Can you land a Cessna gracefully in a gusty crosswind?

alfadog

alfadog

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alfadog
Yesterday, I took the club 172 up for a bit to do pattern work. My Arrow is still being worked on.

Anyway, it was a windy day here in South Florida. Wind was about 240@24G34. Went down to X51 and did a bunch of T&G's and full stops on RW 28. So I had a 12G17 crosswind component, prolly more at times as the wind direction shifted a bit.

These were not pretty landings. I had less trouble with the full stops than I did the T&G's, prolly due to the nosewheel helpng more. I would not say that I was on the "ragged edge" or "wrestling the airplane" but I was definitely not always able to put the airplane where I wanted it to be and keep it there. If I wanted to land it, I could land it, but at times I could not hold centerline and/or felt and heard the sideloading.

Curious what other folks have experienced in these conditions. I do not really have much reference because I am the only pilot I know that will happily try this kind of stuff :D
 
I learned in a DA20 and didn't have any issues. After 80 hours in a 172, my X-wind landings were still sloppier than I would have liked.
 
Do you think the gusts or the steady-state winds were the primary cause of your problems? How do you think the landings would have been different in your Piper?
 
Isn't that close or at the limit for a 172? If I remember correctly from training the max demonstrated crosswind is 15 knots for a 172.
 
wabower said:
Do you think the gusts or the steady-state winds were the primary cause of your problems? How do you think the landings would have been different in your Piper?
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Possibly both? The steady state during highest xwind periods may have been at the limit of rudder authority. Can you keep a 172 straight in a 20 KT xwind or are you going to land with a bit of sideloading? The gusts made it difficult to determine that. They definitely played havok as nothing was constant and I was a bit all over the place if I tried to hold it off the runway for practice rather than just get it down :D

I do not have enough time in my Arrow to say. My feeling is that the higher speed and higher wing loading would help some but I also think that the Arrow gear as not as forgiving of sideloads as the Cessna.
 
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I never had problems in strong winds in an A36. The C205 (Cessna equivalent in some ways) was a bit more work. I think this is due to not as much ground effect and the a higher CG in the Cessna.
 
Gubbins said:
Isn't that close or at the limit for a 172? If I remember correctly from training the max demonstrated crosswind is 15 knots for a 172.
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Yes, that is the point. If I arrive somewhere and ATIS has a 15 kt xwind, what do I do? Can I handle it because I have practiced and know I can or do I divert because I know that it is more than I can handle. Better than needlessly diverting or ignorantly attempting to land without that knowledge or skill. :yikes:
 
Was it still gusting to 34 when you got back? Was it the 17kt winds that were the problem? We fly in winds like that out here normally. The students learn that it takes work continuously to keep the plane lined up correctly. Pretty landings are just not possible sometimes but safe ones are. We don't practice if it's over gusting to 24 or so because in the 152 those become simply survival landings for them not much "fun". But they all know how to make landings up to that. And so far they have each experienced a side load which got their attention and not ever done it again. I hate it but they have to learn. And they know that if they break a tire they buy it :).
So, I guess the answer really is : no it's not graceful, it's a little more like a rodeo...
Yeeeee haw
 
No, I can't. I can land it...but I would NOT describe it as graceful.
 
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Jeanie said:
Was it still gusting to 34 when you got back? Was it the 17kt winds that were the problem? We fly in winds like that out here normally. The students learn that it takes work continuously to keep the plane lined up correctly. Pretty landings are just not possible sometimes but safe ones are. We don't practice if it's over gusting to 24 or so because in the 152 those become simply survival landings for them not much "fun". But they all know how to make landings up to that. And so far they have each experienced a side load which got their attention and not ever done it again. I hate it but they have to learn. And they know that if they break a tire they buy it :).
So, I guess the answer really is : no it's not graceful, it's a little more like a rodeo...
Yeeeee haw
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So it is not just me :D

It was 24G34 but the xwind component was about half that. That is where the 17 comes from. About the same when I got back to KTMB and landed 27L. No big deal as I had just been practicing :)
 
alfadog said:
Yes, that is the point. If I arrive somewhere and ATIS has a 15 kt xwind, what do I do? Can I handle it because I have practiced and know I can or do I divert because I know that it is more than I can handle. Better than needlessly diverting or ignorantly attempting to land without that knowledge or skill. :yikes:
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Ya can't beat practice in honing your flying skills.. I am sure if it felt uncomfortable you would have gone around... Seat time is the ultimate training session.
 
I trained in a Warrior. I had never flown a 172 or any other high wing in my life until the week of my check ride. I went over to Sheble Aviation in AZ to take my ride, they didn't have any low wings. So in four days they taught me to fly a 172.

