Car shopping: I think I'm going to avoid assimilation

mikea

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For whatever reason I got a bug yesterday morning to check into a Dodge Caliber. I've had my eye on the Magnum for a while and it looked like it was a similar car.

I went the the web site and got the scoop. The Caliber looks be another car aimed at surfer dudes - it has a beverage cooler and an option for speakers that drop down from the hatch to entertain at beach parties - but hey, it's made in good ol' Belvidere (where they made the Neon. That should have been a clue.) but hey, it's fairly cheap, so if I can fit in one...

So the site tells me there's a dealer right down the road. I can even see a specific car they have. A nice yellow one. Jann and I stopped in the showroom simply to try it for size. I'm greeted by Joe, an old line car salesman, who tells me I won't fit. I did fit but my knees wouldn't like hitting the console for long and I could see my head getting banged on bumps. I had maybe a half inch of clearance.

So, Joe, let me try sitting in a Magnum. It's a great fit and pretty nice car. They just started employee pricing, meaning they have the list - 20% price right on the dash.

In spite of listening for an hour while Joe regaled us with his war stories, I left with my wallet intact to do some more research on the web. I was actually more entertained by the guy than intimidated. What car do I have now? I have two. They're both 97s. Why do you care? I'm not doing a trade. We were the only customers in the place late on the Saturday of this holiday weekend. My patience held out well. He didn't apply too much pressure, although he also had to size me up to see if I was just a looky loo. I didn't tell him I owned a plane until way later, if that mattered. :rolleyes: I didn't leave him with enough info to run a credit check on me. I read on his desk the sheet with the "great deal" they have on the dealer's add-on enhancement packages with a wax job and interior spray which a have a "great, one price" of $1000 and up. This does not give me a good feeling. I have to shake the hand of the sales manager on the way out. Joe follows us to my 97 Sable. I should have let him see the 177,000 miles on the odo. :D

I found that it apears the Magnum owners and fanbois have few complaints. Some of these guys amaze me. They're backslapping each other about being able to buy the new SRT8 version for a mere $3000 over list.

Along the way I discover that the Caliber is the replacement for the Neon. It's supposed to be a compact, economy car. They say it's slow. I rented a Neon years ago and didn't think it was too bad.

I looked up the price of a V8 AWD version of the Magnum At $30,000 plus it means payments in the $500 a month area at 36, 48, or 60 months even with 20% down. So when I see these new cars on the road people have gone for that? No wonder they say they can't save any money.

I can go for the V6 version for about 20% less.

That is BTW, more than I owe on the plane.

I guess it's been too long since I bought the Mustang 10 years ago. I guess it shouldn't be such a surprise.

I decided to go for buying a house first. I'll check back sometime next year when I know what I'm doing in that respect.

This, like an old Bob Greene column, is "Mike discovers common knowlege."
 
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Mike, smart to do the house first. The car loan WILL hit your FICO score pretty hard.

When you do decide to go for the car, two thoughts: first, check with your company.... the car companies often extend "family" discounts to large fleet users (when I negotiated a fleet deal with Ford we got the X-Plan for our employees)... the second is *if* you belong to a credit union, they often have contracts with groups like United Buyers that provide "no-negotiate" deals. With both of those contracts you often avoid the dealer "packs" like the special wash-wax job for $1000.

One of the big dealers down here puts "extra stuff" on the cars when they come in (like anti-theft window etching) and then tells the customer that "they all come like that". If you start to walk, they offer to "order" a vehicle without it, but that takes 6-8 weeks. No thanks - I walk.
 
Mike, despite the fact that Ford has a 25% chance of being bankrupt in 5 years (B++ bond rating), go look at a 500. Look at the Front wheel drive version in top trim. It'll go for about $27,000 including taxes, with 210 hp. Not your mustang but with the electric seat you'll fit.

It's really a very nicely designed, inexpensive car with something like 13 airbags....but not what you want if you need 300 horsepower.
 
