CBP can confiscate or search laptops

gismo

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iGismo
While I was digging through some info on the WikiLeaks source for the diplomatic cable stuff I came across an unrelated story that caught my attention. It was about a man who had his laptop seized by US customs who then attempted to search it's contents. He also contends that they may have planted malware although it appears that's only his suspicion. Further into the article I found a statement from someone in CBP indicating that they have done this to "only" about 1000 citizens.

I'm having a hard time seeing how such a search could be considered reasonable but I guess the CBP can search anything you're carrying even if there's no possibility that the contents include nothing but information.

Does anyone know if CBP is allowed to read any printed document you're carrying as well?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/hacker-border-search
 
gismo said:
While I was digging through some info on the WikiLeaks source for the diplomatic cable stuff I came across an unrelated story that caught my attention. It was about a man who had his laptop seized by US customs who then attempted to search it's contents. He also contends that they may have planted malware although it appears that's only his suspicion. Further into the article I found a statement from someone in CBP indicating that they have done this to "only" about 1000 citizens.

I'm having a hard time seeing how such a search could be considered reasonable but I guess the CBP can search anything you're carrying even if there's no possibility that the contents include nothing but information.

Does anyone know if CBP is allowed to read any printed document you're carrying as well?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/hacker-border-search
Click to expand...
This policy has been in effect for several years now. It started soon after 911.

An older thread on the topic: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19240&
 
I remember hearing about an incident several years ago, similar to this. My recollection - Someone was crossing the border with a laptop. On that laptop was an encrypted drive. Customs or some government agency wanted to see what was on that drive. The owner would not provide the key to access it, so it was confiscated. I am pretty sure it was returned sometime later.
 
What makes CBP so dangerous is that they managed to combine powers from several different agencies into one which they can now wield at will.

If they dont find a reason to snoop around in your stuff under USC Title 8 (border protection and immigration), they still have 19 (tariffs) or 21 (drugs) to choose from :wink2:. And dont you want to eradicate child pornography, 'its all for the children you know'....... You dont like children ?
 
gismo said:
While I was digging through some info on the WikiLeaks source for the diplomatic cable stuff I came across an unrelated story that caught my attention. It was about a man who had his laptop seized by US customs who then attempted to search it's contents. He also contends that they may have planted malware although it appears that's only his suspicion. Further into the article I found a statement from someone in CBP indicating that they have done this to "only" about 1000 citizens.

I'm having a hard time seeing how such a search could be considered reasonable but I guess the CBP can search anything you're carrying even if there's no possibility that the contents include nothing but information.

Does anyone know if CBP is allowed to read any printed document you're carrying as well?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/hacker-border-search
Click to expand...

Without reading the article, it sounds like this happened at a customs or border checkpoint - that is, while someone was trying to get into the country.

Citizen or not, it's long-standing law that the 4th Amendment is severely abrogated, to the point that it might as well not exist, at customs/border checkpoints. In other words, intrusion doesn't have to be "reasonable" to avoid having a warrant....

Like I wrote yesterday, the 4th Amendment is full of holes. I suppose it could be described as, in a tie, the gov't is the runner....
 
Yep,

And as a result of this most companies put full disk encryption on the laptops now for both domestic and overseas travel. My company instructs me to be cooperative, NOT unlock the hard disk, and let them seize the laptop if they wish.
 
TMetzinger said:
Yep,

And as a result of this most companies put full disk encryption on the laptops now for both domestic and overseas travel. My company instructs me to be cooperative, NOT unlock the hard disk, and let them seize the laptop if they wish.
Click to expand...

$50 says that, if this practice becomes widespread, the gov't starts to threaten some kind of obstruction charge.

[read that comment as dripping with contempt - and not for you or your company]
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
$50 says that, if this practice becomes widespread, the gov't starts to threaten some kind of obstruction charge.

[read that comment as dripping with contempt - and not for you or your company]
Click to expand...

oooh, the clipper/capstone chip controversy all over again :thumbsup:
 
I see both sides. But if the Gov't takes the info away from me then it's no longer a threat, and they can negotiate with the owner (my employer) for access to it.
 
TMetzinger said:
Yep,

And as a result of this most companies put full disk encryption on the laptops now for both domestic and overseas travel. My company instructs me to be cooperative, NOT unlock the hard disk, and let them seize the laptop if they wish.
Click to expand...

