Can somebody explain to me the general disdain for SP?

pilot_dude said:
Let's get down to brass tacks (IMHO) on the reason for disdain as you put it;
the pilot population demographic is a bunch of 40-60 year old folks who walked two miles to school, up hill both ways, in the snow, and think you should do the same. Anything less is taking the "easy way out" in their opinion. As one who fits that demographic, I call bravo scat. Go fly whatever makes your cheeks sore from smiling too much (is there such a thing?).
Click to expand...
Yup. Damn them SPs being able to call themselves pilots, they didn't even fly in the war.
 
RJM62 said:
I think you may be wrong about not being able to get a Third-Class. I suggest you hop over to the Medical forums and ask Dr. Bruce about it.

As for the training, you can train for pretty much whatever you like with a CFI next to you. Training and exercising privileges are two different things.

-Rich
Click to expand...

Hi Rich - I will head right over! Thanks for the input.

But yaeh - worse case, I'll train and learn.. Never gonna hurt ya to keep learning.. Thanks again!
 
SP = fair weather one hr flying in morning and evening staying with a few miles from home airport.

This is the bare bones SP and how all the folks in my world whom fly these little airplanes fly.

Anything else is left to the PP
 
Check the 'Lawsuit Madness' thread, there's an example that starts to illustrate the issues arguably from both sides. You have a person that has issues and may or may not be able to attain a medical, sought out the route that required minimum personal effort to educate himself, and may arguably have had inadequate training.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64383
 
Last edited:
pilot_dude said:
Let's get down to brass tacks (IMHO) on the reason for disdain as you put it;
the pilot population demographic is a bunch of 40-60 year old folks who walked two miles to school, up hill both ways, in the snow, and think you should do the same. Anything less is taking the "easy way out" in their opinion. As one who fits that demographic, I call bovine scat. Go fly whatever makes your cheeks sore from smiling too much (is there such a thing?).
Click to expand...

You built a beautiful straw man and just knocked him down.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Yup. Damn them SPs being able to call themselves pilots, they didn't even fly in the war.
Click to expand...

The eye rolling is at the regulation, not the pilots. It threw a bone to people who couldn't get medicals. IMHO, this was a disservice. The collective traded a little instant gratification for more bureaucracy that comes with long term consequences. Good luck with that CDL only to fly a Cessna 150, the SPL industry will fight that one and the FAA will shrug and say "Whaa? You can fly a SkyCatcher?"

Hardly anyone (I hesitate to say no one, but it's probably close) "wants" an SPL in lieu of a PPL. Read the stale thread add on a few posts above for an idea why I roll my eyes at the SPL regs. Oh he's fine in a deadly unplacarded CTSW with 3 gallons of fuel, but he'd be terror in the skies in a Cherokee 140. :rolleyes:
 
1600vw said:
SP = fair weather one hr flying in morning and evening staying with a few miles from home airport.

This is the bare bones SP and how all the folks in my world whom fly these little airplanes fly.

Anything else is left to the PP
Click to expand...

Great for the pilots in your world if that's all they want to do, but most ofl the Sport pilots I know do alot more with it than that. They're taking vacations, LONG cross countries, and advanced training in new, well equipped aircraft.
 
maddog52 said:
Great for the pilots in your world if that's all they want to do, but most ofl the Sport pilots I know do alot more with it than that. They're taking vacations, LONG cross countries, and advanced training in new, well equipped aircraft.
Click to expand...


Yes this is the great thing about SP. Covers a wide range of pilots. Its just we have some whom want to shove the complete ticket down ones throat instead of giving one a chance to take it a slice at a time.
Then you have those whom believe everyone flying SP have a Glass cockpit and a 100 grand airplane and need a class C endorsement.
Then some fly 4-6K airplanes on the SP certificate never seeing class c airspace.
 
EminiTrader said:
Well here's my brief story.