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wsuffa said:
One of the big dealers down here puts "extra stuff" on the cars when they come in (like anti-theft window etching) and then tells the customer that "they all come like that". If you start to walk, they offer to "order" a vehicle without it, but that takes 6-8 weeks. No thanks - I walk.

That'd be a dealer owned by Sonic Automotive Group, I'd venture. I went 'round and 'round with a salesman at one f their dealers once, as he explained to me how "valuable" the window etching was and why it was worth (what, something like $995.00?); the factory standard AM/FM/Cassete had been replaced with the slide-in AM/FM/CD player, and an extra $600.00- I asked where the credit for the removed stereo was, he told me it was already applied.

$300.00 cargo tray, $495.00 floor mats (the car comes with floor mats standard where'd they go?), and don't even get me started on the "upgraded" wheels and tires (again, an extra $1,425.00 for wheels and tires, when the factory spec included damn nice aluminum wheels and Michelins?).

I won't buy from a dealer that will not roll out a rational and no-BS price from the git go, and they don't deserve my money. Have found a few shops who'll do just that, and it makes life a lot easier.

This is what has made Lexus successful- during their first several years, the cars were uninspiring at best (well-built, true, but dull), but the dealers' attitude of respect served them well. Now, of course, the product has long-since caught up with the service.

===

Oh yeah, and what Dr. Bruce said- I have an employee who bought a Ford Five Hundred about six months ago, and it is darned nice, tight as a drum and very good on the gas. I'd gladly drive one.

But my Caddy's almost paid off, and I intend to keep it to at least 150,000 miles. Gotta save my car money for flying, y'know.
 
Nothing new in our driveway. My 1999 Jeep Wrangler is the newest car we own. Dealer was selling Jeeps (any one) for $500 over invoice back then. That was better than the suggested negiated price on Edmunds.com by a large amount. Wife's 1997 Grand Cherokee has over 174,000 miles on it and still runs great. Why would we buy something new when what we have runs fine? Detroit hates people like us. Pay it off, run it until you can't stand the repair bills and maintain it well in between. Don't know what will be next, I don't expect to be looking for a few more years. I'd like a Corvette (been lusting after that for decades) but I can't see spending what they want for a new one and there's no room in the garage for when it wouldn't be on the road. Someday... :rolleyes:
 
One of the reasons I like MINI so much is the ability to go to their website, build the car like you want, order it from the website, and never even have to deal with the dealership until you get ready to come pick it up. Fax pertinent information and answer questions for the credit application. There's a wait time for building and shipping (about 8 weeks), but you get a completely customized car and you know what your price is. The only thing you have to do is show up when it's in and ready, sign off on the paperwork (including your choice of warranties and any misc. extras before you take delivery), then you drive off in your new car.

The days of dealing with an auto salesman are coming to an end.
 
Ghery said:
Why would we buy something new when what we have runs fine?


Ghery, maybe you can talk some sense into my ex. His company makes the lease payments, but still........ He bought a 2005 S55 AMG. Six months later he decided it was too fast (can you say three speeding tickets?) so he traded it in on an S 500. He bought the twins a 2006 Camry. Then my son saw the 2007 model and decided he needed the larger engine, and goodies. This is the same kid who got his first ticket three weeks ago. In a Lamborghini Ghibli. So when I show up at the ex's house this last week, I see the new Camry, the S500 AND an SL 600 sitting in the garage. Sweet car, but at 140K...I could have a real nice Cardinal. I asked why the heck he needs TWO MB's when his mail order bride doesn't even know how to drive. He just said "because its what I want".

And I know in another 6-8 months, he'll tire of those and trade them in on something else.
 
