-bit suction cup and a small hypodermic needle/syringe from the feed supply store. Maybe somebody should write that procedure up for a national homebuilt aircraft magazine :goofy:
I don't keep the leakdown limits off the top of my head. Anybody know what the limits are? I know you can use the altimeter as the sensor, and it is so many feet in so many minutes leak allowed but I really can't remember the number(s).

Less than 100' in 1 minute.

Same trick works for the transponder altitude encoder if you've got the little gray-code test box to read it out.

.
.

Jim
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Chris
 
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