Can student pilot operate airplane with pilot, or only CFI?

Ron Levy said:
You're a CFI. You know what the regulations and the Chief Counsel both say. You can figure it out for yourself.
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I was asking what YOU are saying since you said I was wrong.
 
dmspilot said:
Did you really mean to write that?
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Yes. See the Chief Counsel's 1977 "Beane" letter. Regardless of who's manipulating the controls, if there's only one pilot aboard rated for the aircraft, that pilot can log the time.
A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.
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EdFred said:
My mom likes to go up and do a pinch hitter refresher in my dad's plane. She has no desire to get a certificate and it has never been logged as instruction. (by either myself or the other CFI)

You're saying I have to pay for (at least) half the fuel in the plane every time my mom flies dad's plane since I only have a 3rd class?

Substitute mom for best friend's wife/kid.
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By a strict reading of the rules, yes that is how it works. Realistically your mother isn't gonna complain to the FAA though so it's really kind of a non-issue. The rule is pretty clearly written on this, but it can only be enforced if someone turns you in, so if everyone is happy with the situation there is no situation.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes. See the Chief Counsel's 1977 "Beane" letter. Regardless of who's manipulating the controls, if there's only one pilot aboard rated for the aircraft, that pilot can log the time.
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One can't "see" the 1977 Beene letter, unless you've managed to locate a copy of the original (the original typed letter, not a quote from the text if it; I've been posting that for well more than a decade). Heck, I'd even like to see FAA confirmation of its existence.
 
midlifeflyer said:
One can't "see" the 1977 Beene letter, unless you've managed to locate a copy of the original (the original typed letter, not a quote from the text if it; I've been posting that for well more than a decade). Heck, I'd even like to see FAA confirmation of its existence.
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I queried them about that a few years ago. I sent them a copy of the Word file of the complete text. Their answer was essentially, "We can't find a signed paper copy, but it appears genuine." :dunno: I'll post that full text tonight.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why would that be wrong?
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Because except for the issue of the questionable Beene letter, under 61.51(e) one cannot log PIC time when a student is flying the airplane (thus is not the sole manipulator) unless he or she is a CFI or ATP.

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

[snipped]​

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.​
 
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Ron Levy said:
I queried them about that a few years ago. I sent them a copy of the Word file of the complete text. Their answer was essentially, "We can't find a signed paper copy, but it appears genuine." :dunno: I'll post that full text tonight.
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Oh I can do that.... I've had it for about 20 years. Here it is. I can do a Word doc, even a pdf if you like. (I have a funny feeling the Chief Counsel's office wasn't using Microsoft Word in 1977 :D)

"appears genuine" isn't quite the same as "yes, it is in our database showing it's ours" or even "we don't have it but it's an accurate statement of the rules." Especially since it does not appear in any official or commercial database - not even the $800 set of bound volumes sold to lawyers. I have something similar - I corresponded with Ed Faberman in my effort to track down its authenticity. His comment: "I don't remember it but it sounds like me."


For those interested, here it is.
==============================
June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
==============================
 
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dmspilot said:
Because except for the issue of the questionable Beene letter, under 61.51(e) one cannot log PIC time when a student is flying the airplane (thus is not the sole manipulator) unless he or she is a CFI or ATP.
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Where are you getting the "or ATP" from? :confused: Didn't we already go through that one?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Where are you getting the "or ATP" from? :confused: Didn't we already go through that one?
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It appears "we already went through" whether or not the student can log the time as instruction received when the PIC is an ATP; I wasn't talking about that.

I'm talking about the person who is the acting PIC logging time as PIC when he or she is not the sole manipulator.

The regulations say you can't unless you're a CFI or ATP (or the other exceptions--such as when more than one crewmember is required). This is my answer to Greg's question. However, I concede this is probably not "an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate", so an ATP wouldn't matter either.