I bitched and complained, but they said it's like flying any other airplane, not to worry.

It was not at all like any other airplane when it came to landing. I had a heck of a time learning to land that thing. I never did fly it solo, just did not feel at all confident landing a 172, although my instructor over there said I was doing just fine.

I could get three or four landings out of each attempt at one landing. I almost porpoised it into the runway on one of my attempts. Had the instructor not grabbed it, I would have. A few days later when I took my ride, I did everything perfectly. Pure luck as far as I'm concerned.

So no, I don't think I could land a Cessna gracefully in any or no wind unless I was having a really good day. I don't like em, those ugly high wing contraptions with their landing gears made out of springs.


-John
 
Jeanie said:
Was it still gusting to 34 when you got back?
...
Yeeeee haw
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Here is the KTMB METAR from about when I got back:

KTMB 221653Z 25021G35KT 10SM SCT047 BKN055 BKN070 27/17 A2964 RMK AO2 PK WND 26035/1646 SLP037 T02720167

Beautiful day but windy.
 
Wouldn't more ground effect make it worse rather than better?
dmccormack said:
I never had problems in strong winds in an A36. The C205 (Cessna equivalent in some ways) was a bit more work. I think this is due to not as much ground effect and the a higher CG in the Cessna.
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Well gusting to 35 is pretty much an upper limit IMHO ... It's dam*d difficult and then of course you have to taxi back to the hangar with the plane crow hopping too which isn't fun.....
It's good to know that you can do it though like you said in case you get back from a X/C and have to.
 
I think that's the right word and conveys the best method for dealing with this situation. Once the plane is in position to land, it may be bucking to the point that you are too busy with control inputs to touch down immediately. Carrying a bit of power and waiting for the right moment is the key to "making the best lemonade with the lemons you got" on such days, and your job is to ride the bronc until he's too tired to buck. Conversely, if it continues to buck and you get tired first, bail out and find another arena.

OTE=Jeanie;888314]So, I guess the answer really is : no it's not graceful, it's a little more like a rodeo...
Yeeeee haw[/QUOTE]
 
Jeanie said:
Well gusting to 35 is pretty much an upper limit IMHO ... It's dam*d difficult and then of course you have to taxi back to the hangar with the plane crow hopping too which isn't fun.....
It's good to know that you can do it though like you said in case you get back from a X/C and have to.
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I park facing north so that wind was directly on the tail. I got out, said a few words to the fuel truck driver that had just pulled up and by the time I got back to the tiedowns, the wind had pushed the tail two feet over :)
 
Gubbins said:
Isn't that close or at the limit for a 172? If I remember correctly from training the max demonstrated crosswind is 15 knots for a 172.
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There is no "limit", just the maximum they demonstrated during certification, which by regulation need only be 20% of stall speed. Sometimes they do more, sometimes they don't. There are planes which really do have crosswind limits, but those are usually large transports with wings so long they'll drag a nacelle or wingtip if enough bank is used. Generally speaking, production certified light singles can handle a lot more crosswind than the "demonstrated" value, and it's pilot skill which is the true limiting factor. Some pilots can't handle that demonstrated value, and others can handle twice that much -- it's a matter of experience, skill, and proficiency.

As for the original question, it's my personal opinion based on over 40 years of flying 172's now and then that due to their design, they pretty much cannot be landed "gracefully" in any conditions, no less in 21G34, in which I would be working pretty hard to make any kind of decent landing at all in a 172 or anything else, for that matter.
 
Stop by when you're in town. You'll be fine after a little dual from somebody who knows how and is more experienced.

Ron Levy said:
As for the original question, it's my personal opinion based on over 40 years of flying 172's now and then that due to their design, they pretty much cannot be landed "gracefully" in any conditions, no less in 21G34, in which I would be working pretty hard to make any kind of decent landing at all in a 172 or anything else, for that matter.
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When the winds are high enough there is no need for a cross wind. :)

There's no need for grace, just safety.
 
OK, so I am not the only one. I like the rodeo analogy. I was doing this on a 3000' runway and had it down and stopped in about half that even though I had to wait a bit for things to arrange themselves before setting it down. For the first 1/2 hour I did not even bother using the taxiway, just back-taxiied as no-one else was out there. Later an R44 with a CFI and student started doing circuits so I stuck to T&G and one taxi back. Watching the R44 do it after my taxi-back was interesting, crabbed on final and aligning in the hover but not actually touching down. Looked like the student was doing pretty well.
 
I would think the low winged aircraft would be a little more stable in a crosswind landing, especially closer to the ground, since the wing is closer to the ground...?
 