In short, I simply can't get a 3rd class medical as I have one lazy eye. This has haunted me a long time. Back when I was 19 (before CDL licenses) I wanted to drive semi's -back then I got away with it - with the eye. When CDL came out (around 1992) the physicals were "really" being performed. I had to get a eye test waiver. I successfully drove 1.5 million miles, accident free.

Finally at 27 years of age, I smartened up and left the industry - and I have been doing what I do know ever since (16 years or so)

Now that I am more "financially sound" I wanted to once again learn to fly - but the medical came up....

The SP is all I can get.

But couple things:
1) I dont feel there was enough training time. In fact, because of the govt shut down, I cant take my written (I am actually prepping for checkride). But I have so far done an additional 4 hours of solo work - 1 small cross/country - and pattern work. I plan on doing this 2 - 3 hours a week until the govt is re-open -which will more than likely be this week.

2)I agree that the PPL gives you more options, and more training. I would do it if I could. But I can't... well, so I thought. Talked to my CFI - and while I can never get checked out for PP (under current law) I CAN Train for PP.

My attitude is - learn, learn, and learn some more. So I am happily going to pay to get my PPL - even though i'll actually never probably get my PPL - at least i'll have the training.

So in a few months from now, if all goes well, i'll be flying around in my little LSA plane... having fun - when the weather is right. It's not everything I wanted, but at the end of the day - at least I can fly.

And I was reading a post earlier in this thread about getting stuck above a low ceiling all the way to Kansas (not sure if you said "stuck" - probably not). And that's something that has always scared me a bit:

"WHAT IF..... i some how roam into IFR, or what if overcast at 1000 feet and i'm above it"... I won't be legal - but I'll have the training, at least, to deal with it....

So that's my 2 cents.. I know, I know, I'm brand new and I have so much to learn... I get it, but I am willing!!
Click to expand...


Didn't realize the " lazy eye" was disqualifying. I flew with an ATP rated copilot who had that condition, he maintained a First Class Medical.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Didn't realize the " lazy eye" was disqualifying. I flew with an ATP rated copilot who had that condition, he maintained a First Class Medical.
Click to expand...

Had a pilot in my AF squadron on flight status with a lazy eye. His nick name was "Track While Scan". One flight surgeon finally grounded him until it was corrected.
 
EminiTrader said:
In short, I simply can't get a 3rd class medical as I have one lazy eye.
Click to expand...

RJM62 said:
I think you may be wrong about not being able to get a Third-Class.
Click to expand...

That "I think you may be wrong" needs to be changed to "You are wrong".

EminiTrader, there are no visual fusion tests in the 3rd class medical. There are such tests in the 1st and 2nd class, but not 3rd class. I know one can pass a 3rd class medical with this problem because I suffered from lazy eye/strabismus since at least my early teens. When I had enough money I had surgery to straighten the eyes, but for the purpose of visual fusion it was considered a cosmetic surgery (not paid for by insurance; several thousand out of my pocket.)

I think that the only thing you may need to be wary of with respect to vision tests is section 67.303(d) of the regs, which doesn't seem likely to be an issue for you, given you had a CDL.

I don't think there is anything special you need from Dr. Bruce other than confirmation or correction/clarification of the above information.

Lastly, a book I would suggest to others with lazy/crossed eyes is "Fixing My Gaze: A Scientist's Journey Into Seeing in Three Dimensions." by Susan R. Barry.
 
1600vw said:
SP = fair weather one hr flying in morning and evening staying with a few miles from home airport.

This is the bare bones SP and how all the folks in my world whom fly these little airplanes fly.

Anything else is left to the PP
Click to expand...

Not sure which people you are associating with, but I have a PiperSport (SportCruiser) that I average over 200 hours per year in. While afternoon flying can be bumpy in the plane, it is not limited to morning and evening flying. Cross-country flying is not a problem at all. Cruise is 117 knots and I can fly 4.5 hours with vfr reserves. My typical flight is between 2-4 hours one way.

