Carbon fiber/composite and the environment

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Tony R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Can a carbon fiber or composite airplane be stored outside?

Connecticut has a hangar shortage. My CFI is out of KHFD so that is where I want to keep the aircraft. I'm on a wait-list so it could be years.

Please don't turn this into an student pilot shouldn't own an airplane debate. I'm trying to see if a non metal plane is ok on the ramp for a couple of years.
 
Tony R said:
Can a carbon fiber or composite airplane be stored outside?

Connecticut has a hangar shortage. My CFI is out of KHFD so that is where I want to keep the aircraft. I'm on a wait-list so it could be years.

Please don't turn this into an student pilot shouldn't own an airplane debate. I'm trying to see if a non metal plane is ok on the ramp for a couple of years.
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Yep. You'll see Cirrus and Diamond airplanes on ramps all the time. Boeing 787's aren't exactly hangar queens either.
 
172andyou said:
Yep. You'll see Cirrus and Diamond airplanes on ramps all the time. Boeing 787's aren't exactly hangar queens either.
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I am not sure the B-787 is a valid plane for comparison. Whereas I agree with your premise that non metal airplanes are OK on the ramp, I would add "for now" and counter that the life expectancy to economic obsolescence of a commercial airliner (+/- 25 years) is significantly shorter than the life expectancy of the typical GA aircraft. Will today's Cirrus, stored outside on the ramp, still be structurally airworthy in 75 years? Only time will tell.

-Skip
 
Composite boats have been sitting outside 24/7/365 since the 1950's.
Gel coat deteriorates. But gel coat sucks to begin with.
Wax and/or paint will protect it.
Dark colors can result in creep when it heats up under the sun.
You can get blisters below the water line, but if your airplane spends enough time in the water for that to happen, either you have an amphibian that you are keeping on a mooring, or you have bigger problems.
 
Skip Miller said:
I am not sure the B-787 is a valid plane for comparison. Whereas I agree with your premise that non metal airplanes are OK on the ramp, I would add "for now" and counter that the life expectancy to economic obsolescence of a commercial airliner (+/- 25 years) is significantly shorter than the life expectancy of the typical GA aircraft. Will today's Cirrus, stored outside on the ramp, still be structurally airworthy in 75 years? Only time will tell.
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If the reason for the 25 year timeline is because the composites rot, then I'm with you. If it's because design keeps advancing and the cost of operating a new plane versus the cost of retrofitting and operating a 25 year old plane drives one to buy a new plane, then I'm not.

Hint: It's the latter. :-)
 
Skip Miller said:
I am not sure the B-787 is a valid plane for comparison. Whereas I agree with your premise that non metal airplanes are OK on the ramp, I would add "for now" and counter that the life expectancy to economic obsolescence of a commercial airliner (+/- 25 years) is significantly shorter than the life expectancy of the typical GA aircraft. Will today's Cirrus, stored outside on the ramp, still be structurally airworthy in 75 years? Only time will tell.

-Skip
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I bet if you asked Cessna or Piper in the Seventies if they expected their airframe would be flying and in general service 50 years or more they’d say NO WAY!
 
bonefishpete said:
I bet if you asked Cessna or Piper in the Seventies if they expected their airframe would be flying and in general service 50 years or more they’d say NO WAY!
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In the 70s you could go to any flight line and find planes from the 30s & 40s flying around

Heck in the 2025s you can still find lots of planes from the 40s and the like flying around, I got one myself

Don’t the diamond have a temp indicator on the skin?
 
Be careful on the terms. Fiberglass will not be significantly damaged by UV, but the matrix holding it together will be.

So yes, a PROPERLY PROTECTED composite airframe can sit out side.
 
Roller said:
Don’t the diamond have a temp indicator on the skin?
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There's the little turkey thermometer thing between the seats.
 
Epoxy is degraded by UV light but unpainted surfaces can be protected by a clear UV inhibiting coating. Painted surfaces are protected. It is rare to have a carbon/epoxy composite left bare. One of the formula cars I raced did have uncoated carbon fiber epoxy structural bits (monocoque tub, front and rear wing aero elements and end plates) and the manufacturer required UV inhibiting coatings for certification. Automotive paint or UV inhibiting clear coatings were approved. Boats, in general, are fiberglass/polyester or vinylester resin composites and either of those two resins are UV resistant even without pigmented coatings (paint or gelcoat).
 
Get a hangar! Hehe, don’t ya want to store stuff and do oil changes and the likes?
 
I would love to get a hangar but KHFD has none available. When the do come up they are 700 per month which I would pay but again, none available.
 
When I worked for the airlines the 787 only went inside when it was broke
 
Skip Miller said:
I am not sure the B-787 is a valid plane for comparison. Whereas I agree with your premise that non metal airplanes are OK on the ramp, I would add "for now" and counter that the life expectancy to economic obsolescence of a commercial airliner (+/- 25 years) is significantly shorter than the life expectancy of the typical GA aircraft. Will today's Cirrus, stored outside on the ramp, still be structurally airworthy in 75 years? Only time will tell.
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Doesn't the Cirrus still have a 12,000 hour airframe life limit anyway?

Roller said:
Don’t the diamond have a temp indicator on the skin?
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The DA20, yes. I don't think any of the others do (maybe the HK36).
 
Actually, the DA20 is the only Diamond aircraft that has a high temperature limit. It is actually for the spar (important), and the indicator is mounted to the spar bridge in the cockpit. Limit is 131 degrees F structural temperature. Interestingly, my DA40 has a low temperature limit of -40 degrees F. It is not related to the airframe, but rather for the avionics. Not an issue for me here in S. TX...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Doesn't the Cirrus still have a 12,000 hour airframe life limit anyway?
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If well-maintained Cirrus' still seems airworthy at 1200 hours, I am sure Cirrus will increase airframe limits on new production aircraft. It's not unheard of in aviation. Rotax made the 915is, and put TBO at 1200 hours. They realized the engine would stay good far beyond that, if the cylinders were improved, so they changed them out, and increased TBO to 2000 hours with the 916is. That's a 66% increase for the TBO, it would be hard to imagine they wouldn't do that with aircraft, too.

Now, if Cirrus' can consistently survive until around 12,000 airframe hours is a different question.
 
Corin said:
If well-maintained Cirrus' still seems airworthy at 1200 hours, I am sure Cirrus will increase airframe limits on new production aircraft. It's not unheard of in aviation. Rotax made the 915is, and put TBO at 1200 hours. They realized the engine would stay good far beyond that, if the cylinders were improved, so they changed them out, and increased TBO to 2000 hours with the 916is. That's a 66% increase for the TBO, it would be hard to imagine they wouldn't do that with aircraft, too.

Now, if Cirrus' can consistently survive until around 12,000 airframe hours is a different question.
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TBOs are meaningless other than as liability protection for the manufacturer.

Engines should be rebuild when they show performance / maintenance issues, not when a clock runs out (for Part 91mostly)
 
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