DeeG said:
Ghery, maybe you can talk some sense into my ex. His company makes the lease payments, but still........ He bought a 2005 S55 AMG. Six months later he decided it was too fast (can you say three speeding tickets?) so he traded it in on an S 500. He bought the twins a 2006 Camry. Then my son saw the 2007 model and decided he needed the larger engine, and goodies. This is the same kid who got his first ticket three weeks ago. In a Lamborghini Ghibli. So when I show up at the ex's house this last week, I see the new Camry, the S500 AND an SL 600 sitting in the garage. Sweet car, but at 140K...I could have a real nice Cardinal. I asked why the heck he needs TWO MB's when his mail order bride doesn't even know how to drive. He just said "because its what I want".

And I know in another 6-8 months, he'll tire of those and trade them in on something else.

Some people have more money than brains? I could buy what I want (well, I can't swing a PC-12 :rolleyes: ) but the consequences to long term planning would be devistating. So I save. We still have our extravigances, but a new car (or two) a year just isn't one of them. And $140K for a car? You've got to be kidding. You're right about the Cardinal. And you've have money left over for 100LL, too. :D
 
DeeG said:
Ghery, maybe you can talk some sense into my ex. His company makes the lease payments, but still........ He bought a 2005 S55 AMG. Six months later he decided it was too fast (can you say three speeding tickets?) so he traded it in on an S 500. He bought the twins a 2006 Camry. Then my son saw the 2007 model and decided he needed the larger engine, and goodies. This is the same kid who got his first ticket three weeks ago. In a Lamborghini Ghibli. So when I show up at the ex's house this last week, I see the new Camry, the S500 AND an SL 600 sitting in the garage. Sweet car, but at 140K...I could have a real nice Cardinal. I asked why the heck he needs TWO MB's when his mail order bride doesn't even know how to drive. He just said "because its what I want".

And I know in another 6-8 months, he'll tire of those and trade them in on something else.
He's got too much money.

Mike's shopping because among other things he rally doens't have a workable PIC seat in his Mustang....
 
wbarnhill said:
One of the reasons I like MINI so much is the ability to go to their website, build the car like you want, order it from the website, and never even have to deal with the dealership until you get ready to come pick it up.

BMW does that for all of their models.
 
bbchien said:
He's got too much money.

Mike's shopping because among other things he rally doens't have a workable PIC seat in his Mustang....
Yeah, but I'm not driving that one, and fixing it will be trivial. The battery didn't survive the winter. I put $1500 into fixing the air conditioning last year but I'm driving the one where the air conditioning is as dead as that one was. Just another $1500, which is more than I paid for the car.

Just for you Bruce, I'll get a new seat.
 
I can't see buying NEW anymore, you just can't pay for them fast enough. My wife wanted a new car last November, we ended up buying a very well kept Lincoln LS V8. This car was over 40K new and we picked it up for 10K, and even with the V8 it gets 28MPG on the hwy.( When she drives) about 21 when I drive it :D And they haven't changed the body style for years, so it looks just like a new one.
 
mikea said:
I looked up the price of a V8 AWD version of the Magnum At $30,000 plus it means payments in the $500 a month area at 36, 48, or 60 months even with 20% down. So when I see these new cars on the road people have gone for that? No wonder they say they can't save any money.

I can go for the V6 version for about 20% less.

Mike - Go for the house and enjoy not paying car payments, but when you are ready and if you still are interested in the Magnum, DON'T get the V6. Way too underpowered and I'm not just talking about for hotrodding. I've got the V8AWD and have driven quite a few of the V6's - not enough power for that extra weight.
 
bbchien said:
Mike, despite the fact that Ford has a 25% chance of being bankrupt in 5 years (B++ bond rating), go look at a 500.

Bruce,

At Gaston's I got the distinct impression that you were, um, less than happy with yours? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Bruce,

At Gaston's I got the distinct impression that you were, um, less than happy with yours? :dunno:
It's an inexpensive car. I shoulda bought a Volvo. My own d_mn fault...I got a Miata, then the Ford and have two....which together = one Volvo.