I have a private certificate with a 3rd class medical but chose to go with a new plane for several reasons. Newer technology, and my wife was more than happy for us to get a plane that she could land (parachute) if I was incapacitated. This plane is not limited to a few hours in the day.

I know many owners of the same model plane that fly cross country at all times of the day (and night for those with PP).
 
dnhill said:
Not sure which people you are associating with, but I have a PiperSport (SportCruiser) that I average over 200 hours per year in. While afternoon flying can be bumpy in the plane, it is not limited to morning and evening flying. Cross-country flying is not a problem at all. Cruise is 117 knots and I can fly 4.5 hours with vfr reserves. My typical flight is between 2-4 hours one way.

I have a private certificate with a 3rd class medical but chose to go with a new plane for several reasons. Newer technology, and my wife was more than happy for us to get a plane that she could land (parachute) if I was incapacitated. This plane is not limited to a few hours in the day.

I know many owners of the same model plane that fly cross country at all times of the day (and night for those with PP).
Click to expand...


Not with the types you just spelled out.

We all fly single seat EAB's that average around 60 on the ASI. Staying in one of these for an hr is about all our old bones can take.

We have a group here that fly just what I speak. If this was Canada we would be flying Ultralights but here we have what we have.

Not everyone wants to go 100+, also not everyone can stay in a car for an hr let alone set in a cramped airplane for over an hr.

We fly to get away from earth and all that comes with being on the ground. Its nice just to be in the air. Maybe we will fly to a friends place or another close by strip for a meal but it better be within an hr or we do not go.

That is the SP world on the cheap, so to speak. We fly planes in the 5-10K price range, you paid more then that for your PP certificate.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Check the 'Lawsuit Madness' thread, there's an example that starts to illustrate the issues arguably from both sides. You have a person that has issues and may or may not be able to attain a medical, sought out the route that required minimum personal effort to educate himself, and may arguably have had inadequate training.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64383
Click to expand...

I think the only issue with that gentleman is stupidity. he is well-known and a Pariah in the sport pilot community. He is NOT representative in any way of the typical SP.
 
bullwinkle said:
I think the only issue with that gentleman is stupidity. he is well-known and a Pariah in the sport pilot community. He is NOT representative in any way of the typical SP.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the greatest representation of people operating under SP are people who cannot attain a medical, and I am fine with that, I have no disdain there (many hold a PP from what I hear) Where I have disdain is with the people who think SP is the way to go 'because it's easier and cheaper' neither of which are particularly true, but show a hazardous mind set and decision making process which in aviation leads to accidents.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the greatest representation of people operating under SP are people who cannot attain a medical, and I am fine with that, I have no disdain there (many hold a PP from what I hear) Where I have disdain is with the people who think SP is the way to go 'because it's easier and cheaper' neither of which are particularly true, but show a hazardous mind set and decision making process which in aviation leads to accidents.
Click to expand...

I generally agree, but I know of very few SPs that went for that cert to cut corners over PP. Most realize that it's false economy because the availability and pricing of SP-legal airplanes often exceeds certified airplanes. For what I paid for my CTSW, I could have a very capable and fast older certified airplane. Assuming the SP rules survive, this price delta will go down over time as depreciation works it's magic.

I my own case, I worked with Dr. Chien, and he figured an 80% chance I could get a medical. I didn't want to take the chance of not getting to fly anything larger than part 103 stuff, so I opted to go SP. Since I have, I actually find I kind of like it...it is a fun challenge to get everything done within the weight and speed constraints, and I love that I never have to worry about the horrific medical hassles I read about here.

What is annoying is the attitude many have that we are somehow lesser aviators, don't take our flying as seriously, or are not as proficient as any other VFR pilot just because of the certificate we hold. I see a lot of PPs whose flying scares me, in about the same percentages as SPs that it have encountered.
 
