Can you see the horizon?

iflyforfun said:
He is long gone. He is actually a somewhat well known accelerated IFR instructor. His statement NEVER made any sense, but there was no discussing it. He made it 3 days with me and was gone. I was just remembering this exchange (happened back in 2004) and I wondered if it was common at all or as odd as it struck me. Seems the general concensus is that it is simply an odd-ball statement.
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It's screwy, all right... some student must have scared the crap out of him once while climbing at Vx. :D I'd also guess that he is one of those CFIIs who sees VFR flying as something you only do to prepare for the IR... a necessary evil.

Unless the airplane has no side windows, I don't see why the nose blocking the horizon would be a big deal at any time, as far as control is concerned. One of the first "tricks" I was taught, mostly to help maintain precise control when navigating by pilotage or doing ground-ref maneuvers, was to note the relationship between the wingtip and the horizon to the side.

Even if he was worried about traffic, the peripheral view helps there somewhat, and there are other "tricks", like lowering the nose just until you can see that area, briefly, at 1000-foot intervals on long climbs, or making shallow turns while climbing.

Then there's the fact that it is perfectly legal and sensible while in VMC under VFR to glance at any instrument that will help... in fact, I recall the CFI I did my night requirements with telling me "See that? This is basically IFR flying" when I made my first night takeoff under an overcast, with no ground lights near the horizon ahead of us. He didn't mean to say "This is illegal", he just meant that the IFR-style instrument-scan training for VFR students was for more than just the "turnaround from inadvertent IMC".
 
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rottydaddy said:
Then there's the fact that it is perfectly legal and sensible while in IMC under VFR to glance at any instrument that will help... in fact, I recall the CFI I did my night requirements with telling me "See that? This is basically IFR flying" when I made my first night takeoff under an overcast, with no ground lights near the horizon ahead of us. He didn't mean to say "This is illegal", he just meant that the IFR-style instrument-scan training for VFR students was for more than just the "turnaround from inadvertent IMC".
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Wise CFI, I wish more taught that. The instrument training for the PPL shouldn't just be to check a box, or to make sure VFR-only pilots are scared of IMC. Having a good scan can save you from embarrassing "how did that happen moments" -- or worse.
 
tangopapa said:
I'm still a newbie student, but I've been taught to always climb Vy on takeoff. Granted, I have not been to another airport yet, but what would be the reason for not climbing at Vy? Obviously if there is an obstruction, best angle of climb Vx would be appropriate. I'm wondering if a shallow angle of climb as the OP describes is ever prudent.

Just curious. Sorry for the thread creep.
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At my airport, once clear of obstructions you lower the nose, otherwise you WILL quickly be in Class Bravo airspace.
flyingcheesehead said:
So, short people should have lower climb rates? :dunno:
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Your climb should cost the same as everyone elses. Fair pricing across the board.:D
 
Jaybird180 said:
At my airport, once clear of obstructions you lower the nose, otherwise you WILL quickly be in Class Bravo airspace.
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That also makes sense. At my airport, we usually climb Vy until we get to pattern altitude, at which time we lower the nose to stay out of our local Class Charlie airspace. Thanks!
 
For 3 out of 4 directions, if you put the nose down at 1000' msl at my airport you are dead, dead, dead. Had someone learn that the hard way a couple of years ago. Some wag put a sticky note on the instrument panel of some of the planes: "Off 8, 26, or 17, fly Vy or die."


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Your altitudes may vary. Any resemblance to persons living or dead is strictly coincidental. Titles, taxes and transportation fees not included.
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Well when you're climbing out or doing power on stalls, you can no longer see the horizon over the cowling. But you can still see the horizon on either side and therefore are still VFR. It when when a VFR pilot can no longer see the horizon at all that he is IFR and needs to call ATC.
And when you are on final you certainly are not looking at the horizon; you would be looking at your aiming point.
 
iflyforfun said:
Question for the instructors out there. I once had an instructor who insisted that "If you can't see the horizon over the nose of the aircraft, you are IFR". He would never allow the nose of the AC over the horizon and would immediately bark if it occured.

During a long climb, I'll often not be able to see the horizon over the nose. With great side visibility, it isn't a problem of losing spatial orientation (in my opinion). Granted, for a long climb at a steep angle, I'll often make a small turn left and right to make sure someone else isn't doing the same thing and climbing into me, but I never understood his strong objection.

