Can you do commercial sight-seeing operations in a light sport aircraft?

[TangoWhiskey]

Can you do commercial sight-seeing operations in a Light Sport Aircraft?

Sure you can--just call it an "introductory flight lesson".

Hey, if it gets more people interested in aviation, and he actually does a lesson (some ground time and then fly), gives them a logbook with instruction and a lead towards where to take more lessons when they get home...

http://www.flythebeach.com/Home_Page.html

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've taken lessons on Kauai in an ultralight while on vacation. I asked my instructor about the sightseeing issue and he explained that the local FSDO keeps a very close eye on the 3-4 similar operations to be satisfied that instruction was in fact taking place and it wasn't merely a sightseeing flight. Obviously, different inspectors might have different degrees of pickiness.

 

[poadeleted20]

Can you? Yes. Would it be legal? No. See 14 CFR 91.327:

Sec. 91.327

Aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category for compensation or hire except-
(1) To tow a glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309 of this chapter; or
(2) To conduct flight training.

...and 91.147 sightseeing rides don't fall under either provision. So, as noted above, you can conduct flight training in it, but as Mark noted, if the FAA catches you doing fake flight training in order to do sight-seeing rides in an LSA, they will eat you for lunch.

 

[James331]

Define LSA, if you're talking a 7AC or something, it's the same as a 172 as far as the Feds are concerned.

 

[Seanaldinho]

I fish the jetties he was flying over often and have seen him flying around for a couple summers now.

Been thinking about going up with him sometime this summer.

 

[Mason]

If it has two seats it isn't a legal "ultralight".

 

[Henning]

Can you? Yes. Would it be legal? No. See 14 CFR 91.327:

...and 91.147 sightseeing rides don't fall under either provision. So, as noted above, you can conduct flight training in it, but as Mark noted, if the FAA catches you doing fake flight training in order to do sight-seeing rides in an LSA, they will eat you for lunch.

Did they not include the "demonstration for sale" verbiage?

 

[poadeleted20]

Did they not include the "demonstration for sale" verbiage?

Who is "they" and what "demonstration for sale" verbiage are you talking about? There is certainly nothing in 91.327 authorizing anyone to collect money from sales prospects for providing a ride in an aircraft with a Special airworthiness certificate in the Light Sport category, or for that matter, nothing in any reg I can find allowing any such collection without a commercial operating certificate or 91.147 LoA even in Standard category aircraft (like the LSA-qualified Champ James mentioned above).

 

[Henning]

Who is "they" and what "demonstration for sale" verbiage are you talking about? There is certainly nothing in 91.327 authorizing anyone to collect money from sales prospects for providing a ride in an aircraft with a Special airworthiness certificate in the Light Sport category, or for that matter, nothing in any reg I can find allowing any such collection without a commercial operating certificate or 91.147 LoA even in Standard category aircraft (like the LSA-qualified Champ James mentioned above).

They is the FAA, and the demonstration for sale verbiage is in several places and is what many of the old 'heavy ultralights' sold rides under in pt 103 as well as how many rides are sold in Experimental Exhibition category at air shows.

 

[poadeleted20]

They is the FAA, and the demonstration for sale verbiage is in several places and is what many of the old 'heavy ultralights' sold rides under in pt 103 as well as how many rides are sold in Experimental Exhibition category at air shows.

Can you show us an example of even one of those "several places" in the regulations? Note that the old "heavy ultralights" were generally illegal before the LSA/SP rules were promulgated, and are completely illegal under Part 103 today.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Who is "they" and what "demonstration for sale" verbiage are you talking about? There is certainly nothing in 91.327 authorizing anyone to collect money from sales prospects for providing a ride in an aircraft with a Special airworthiness certificate in the Light Sport category, or for that matter, nothing in any reg I can find allowing any such collection without a commercial operating certificate or 91.147 LoA even in Standard category aircraft (like the LSA-qualified Champ James mentioned above).

WAG here. There are a few provisions that discuss flight with potential purchasers. I agree with you that none seem to fit the LSA engaged in a sham sight-seeing operation very well, but all one needs is a friendly FSDO willing to look the other way, so I don't doubt Henning that it has taken place.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Define LSA,

I'd go with the FAA's definition in FAR 1.1 for general purposes.

Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than--

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.​

But for the purpose of the issue we are discussing, the rules are more limited than LSAs in general and apply to (using 91.327 as an example)

an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category​

So we are not talking about that J3 Cub.