I think part of the problem with sport pilot instruction is that the first crop of sport pilot instructors and DPE's came mostly from the ranks of ultralight instructors. My first instructor was one of those. He didn't hesitate to slam CFII's and training in 150's, saying that he "trained to a higher standard level" than they did. And he didn't know how to do VFR flight following or teach the endorsement for controlled field operations. And I didn't know any better and wasted about 3 AMU on him before calling BS.
 
Henning said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the greatest representation of people operating under SP are people who cannot attain a medical, and I am fine with that, I have no disdain there (many hold a PP from what I hear) Where I have disdain is with the people who think SP is the way to go 'because it's easier and cheaper' neither of which are particularly true, but show a hazardous mind set and decision making process which in aviation leads to accidents.
Click to expand...


+1

The SP brings in those who have concerns with the medical, many of which flew as a PPL, CPL, etc before falling back to SP rules, this is fine with me.


Next aspect to the SP, are those who go this route to save money or time compared to a PPL, this is the part most pilots take issue with and rightfully so.
 
ChitDisturber said:
+1

The SP brings in those who have concerns with the medical, many of which flew as a PPL, CPL, etc before falling back to SP rules, this is fine with me.


Next aspect to the SP, are those who go this route to save money or time compared to a PPL, this is the part most pilots take issue with and rightfully so.
Click to expand...

+2... Save time, money, and reduced training.
 
bartmc said:
We're on page 8. Can you find a post that condemns Sport Pilots?
Click to expand...

Does this work?

NineThreeKilo said:
Give us your tired, your incompetent, your sickly, your under-trained and let them go fourth into the skies, as the majestic dodo birds they were meant to be!

AAANNNDD who will help make the new generation of sportie pilots

Oh wow, isnt that great, god forbid the trainers of these people have to spend some time and money on their own training.


After reading that article, I really do not want to share my skys with that demographic...... all I can say is wow
Click to expand...
 
Henning said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the greatest representation of people operating under SP are people who cannot attain a medical, and I am fine with that, I have no disdain there (many hold a PP from what I hear) Where I have disdain is with the people who think SP is the way to go 'because it's easier and cheaper' neither of which are particularly true, but show a hazardous mind set and decision making process which in aviation leads to accidents.
Click to expand...

I happen to think it's natural to be drawn to the shortest distance to a goal. I wonder how many PPL candidates would pursue it if the required hours were 80 or 100 instead of 35 or 40, although for many, that's what it takes? I've read posts on this site from Pilots bragging on how soon they soloed or how they got their PPL in the minimum required hours. I think if the mission fits and the person can fly the plane, it's no different for a Sports Pilot achieving his or her goal in the least amount of hours. As you point out, most won't meet their goal in the minimum hours, but it's nice to have the option to. As far as being irresponsible and endangering self and others by ignoring or avoiding the medical issues that keep some of us from doing what we love, Private Pilots who are "current" but not healthy enough to fly cross this line every day and it's not good for GA. That has very little to do with the rating.
 
SoloEqs said:
Don't sweat it -- someday most of the guys who are condemning SPs will BECOME SPs.

. . .or PASSENGERS . . .
Click to expand...

I'm thinking that if I lose enough weight to be able to take dual instruction in a light sport aircraft, then the potential medical issues that could force that decision might be a lot less likely! (I might still like to try them, though.)
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm thinking that if I lose enough weight to be able to take dual instruction in a light sport aircraft, then the potential medical issues that could force that decision might be a lot less likely! (I might still like to try them, though.)
Click to expand...

Exactly.

As soon as I lost enough weight to carry me, my wife, full tanks and luggage, my BP went from yellow to green.
 
RJM62 said:
There's a lot of difference in the skill set needed to perform an annual "condition inspection" on a CT, Thorpedo, Tecnam Sierra, ICON A5 etc. as opposed to a Quicksilver MXL, Titan Tornado, Kolb MKII, etc.
Click to expand...
All of your examples in the first group are actually certified airplanes in other countries (except A5 which does not yet exist). Sierra is in fact certified for IFR, which is why it comes with a standby alternator. No wonder their maintenance regime is like that of a certified airplane.