But if trying to avoid a big note, that's what's needed, and Mike I think would like to not have a huge payment. :-0
 
I was assimilated.

Of course, the car this replaced (well, actuall I still have and drive it daily) was a 1989 Ford Probe GT with some 218K miles on it ... and that replaced 1 1979 Dodge van with some 210K miles on it. So maybe I'm not totally assimilated yet.

In any case, anyone looking for something sporty, roomy, not real "flashy", and just a little different than everything else out there (only 5000 of these to be sold in the US) should do themselves a favor and drive one of these. You'll thank me later.
 

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mgkdrgn said:
Of course, the car this replaced (well, actuall I still have and drive it daily) was a 1989 Ford Probe GT with some 218K miles on it ...

Another Probe driver! :yes: I'm driving a '93 GT with 145k. Wonderful car, handles like a dream and is suprisingly roomy (for two!). With the rear seats down you can really pack a lot of stuff in there. Seemingly bulletproof.
 
Hmmm, reading this makes me want to drive one of my old MG's in the rain, at night. :goofy:
 
Anthony said:
Hmmm, reading this makes me want to drive one of my old MG's in the rain, at night. :goofy:

Can come ride in my Jag...all the same experiences, half the lighting ;)
 
SJP said:
Can come ride in my Jag...all the same experiences, half the lighting ;)

I love the XKE and all the British sports cars including in no particular order:

MGA - had a 1961 MK II fixed head coupe
MGB - had a 1967
Triumph TR3 - want one
Triumph TR250 - want one
Austin Healey bug eye Sprite - want one
Austin Healey 3000 - want one!!!
XKE - want one in the worst way!

Lucas electrics - worse to maintain that any aircraft's electrical system (except mine and Toby's).
 
bbchien said:
It's an inexpensive car. I shoulda bought a Volvo. My own d_mn fault...I got a Miata, then the Ford and have two....which together = one Volvo.

:rofl:

I must say that I'm thoroughly enjoying the Volvo that I bought a couple of months ago. (S60 T5) Many little nice touches that I keep discovering and thinking "Why hasn't anyone done that before?" It's a very user-friendly car. :yes:

But if trying to avoid a big note, that's what's needed, and Mike I think would like to not have a huge payment. :-0

Which is why I bought my Volvo used. You may remember that I posted about it when I bought it off eBay and was kind of freaking out a bit because I hadn't seen it myself. :hairraise: However, I got the Carfax report and had it checked out (on my mech's advice, I found a nearby Bosch service center to do it) and there were no surprises, except for the low price that I got. :)

And it may be used, but when I hop in it to go to the airport in a few minutes, it'll still be 30 years newer than the airplane I'm gonna fly! :rofl:
 
Here ya go .. 218K miles, I'm the orig owner. Still on the orig clutch. Very few mods ... strut tower braces, new ECU chip, replaced the orig struts at 190K. Drive to work 4 out of 5 days a week, still outruns 90% of whats on the road.

And if you've never gone there ... www.probetalk.com.

Gary said:
Another Probe driver! :yes: I'm driving a '93 GT with 145k. Wonderful car, handles like a dream and is suprisingly roomy (for two!). With the rear seats down you can really pack a lot of stuff in there. Seemingly bulletproof.
 

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I don't know if it's "different" enough for what you are looking for, but Cathy and I have been quite pleased with our Hyundai Elantra GT. It's got all kinds of fancy doo dads, leather seats, adequate performance, and a great warranty. More than two years into ownership we've not had to use that warranty. Not a thing has gone wrong with the car. Only weak spot is the paint. It's pretty, but thin and easily scratched in parking lots. We keep a little thing of touch up paint handy. Thing only cost $16K, a heck of a deal IMHO.

As for the Dodge's and other Chryslers, after my experience with a '98 Stratus, a transmission that self destructed six times in 60K miles, and a to honor their warranty, I'll never touch another Chrysler product as long as I live.
 