Even with the full disk encryption our company prohibits us from taking laptops out of the US (except for special "clean" laptops they provide). Even blackberries require prior permission & a bunch of forms. Company policy is that we cooperate if law enforcement (including CBP) demands that we unlock the hard disk or blackberry, but immediately notify corporate security. Classified document couriers are a different story.

This is a great use for Ironkey flash drives. They self-destruct after a preset number of incorrect attempts to enter the unlock code.
 
Why would anybody carry data across a border?. Use and encrypted upload to server, down load it from over there.

Just crazy.
 
It may be on that old thread, but there was one woman who had her personal laptop taken by customs and not returned for over a year.

There was another where Canada customs did a search of the American's laptop looking for his inevitable pron pictures.

In Britain they can compel you to type in the password upon penalty of imprisonment.
 
bbchien said:
Why would anybody carry data across a border?. Use and encrypted upload to server, down load it from over there.

Just crazy.
Click to expand...

I take photographs when traveling. In raw mode w/jpeg copy, I get about 200 - 250 photos on an 8 GB card.

I often fill one, if not two, cards while traveling.

It is simply not practical to send them back on an encrypted link (even the jpeg compressed versions can add up very fast). I have sent back low resolution copies with mixed success, but generally I have them on an encrypted computer and a thumb drive as backup. Hotel links can be as slow as 256 kb/sec, prepaid 3G in Europe rivals 3G in the US - but generally prepaid 3G limits you to 1-2 GB in a 2 week period.

Travelers from our company do exactly what you suggest - get stuff on an encrypted link & delete when done.
 
bbchien said:
Why would anybody carry data across a border?. Use and encrypted upload to server, down load it from over there.

Just crazy.
Click to expand...
You never travel internationally with your laptop?

My work one is loaded with all kinds of corporate classified proprietary data. I would run a greater risk having to download those files on a hotel WLAN than if I carried them on the hard drive.
 
I frequently carry a laptop across the border but it has no confidential company information on it because I don't have access to any, and I don't worry about my own personal information. I'm sure it is all out there in some form already.
 
wsuffa said:
Even with the full disk encryption our company prohibits us from taking laptops out of the US (except for special "clean" laptops they provide). Even blackberries require prior permission & a bunch of forms. Company policy is that we cooperate if law enforcement (including CBP) demands that we unlock the hard disk or blackberry, but immediately notify corporate security. Classified document couriers are a different story.

This is a great use for Ironkey flash drives. They self-destruct after a preset number of incorrect attempts to enter the unlock code.
Click to expand...
Similar for us for international travel. In many cases taking the laptop with the encryption software on it is a violation of export rules.
 
Your Constitutional rights now end at the border, which by now can be defined as just about anywhere in the CONUS. Another wonderful casualty of the War on Drugs.
 
ScottM said:
You never travel internationally with your laptop?

My work one is loaded with all kinds of corporate classified proprietary data. I would run a greater risk having to download those files on a hotel WLAN than if I carried them on the hard drive.
Click to expand...

Very little company classified stuff on mine, but I don't work with it that much. Now, stuff related in international standards development and professional society work? Boatloads. Company policy is to cooperate and then notify security. No problem. And I've never been asked, either.
 
ScottM said:
My work one is loaded with all kinds of corporate classified proprietary data. I would run a greater risk having to download those files on a hotel WLAN than if I carried them on the hard drive.
Click to expand...

Classified data (as in US Gov't classified), or just proprietary?

If you have a proper VPN setup, you can pretty much ignore the security of the network you are on -- as long as you get bits, you can get your data, and nobody else can sniff it.

Chris
 
TMetzinger said:
Similar for us for international travel. In many cases taking the laptop with the encryption software on it is a violation of export rules.
Click to expand...

Yep. And some of the tech data that some of our folks use is also subject to various export laws. Add in the risk that a furrin' government or industrial spy might be able to access our network and it becomes all but impossible to travel with company electronics and/or data. Even the blackberry is vulnerable to concerns about export issues.
 
colohan said:
Classified data (as in US Gov't classified), or just proprietary?
Click to expand...
I clearly used said corporate classified proprietary data.

colohan said:
If you have a proper VPN setup, you can pretty much ignore the security of the network you are on -- as long as you get bits, you can get your data, and nobody else can sniff it.