HerrGruyere said:
I would think the low winged aircraft would be a little more stable in a crosswind landing, especially closer to the ground, since the wing is closer to the ground...?
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Your thinking is right. Low wings, at least my Warrior, are a piece of cake to land, even in gusting crosswinds.

-John
 
John Baker said:
I don't like em, those ugly high wing contraptions with their landing gears made out of springs.


-John
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So why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel about Cessna high wings! :D
 
HerrGruyere said:
I would think the low winged aircraft would be a little more stable in a crosswind landing, especially closer to the ground, since the wing is closer to the ground...?
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Not really. It's more a function of overall design than any one feature.
 
Gracefully? eh....

But when I was driving a Cessna, I really preferred wheel landings when the wind picked up - having the mains solidly on the ground before you had to slow down made it a lot easier.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, that is the point. If I arrive somewhere and ATIS has a 15 kt xwind, what do I do? Can I handle it because I have practiced and know I can or do I divert because I know that it is more than I can handle. Better than needlessly diverting or ignorantly attempting to land without that knowledge or skill. :yikes:
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With gusts its difficult to get a pretty landing. Its impossible to time the gusts, though you can sorta predict what is going to happen. If i'm getting kicked around and out of shape in the flare i'll add a little power and wait till things are straightened out - then land.
 
Skylane81E said:
Yes, you can
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This. I can do so, but don't always live up to my expectations. Some days my gusty crosswind landings are good and my landings where the wind is straight down the runway suck. An instructor pal says that is because I focus more when there is a crosswind.:idea:
 
With the way I flew Saturday I can't even land a Cessna in calm wind. Really. I know for a fact I've done crosswinds since January, I just don't remember the details. None were "graceful" and they were in both the 172 (with a CFI) and the 150 (with a non pilot passenger coming home from a long XC).
 
alfadog said:
Yesterday, I took the club 172 up for a bit to do pattern work. My Arrow is still being worked on.

Anyway, it was a windy day here in South Florida. Wind was about 240@24G34. Went down to X51 and did a bunch of T&G's and full stops on RW 28. So I had a 12G17 crosswind component, prolly more at times as the wind direction shifted a bit.

These were not pretty landings. I had less trouble with the full stops than I did the T&G's, prolly due to the nosewheel helpng more. I would not say that I was on the "ragged edge" or "wrestling the airplane" but I was definitely not always able to put the airplane where I wanted it to be and keep it there. If I wanted to land it, I could land it, but at times I could not hold centerline and/or felt and heard the sideloading.

Curious what other folks have experienced in these conditions. I do not really have much reference because I am the only pilot I know that will happily try this kind of stuff :D
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My thinking here is that if I cannot land gracefully, I can go around gracefully and land elsewhere gracefully. Life is too short to go all macho.

:mad2: Just my 2 cents.
 
Winds have been crazy here the past couple of days. Buddy of mine who flies KC-135s texted me that yesterday they had a 33 knot direct crosswind! They diverted to KIND and waited it out. Parked two big tankers with the GA.
 
AuntPeggy said:
My thinking here is that if I cannot land gracefully, I can go around gracefully and land elsewhere gracefully. Life is too short to go all macho.

:mad2: Just my 2 cents.
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There are days when Bob Hoover couldn't put it on gracefully, on those days 'intact' is quite sufficient. After the second go around, either go elsewhere or go for it, third times a charm.
 
Ungraceful, intact, and safe is okay... I've had some ungraceful ones in calm winds, at least the crosswind gives me an excuse...
 
John Baker said:
I trained in a Warrior. I had never flown a 172 or any other high wing in my life until the week of my check ride. I went over to Sheble Aviation in AZ to take my ride, they didn't have any low wings. So in four days they taught me to fly a 172.

I bitched and complained, but they said it's like flying any other airplane, not to worry.

It was not at all like any other airplane when it came to landing. I had a heck of a time learning to land that thing. I never did fly it solo, just did not feel at all confident landing a 172, although my instructor over there said I was doing just fine.

I could get three or four landings out of each attempt at one landing. I almost porpoised it into the runway on one of my attempts. Had the instructor not grabbed it, I would have. A few days later when I took my ride, I did everything perfectly. Pure luck as far as I'm concerned.

So no, I don't think I could land a Cessna gracefully in any or no wind unless I was having a really good day. I don't like em, those ugly high wing contraptions with their landing gears made out of springs.


-John
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I'm guessing they see some pretty "interesting" cases there. On one of my flights during CFI training I screwed up on Steep Turns form the right seat, Lazy 8's, and made one pretty bad landing (A few ok ones) and after we got back into the office the instructor looked me in the eye and said, "I'm impressed. Your flying is excellent for a 400 HR pilot."
 
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