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Joe Williams said:
I don't know if it's "different" enough for what you are looking for, but Cathy and I have been quite pleased with our Hyundai Elantra GT. It's got all kinds of fancy doo dads, leather seats, adequate performance, and a great warranty. More than two years into ownership we've not had to use that warranty. Not a thing has gone wrong with the car. Only weak spot is the paint. It's pretty, but thin and easily scratched in parking lots. We keep a little thing of touch up paint handy. Thing only cost $16K, a heck of a deal IMHO.

As for the Dodge's and other Chryslers, after my experience with a '98 Stratus, a transmission that self destructed six times in 60K miles, and a to honor their warranty, I'll never touch another Chrysler product as long as I live.
I had a brand new 1974(?) Dodge Dart Sport 360 which wasn't too bad, except the dealer was total scum.

Chrysler is allegedly much reformed since Daimler took them over.
 
bbchien said:
It's an inexpensive car. I shoulda bought a Volvo. My own d_mn fault

Funny thing is, the 500 IS a Volvo underneath, body and chassis, and the top of the line one at that. Substitute Ford engine and tranny for the Volvo stuff, use a cheaper more plasticy interior, and get a top of the line Volvo for half price. Not bad, as long as your expectations are in line.

I'd rather get a de-contented top line car for $27k than pay $35k for a low line Acura or Lexus (basically Accords and Camrys with fancy interiors and more sound deadening).
 
mikea said:
So when I see these new cars on the road people have gone for that? No wonder they say they can't save any money.

They've gone for that and a whole lot more. I have a buddy who's household has a similar income to us, and he lives in a $350k house, they have two $45k SUV's, and wear/own all of the latest flashy trendy stuff. I wondered how they did it, and one day he confided in me.

We're mortgaged up to our eyeballs, the cars are leased, and we have over $30k on credit cards, but hey, we're having fun. Ugh. :dunno:
 
Bill Jennings said:
We're mortgaged up to our eyeballs, the cars are leased, and we have over $30k on credit cards, but hey, we're having fun. Ugh. :dunno:

I fear that much of the population is in that same sinking boat. As soon as their variable rate mortgages or interest only variable rate mortgages have an interest rate hike (already happening) their house of cards will tumble. We may be hearing a scary term from the late 80's early 90's.......NEGATIVE EQUITY. :(
 
Anthony said:
I fear that much of the population is in that same sinking boat. As soon as their variable rate mortgages or interest only variable rate mortgages have an interest rate hike (already happening) their house of cards will tumble. We may be hearing a scary term from the late 80's early 90's.......NEGATIVE EQUITY. :(
I think it was MSNBC where I read about these new super low interest rate mortgates that start you at 1.25%...

You actually lose equity on the house for the first 5 or so years.

Its insane.
 
Greebo said:
I think it was MSNBC where I read about these new super low interest rate mortgates that start you at 1.25%...

You actually lose equity on the house for the first 5 or so years.

Its insane.

Yes, and now they also have 50 year mortgages to offer at least "some" equity building over time. When you look at the fact that the average home owner sells their house every 7 years, its more like renting than owning.

Foreclosures on homes with negative equtiy will cause issues for lenders. I don't believe in a national housing bubble, but in selected markets, rising interest rates could cause more foreclosures, lower property values and bad loans getting worse.
 
Joe Williams said:
As for the Dodge's and other Chryslers, after my experience with a '98 Stratus, a transmission that self destructed six times in 60K miles, and a to honor their warranty, I'll never touch another Chrysler product as long as I live.

Same way I feel about GM. They wouldn't honor warranty, the dealer was a scum (even got me a parking ticket when one of their minions parked my car in a fire lane around the block when it was in for service).
 
Bill Jennings said:
We're mortgaged up to our eyeballs, the cars are leased, and we have over $30k on credit cards, but hey, we're having fun. Ugh. :dunno:

I've got a friend here in Atlanta who owns a "high end" accounting firm.
I was asking him how people lived so "high" here in ATL. I thought I was just stoopid about how much people actually earnred.....

