Can you rent experimentals for profit?
- Thread starter stratobee
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AcroGimp
Cleared for Takeoff
With a LODA and under very specific circumstances - usually related to transition or other very clearly defined types of training, yes. For general rental use, no.
Not easy to get as some FSDO's are simply not experienced with it and most Inspectors rely on precedent rather than creating it.
YMMV.
'Gimp
Not easy to get as some FSDO's are simply not experienced with it and most Inspectors rely on precedent rather than creating it.
YMMV.
'Gimp
stratobee
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stratobee
Yes you can, but not part 91.
This is one of those things that is NOT supported by the literal regulations but the way the FAA misinterprets the regulation pretty much bars you from doing so.
mrkbbd
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think with some creative engineering of legal entities you probably could - I'm thinking purchasing a 1/1,000,000 share in the airplane to join an "equity club" which can provide training and rent the aircraft to members...does not necessarily have to be not-for-profit (also remember not-for-profit does not mean no profits...)
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
With creative engineering of legal entities you could also have it determined to be a sham and expose everyone in the group to certificate action or penalties.
mrkbbd
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They have the burden
I can't see why a 'Private Club' setting shouldn't work for airplanes, it works for booze.
poadeleted20
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I think the bottom line is that it is theoretically possible in some circumstances with enough paper work and the acceptance of a lot of limitations, but the general answer is "no".
mrkbbd
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EXACTLY what I was thinking of :-D
stratobee
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stratobee
No, just curious. I was reading about how hard the Euro guys have it building time over there. As you know, there isn't much in the way of entry level aviation jobs there. I was thinking if the future holds some cheap electric experimental trainer they could come over here and build hours on. But if its not legal, then it doesn't work.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
I cannot even auction off a offer a ride in my experimental to a fund raising event "legally", but I still do it. I'm not much for stupid rules. 
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mrkbbd
Pre-takeoff checklist
The problem is a "cheap" electric trainer will still be more expensive than a $15k c150 with basic avionics...even putting the gas in the plane there is no way the electric plane could compete with that...
mrkbbd
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We all know you're auctioning off a meet and greet with you and then after that is all said and done you offer to take them flying for free...
The model that can make it legal is through a flying club.
TUPilot
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Even assuming you can get an equity club going with a large number of members all co-owning an experimental, insurance will be tough. Each insurer has a number of owners at which they treat it as a commercial operation--not a big deal if you have a Piper or Cessna other than an added cost, but may be tricky since I doubt anyone has a product ready to provide commercial coverage to an RV or Velocity.
Jim Logajan
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Not sure I see that as a "no you can't". As I understand it:
If an entity, like a bank, loans money to the builder (or purchaser) of an experimental aircraft, that entity will hold a lien, possibly even the title, on it until the loan is paid off, which may not occur for years after the aircraft is flying. In this case we see that the aircraft lien holder (or even the owner) is being compensated for use of the experimental because they don't seem to be considered the "operator" for the purposes of 91.319 - and this is confirmed by the fact that (to my knowledge) the FAA has never taken action against such arrangements. Certainly title/ownership is not clear and unencumbered for such aircraft.
Since the wording used in 91.319 is almost identical in phrasing to that of 61.113, which we know isn't intended to prohibit the renting of aircraft to private pilots, it seems reasonable to presume that the intent of 91.319 was to prohibit use of experimental aircraft in Part 91 commercial operations or Part 121 and 135 operations; not prevent them from being rented out to pilots for use in non-commercial Part 91 operations.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
It won't be tough, it will be expensive though, but not any more so than an FBO pays.
TUPilot
Pre-takeoff checklist
If they don't offer a product for experimental/commercial rental, they are going to do one of two things:
1) Refuse to offer coverage
2) Charge a massive premium compared to a certified aircraft in the same situation
I'm not talking about a 4-way partnership but a flight club with a dozen members or more. Even if they have equity the insurer will treat it as a commercial operation and few, if any, offer that type of coverage. I'd be curious to see what they quote though!
While I've not insured experimentals for club use, I've certainly handled taildraggers and other vintage planes (like my Navion). When you can get coverage, it pretty was the same as for other aircraft in the club fleet, pretty much directly proportional to the hull value. The issue is that finding someone to write the policy at all with the terms we wanted got progressively more difficult to obtain at any cost.
TUPilot
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Ron,
If you wouldn't mind sharing I'd be curious what your experience was insuring the Navion for club use, including how many members, if they are equity/non equity, the pilot requirements, and the premiums. I've been considering Navion or other "classic" complex aircraft but it would need to be done in the context of a club to make financial sense.