 

[poadeleted20]

WAG here. There are a few provisions that discuss flight with potential purchasers. I agree with you that none seem to fit the LSA engaged in a sham sight-seeing operation very well, but all one needs is a friendly FSDO willing to look the other way, so I don't doubt Henning that it has taken place.

But even if the local FSDO didn't do anything, I can't find any language in the FAR's allowing anyone to charge for flights with potential purchasers.

 

[docmirror]

Yes.

If it's a legacy aircraft which meets(and has always met) the weight and performance restrictions of the category, but carries a standard A/W cert.

No.

If it's an aircraft with a Light Sport Aircraft A/W cert.

Based on all 3:44 of that video, the 'student' handled the flight controls for 0:14 (14 seconds, roughly). For the other 3:30, the 'student' was taking pictures, looking around the coast, waving, and chatting with the 'instructor'. No audio so I don't know if the chatting with the 'instructor' was training related.

So, it appears that 14 seconds of hands-on during a 3:44 flight is considered qualified 'flight training', cuz I'm pretty sure that plane is not a legacy aircraft with a std A/W cert. But - I could be wrong. Of course, they got a logbook, and some ground discussion.

This statement from the website gives me pause: "The pilot will even let you try to fly if you'd like."

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes.

If it's a legacy aircraft which meets(and has always met) the weight and performance restrictions of the category, but carries a standard A/W cert.

No.

If it's an aircraft with a Light Sport Aircraft A/W cert.

Based on all 3:44 of that video, the 'student' handled the flight controls for 0:14 (14 seconds, roughly). For the other 3:30, the 'student' was taking pictures, looking around the coast, waving, and chatting with the 'instructor'. No audio so I don't know if the chatting with the 'instructor' was training related.

So, it appears that 14 seconds of hands-on during a 3:44 flight is considered qualified 'flight training', cuz I'm pretty sure that plane is not a legacy aircraft with a std A/W cert. But - I could be wrong. Of course, they got a logbook, and some ground discussion.

This statement from the website gives me pause: "The pilot will even let you try to fly if you'd like."

There's a fundamental inconsistency in docmirror's post.


If it's legitimate flight training, you can do it in either a S-LSA or Standard category aircraft, in which case his original "yes in Standard, no in S-LSA" answer is incorrect -- it would be "yes" for both as paid flight training, which is legal in both S-LSA and Standard aircraft but requires the pilot hold a CFI ticket. In fact, if done as flight training in a S-LSA, the pilot would not need any pilot certificate higher than Sport Pilot, but would need a CFI certificate with appropriate rating (CFI-SP with Sport/PP/CP/ATP or CFI-Airplane with CP/ATP).


OTOH, if it's not legitimate flight training, none of his discussion on whether or not it was flight training is relevant, because then it's sightseeing for hire, which cannot be done legally in an S-LSA aircraft no matter what the pilot's qualifications. Further, even if sightseeing for hire is done in a Standard aircraft, a 91.147 LoA from the FSDO is required in addition to the pilot's commercial pilot certificate -- see that reg for the various things you must do to get that letter.


And, of course, none of this is legal in an E-LSA aircraft if the aircraft is provided by the instructor.

 

[docmirror]

There's a fundamental inconsistency in docmirror's post.


If it's legitimate flight training, you can do it in either a S-LSA or Standard category aircraft, in which case his original "yes in Standard, no in S-LSA" answer is incorrect -- it would be "yes" for both as paid flight training, which is legal in both S-LSA and Standard aircraft but requires the pilot hold a CFI ticket. In fact, if done as flight training in a S-LSA, the pilot would not need any pilot certificate higher than Sport Pilot, but would need a CFI certificate with appropriate rating (CFI-SP with Sport/PP/CP/ATP or CFI-Airplane with CP/ATP).


OTOH, if it's not legitimate flight training, none of his discussion on whether or not it was flight training is relevant, because then it's sightseeing for hire, which cannot be done legally in an S-LSA aircraft no matter what the pilot's qualifications. Further, even if sightseeing for hire is done in a Standard aircraft, a 91.147 LoA from the FSDO is required in addition to the pilot's commercial pilot certificate -- see that reg for the various things you must do to get that letter.


And, of course, none of this is legal in an E-LSA aircraft if the aircraft is provided by the instructor.

Yes, add the 'fundamental' S prefixed LSA.

Jeez,,,,