He told me most of them were "mortgaged up to our (their) eyeballs, the cars are leased, and have over $30k on credit cards".

Man I feel luckier now. No credit card payments, one car payment, no plane payment.. (well it's in for annual as I write this).
 
Keith Lane said:
Man I feel luckier now. No credit card payments, one car payment, no plane payment.. (well it's in for annual as I write this).

No car payment, no credit card payment, low mortgage payment in a modest house, own the plane outright. Save first then buy is my motto. I tried the credit card route and it took me 7 years to dig out form under that mess. That was 10 years ago and I will never finance all that stuff again.
 
larrysb said:
Last new car I bought was my 2002 Corvette Convertible 6spd. Four years later, the paint and interior still look like new and the car has been nothing short of fabulous. Most reliable new car I've ever owned, beating all Japanese and German (by a big margin there) makes I've ever owned.

I bought an ex-rental car 2005 Astro Van last fall. 20k miles of I'm sure the most loving of treatment (NOT!) but it was an extremely good deal and has been completely trouble free as well.

I will never again purchase anything from a VW-Porsche-Audi autogroup, no matter where they have their tentacles these days.
One of the war stories Joe the salesman told was a VW salesman getting drunk enough to admit the power of their marketing message on that fine German engineering and quality.

VWs are made in Mexico.
 
mikea said:
One of the war stories Joe the salesman told was a VW salesman getting drunk enough to admit the power of their marketing message on that fine German engineering and quality.

VWs are made in Mexico.

That's why they say, "German-engineered."

That said, we have a Jetta Turbo, built in VW's Puebla plant, and it is outstanding. Delivered with no apparent quality glitches, and almost three years later, the only failure it has had was the battery, which just... failed. Replaced under warranty.

Dealer service has been excellent (they are open until midnight, and that means, open *with* mechanics on duty, they run two overlapping shifts), and always give me a free loaner car.

Salesman gave firm, and fair, price from the git-go, no undercoating or extended warranties or floor mats to buy, no "checking with the manager"; he said, "you send me one new customer, I do better than whatever I might have made on shaking you down, plus, life's too short to try to keep up with your lies, so just stick with the truth, its easier."

So, YMMV, but I have been very happy with the VW (Mexican-built or not), as I was happy with the Audi which preceded it, and the Audi which preceded *that* one (216,000 miles worth).

For that matter, my 2001 Cadillac is a real gem, too.
 
mikea said:
VWs are made in Mexico.

Among truckers, it seems to be taboo to drive a non-American car. My favorite retort when someone gave me crap for driving a Honda:

"Which is more American, my Honda that was built in Ohio, or your Ford that was built in Mexico?" :D

Of course, my Volvo really was built overseas, so I need to come up with a new line!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of course, my Volvo really was built overseas, so I need to come up with a new line!

Ford owns Volvo, so that makes it an American car in my book. No different than a Crown Vic built in Windsor, Canada.
 
mgkdrgn said:
Here ya go .. 218K miles, I'm the orig owner. Still on the orig clutch. Very few mods ... strut tower braces, new ECU chip, replaced the orig struts at 190K. Drive to work 4 out of 5 days a week, still outruns 90% of whats on the road.

And if you've never gone there ... www.probetalk.com.


I had to give up my '94 GT when we couldn't find a rear facing child seat that would fit. I still miss that car. Plenty of power, good mileage, and you could pack a house in it. My wife like the probes so much she owned 3 of the 4 cyl cars. After the last one was destroyed by a wayward skyhawk at the airport in 2005, she bought an Acura RSX. She still bemoans missing her probe.

Great cars. A few electrical glitches, but otherwise bulletproof. I like my mustang but would buy a new probe again in a heartbeat if they still built them.

Jim G
 
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