Thoughts? Opinions?
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th
 
DogDaddy said:
Well when you're climbing out or doing power on stalls, you can no longer see the horizon over the cowling. But you can still see the horizon on either side and therefore are still VFR. It when when a VFR pilot can no longer see the horizon at all that he is IFR and needs to call ATC.
And when you are on final you certainly are not looking at the horizon; you would be looking at your aiming point.
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If I'm climbing in a valley, I can't see the horizon off my wings. Or even if straight and level. That doesn't mean I am IFR. And ATC most likely isn't going to be able to see me on RADAR if I am in a valley.
 
jpower said:
Yup...exactly right. Especially in the summer, you won't fly much if at all if you need the horizon. I've flown countless times with no horizon--soloed on a day without one. Sure, it makes some maneuvers like steep turns more difficult to do visually, but it's not dangerous at all...certainly not IMC.
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I'm not instrument rated. Recently on a late night flight over a rural area I ended up above a low layer of fog. All the lights on the ground suddenly started disappearing. I was able to make out only some of the trucks' taillights on the interstate but it was as if I was wearing sunglasses at night. The only reference I had was those truck lights. No horizon in sight. I did call ATC and they kept me on their radar and even had me do a standard rate 180 degree turn. Just those dim truck lights were enough to help me stay level while ATC guided me to my airport by following the interstate for about 10 miles. I am not saying it's OK to fly over/through fog at night. I'm just saying that I ended up in a situation where I could not see the horizon yet because of ground lights (and help from ATC) I was able to get back to the airport and land. That was the longest 10 miles I've ever flown. :frown3:
 
This reminds me that next time flying to find new reference marks for different visual climb attitudes. I should be able to rattle them off, but now I guess I just put it where I need it.
 
I suppose short pilots would need their Instrument Ratings before they solo.
 
DogDaddy said:
I'm not instrument rated. Recently on a late night flight over a rural area I ended up above a low layer of fog. All the lights on the ground suddenly started disappearing. I was able to make out only some of the trucks' taillights on the interstate but it was as if I was wearing sunglasses at night. The only reference I had was those truck lights. No horizon in sight. I did call ATC and they kept me on their radar and even had me do a standard rate 180 degree turn. Just those dim truck lights were enough to help me stay level while ATC guided me to my airport by following the interstate for about 10 miles. I am not saying it's OK to fly over/through fog at night. I'm just saying that I ended up in a situation where I could not see the horizon yet because of ground lights (and help from ATC) I was able to get back to the airport and land. That was the longest 10 miles I've ever flown. :frown3:
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If there was fog, there probably wasn't an overcast. Turn down/off the instrument panel lights, and look for the stars.
 
EdFred said:
If there was fog, there probably wasn't an overcast. Turn down/off the instrument panel lights, and look for the stars.
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You're right! Thanks.
In fact ATC did have me climb about 500 ft higher, apparently to keep me out of the fog.
 
DogDaddy said:
Well when you're climbing out or doing power on stalls, you can no longer see the horizon over the cowling. But you can still see the horizon on either side and therefore are still VFR. It when when a VFR pilot can no longer see the horizon at all that he is IFR and needs to call ATC.
And when you are on final you certainly are not looking at the horizon; you would be looking at your aiming point.
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Not necessarily...see below.

DogDaddy said:
I'm not instrument rated. Recently on a late night flight over a rural area I ended up above a low layer of fog. All the lights on the ground suddenly started disappearing. I was able to make out only some of the trucks' taillights on the interstate but it was as if I was wearing sunglasses at night. The only reference I had was those truck lights. No horizon in sight. I did call ATC and they kept me on their radar and even had me do a standard rate 180 degree turn. Just those dim truck lights were enough to help me stay level while ATC guided me to my airport by following the interstate for about 10 miles. I am not saying it's OK to fly over/through fog at night. I'm just saying that I ended up in a situation where I could not see the horizon yet because of ground lights (and help from ATC) I was able to get back to the airport and land. That was the longest 10 miles I've ever flown. :frown3:
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On my night cross country with my instructor, I took off from Ocean City, MD into a dark inky blackness...it was pretty crazy. Visibility was 3-5 in mist and it was (of course) pitch black. Pure chance had us tag teaming the cross country with another plane from my flight school, also on a night dual cross country. They landed, but they couldn't see anything once they were down taxiway-wise, and there was a lot of construction going on at the airport too, so one of the runways and several taxiways were closed. Taking off though...man that was amazing. Looking straight ahead into nothing is pretty eerie.
 
How can he possibly teach Vx climbs?

I bet he's afraid of stalling, and uses the horizon thing to keep the speed up. Does he have you approach at ridiculous speeds, too?

Dan
 
After getting to pattern altitude or so, I like to see a little better and keep the engine cooler.
 
azure said:
Wise CFI, I wish more taught that. The instrument training for the PPL shouldn't just be to check a box, or to make sure VFR-only pilots are scared of IMC. Having a good scan can save you from embarrassing "how did that happen moments" -- or worse.
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Exactly. And then there's the unusual attitude recovery stuff under the hood... scares the hell out of some PPASEL students, who then terrify their instructors, I'm sure... but even scarier is that one time you blunder into a cloud at night, or get suckered into a hole spiraling down to get under clouds (or whatever the scenario) and quickly realize you are not in control and have no clue how to fix that problem.

...and... I see now that I wrote "in IMC under VFR"... I meant VMC; had to fix that. D'oh.

:redface:
 
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