This obscure Beene letter says you can log the time if the sole manipulator is not rated, but it to me it seems to be a direct contradiction of the regulations as written.
 
dmspilot said:
This obscure Beene letter says you can log the time if the sole manipulator is not rated, but it to me it seems to be a direct contradiction of the regulations as written.
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Agreed. However, that reading was made because it seemed absurd to old Ed Faberman (a very practically-based individual) that there could be a situation where the plane was being legally flown but nobody could log the time. And as promised, the full text of that letter:
June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
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Check to see if he has flown from the right seat. Quick story....about 20 years ago with only a couple of hundred hours on my PPL I met an old friend I had not seen in a while. He told me he was taking flying lessons and it was going well with about 25 hours into his training. I told him I had my PPL and before long we had scheduled a flight together just for fun. He took the left seat and settled into the right seat for the first time EVER. He took off on the 172 and things looked ok...but not perfect. No worries, he is a student and still learning. After a short flight it was time to land. As soon as we entered the pattern things went downhill in a hurry. Pattern entry was bad, speed was bad, could not maintain altitude, etc. No worries, student pilot, he'll get it together soon...NOT. By the time we turned final I realized I had to take control or it was all going to end very badly. First time from the right seat and I'm on short final with a crosswind. It all felt very awkward from the right seat and I was lucky it worked out. Later learned he had yet to solo!!! I simply assumed that with 25 hours he had solo'd. Lesson Learned...one of many over the next 20 years....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
dmspilot said:
It appears "we already went through" whether or not the student can log the time as instruction received when the PIC is an ATP; I wasn't talking about that.

I'm talking about the person who is the acting PIC logging time as PIC when he or she is not the sole manipulator.

The regulations say you can't unless you're a CFI or ATP (or the other exceptions--such as when more than one crewmember is required). This is my answer to Greg's question. However, I concede this is probably not "an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate", so an ATP wouldn't matter either.
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That's why I was wondering where you got the "or ATP." Last time I checked, flying a single-engine piston was not an operation requiring an ATP, even if you let another pilot or a student pilot or Aunt Bertha who has never been in an airplane, do the flying. :D

This obscure Beene letter says you can log the time if the sole manipulator is not rated, but it to me it seems to be a direct contradiction of the regulations as written.
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Yeah, but have you read the story about how the Beane letter came about?

==============================
The Unofficial, Unvarnished, and Totally Made-Up Truth About the Beane "Only Rated Pilot On Board" Opinion​
(The names have been changed to protect the innocent and guilty alike)

One day the lawyers at the FAA went out drinking after work and started talking about the logging rules (hey, they're lawyers; you were expecting them to talk about something interesting?). One of them said, call him Joe, said, "Can a pilot log PIC time if he lets his dog fly the airplane?"

Betty, who was a real stickler for strict readings, replied, "No. Since the dog had its paws on the controls, the pilot wasn't the 'sole manipulator of the controls.' So he can't log anything."

Peter rolled his eyes and said, "I know these rules are a bit convoluted, but really! That is the stupidest thing I ever heard! OF COURSE the pilot can log the flight! He's the ONLY ONE who can!"

"So what?" said Betty. That's what the reg says!"

"Oh BULL!" he said, "The guys who wrote 61.51 couldn't cover EVERY possible situation. A flight in which NO ONE can log PIC is ridiculous.

Fortunately, in addition to being sensible, Peter really knew his stuff. "There's a rule of law that's been around for a long, long time. It applies to both statutes and regulations." Peter continued, "'An interpretation that would lead to an absurd or unreasonable result should be avoided.' A flight on which NO ONE can log PIC is absurd."

The others had to agree.
======================n========
 
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Ron Levy said:
Agreed. However, that reading was made because it seemed absurd to old Ed Faberman (a very practically-based individual) that there could be a situation where the plane was being legally flown but nobody could log the time. And as promised, the full text of that letter:
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Hey! You copied mine, right down to my formatting and italics! I doubt from the previous page but perhaps when I posted it here about 8 years ago (I first came across it on Usenet in 2002) and you questioned it's authenticity? :D
 
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ejensen said:
I did some right seat flying. Took 3 or 4 landing to get the new sight picture down. Instructor never had to help but they weren't pretty.
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I landed my plane today for the first time from the right seat. Three times. It was interesting and more difficult than I would have imagined. I did okay but it certainly wasn't pretty.
 
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