Chris
Click to expand...
VPN is very breakable. Our issue and one that has been documented, is the industrial espionage that happens in the PRC. The government of China is behind many of the break-ins of corporate data. The PLA actually owns business that are in direct competition with our core business. We have been instructed that if when entering China if border security requests to take the laptop to refuse and if they deny entry then catch the next flight home. Even if that means having to spend lots of bucks.
 
A proper VPN is quite secure - the best have dedicated clients with smart-card two-factor authentication and the initial crypto takes place in the smart-card chip. Yes, Governments can probably break the AES encryption given sufficient time, but with frequent key changes you can make the computational cost of the decrypt very high.
 
TMetzinger said:
A proper VPN is quite secure - the best have dedicated clients with smart-card two-factor authentication and the initial crypto takes place in the smart-card chip. Yes, Governments can probably break the AES encryption given sufficient time, but with frequent key changes you can make the computational cost of the decrypt very high.
Click to expand...
It can take an intel agency under a minute to break a VPN key.
 
ScottM said:
It can take an intel agency under a minute to break a VPN key.
Click to expand...
if it's a poorly implemented SSL-based VPN, yes, due to some constraints in the SSL protocol

But the standard most companies use for Secure VPN - client-based IPSEC tunnels with 2048-bit public keys and AES-256 for the symmetric side - is EXACTLY the same standard US government agencies use for protecting Sensitive But Unclassified data as it traverses public networks.

I'm quite sure that the NSA can break this, eventually. I'm also sure it isn't a matter of minutes. Care to share your source?
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm quite sure that the NSA can break this, eventually. I'm also sure it isn't a matter of minutes. Care to share your source?
Click to expand...
When we were designing the AES algorithm NSA people wee sitting in the room taking notes. I was there when we selected Rijdeal, I am more than sure.
 
ScottM said:
When we were designing the AES algorithm NSA people wee sitting in the room taking notes. I was there when we selected Rijdeal, I am more than sure.
Click to expand...

You work for NIST?

But even so - then what you mean is that NSA can break AES - not that ANY intel agency can do so. Or are you really saying that the US Government is exposing all the SBU (taxpayer info, and all sorts of other stuff) to foreign intelligence?
 
TMetzinger said:
You work for NIST?

But even so - then what you mean is that NSA can break AES - not that ANY intel agency can do so. Or are you really saying that the US Government is exposing all the SBU (taxpayer info, and all sorts of other stuff) to foreign intelligence?
Click to expand...
I am saying that the weaknesses of AES are known and that even if someone has to use brute force intel agencies have the computing power to do it. The Chinese government is a well known group of people who engage in industrial espionage. Ask Cisco, ask Motorola, look at the law suits that are out there. The companies involved in those suits on the Chinese side are owned by the People's Liberation Army.

The type of cryptanalysis required to break Rijndael is different than what has been used before. The algebraic attack modes are something that requires computing power that really only large government intel organizations have access too. BTW I am pretty sure that it takes about 12 seconds to brute force break a 32 bit code key these days in one of these types of systems. I recall reading that in a crypto journal not too long ago. In the past few years some new attack methodologies have been proposed and developed. See XLS attack methodologies for more information.

I find it interesting that NSA endorses the use of Rijndael but does not use it itself. While the AES algorithm is being used to protect secret and top secret information it is not being used for any SCI classified products to the best of my knowledge. That is still being encrypted with other stronger methods including private network transmissions.
 
I think you are underestimating this number. I Heard the number was 6,000+ laptops were seized. And be warned, you may never get your computer back, and they do this to both citizens and non-citizens.

I can tell you that CBP has an open hand. One time I was on an empty MX Ferry flight flying a US Registered Airplane. Me and the other pilot are both US Citizens. We got detained in Bangor Maine for 6 hours + for no reason.

gismo said:
While I was digging through some info on the WikiLeaks source for the diplomatic cable stuff I came across an unrelated story that caught my attention. It was about a man who had his laptop seized by US customs who then attempted to search it's contents. He also contends that they may have planted malware although it appears that's only his suspicion. Further into the article I found a statement from someone in CBP indicating that they have done this to "only" about 1000 citizens.

I'm having a hard time seeing how such a search could be considered reasonable but I guess the CBP can search anything you're carrying even if there's no possibility that the contents include nothing but information.

Does anyone know if CBP is allowed to read any printed document you're carrying as well?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/hacker-border-search
Click to expand...
 
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