Edit: even better example is Sky Arrow, which is sold in the U.S. as both S-LSA and Part 23 airplane. It's the same plane, only you get to pay more for a white paper than for a pink one.
 
Last edited:
Old Geek said:
As soon as I lost enough weight to carry me, my wife, full tanks and luggage, my BP went from yellow to green.
Click to expand...
I was to that tango before. Just as soon as I started thinking that I might as well keep extending my 3rd Class, they denied me for some random issue with urine. That's when I said "F*** this s***". It's not that I cannot hold 3rd class, but why bother? I'm not a commercial pilot, I fly for fun. I don't _have_ to do this.
 
valittu said:
I happen to think it's natural to be drawn to the shortest distance to a goal. I wonder how many PPL candidates would pursue it if the required hours were 80 or 100 instead of 35 or 40, although for many, that's what it takes? I've read posts on this site from Pilots bragging on how soon they soloed or how they got their PPL in the minimum required hours. I think if the mission fits and the person can fly the plane, it's no different for a Sports Pilot achieving his or her goal in the least amount of hours. As you point out, most won't meet their goal in the minimum hours, but it's nice to have the option to. As far as being irresponsible and endangering self and others by ignoring or avoiding the medical issues that keep some of us from doing what we love, Private Pilots who are "current" but not healthy enough to fly cross this line every day and it's not good for GA. That has very little to do with the rating.
Click to expand...

I know quite a few that took 100 hrs, a couple that took 100hrs to solo, but they were really good pilots, just scared, they were the opposite end of the spectrum. Here's the thing, most people understand full well how much dedication it takes towards knowledge and developing skills and senses to do this safely, that's why the vast majority of people do not want to be pilots, and most those who do who qualify for the medical get a PP and an IR minimum. It's the percentage that are look for the easy way that get themselves into trouble.
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
I'm thinking that if I lose enough weight to be able to take dual instruction in a light sport aircraft, then the potential medical issues that could force that decision might be a lot less likely! (I might still like to try them, though.)
Click to expand...

Being healthy is also better, but there are a lot of fairly healthy PPs out there who have driver's licenses but decided they'd better let their medicals expire rather than fail them over some little thing.

They're Sport Pilots.

The ones who chanced it and failed the medical are not SPs, they're passengers.
 
Damn substandard standards. SPs aren't real pilots nor are all the newbie PPs that didn't have to do a solo 300 NM cross country before GPS was invented.:D
 
Henning said:
I know quite a few that took 100 hrs, a couple that took 100hrs to solo, but they were really good pilots, just scared, they were the opposite end of the spectrum. Here's the thing, most people understand full well how much dedication it takes towards knowledge and developing skills and senses to do this safely, that's why the vast majority of people do not want to be pilots, and most those who do who qualify for the medical get a PP and an IR minimum. It's the percentage that are look for the easy way that get themselves into trouble.
Click to expand...

I understand your point. I've just never once heard a person say they were pursuing Sport Pilot because it was easier. I can only assume they're out there. For me, Sport Pilot provides access, and there happens to be less requirements but that won't prevent me from training beyond the minimums. Personally, as many "legitimate" Pilots I've read about who've killed themselves flying VFR into IMC after having the full Private Pilot license and the required instrument hours, I'd be a fool not to train under the hood although marginal weather is off limits. That's weird to me anyway. I don't really see why anyone would want permission to fly in marginal weather. I will also learn to fly at night although it's not allowed, if I'm ever in a situation where twilight can't be avoided, I will have the confidence to land the plane. I like to be prepared. You can find pilots in all phases of certification that are less prepared and even less vigilant. I've read my share of questions by certified Private Pilots that made me wonder how they passed a check ride not knowing the answer. I'm always surprised by how far some get knowing so little.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top