Can somebody explain to me the general disdain for SP?

Silvaire said:
This is the point I keep trying to make with you without success; raising the LSA MTOW standard isn't going to bring those aircraft under any "umbrella". Other than a person with a Sport Pilot certificate being allowed to fly them, absolutely nothing else would change. They wouldn't get Special Airworthiness Certificates, you wouldn't be able to slap a Dynon EFIS in one and attending a 120 hour LSRM course would be a complete waste of time.

I happen to own a couple of aircraft that are in this category and although I'm not against the raising of the weight limit I believe the real solution is to eliminate the third class medical.
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SoloEqs said:
You don't HAVE a point -- you're splitting hairs.

I'm talking about flying, and you're talking about terminology.
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Is Silvaire confusing Sport Pilot flying privileges with Experimental Light Sport maintenance privileges? :dunno:

Being able to fly a Cessna 150 under Sport Pilot rules wouldn't in any way change it's certification standards.
 
LandSickness said:
Is Silvaire confusing Sport Pilot flying privileges with Experimental Light Sport maintenance privileges? :dunno:

Being able to fly a Cessna 150 under Sport Pilot rules wouldn't in any way change it's certification standards.
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No, he is pointing out that "true" LSAs (certificated SLSA) have different maintenance, alteration and certification standards than SP eligible planes with normal airworthiness certificates.
 
Skylane81E said:
No, he is pointing out that "true" LSAs (certificated SLSA) have different maintenance, alteration and certification standards than SP eligible planes with normal airworthiness certificates.
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Now close your eyes and imagine me backing out of an argument I had no business jumping into in the first place. :D
 
SoloEqs said:
You don't HAVE a point -- you're splitting hairs.

I'm talking about flying, and you're talking about terminology.
Click to expand...

You are the one who said in post #112

what it would help would be to bring tens of thousands of Cessnas, Ercoupes, Airknockers, T-craft, etc under the LSA umbrella, where they belong.
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I'm simply pointing out that there ain't no "LSA umbrella"
 
The biggest problem with the Sport Pilot designation is that the FAA spent more time defining what you can't fly as opposed to how you can't fly. Their intentions to reign in the ultralight crowd are obvious.
 
SoloEqs said:
And I am amused by your implication that ULers aren't pilots.
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Well they are not pilots, as ultralights are not considered aircraft (no C of A), hence no license needed, thus UL operators are NOT PILOTS.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Good lord that is dumb.
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Then write a letter to the FAA about it, a UL is a "vehicle" not an aircraft.

What's next? Hey I used to fly RC airplanes as a kid, I never called myself a pilot!


Look

If you don't pass the bar you're not called a lawyer
If you don't get your doctorate you're not called doctor
IF YOU DON'T HOLD A VALID PILOTS LICENSE, YOU'RE NOT CALLED A PILOT
 
Sam Clemens was a Pilot and they didn't even have aircraft back then.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
I did the sport as a way to get to fly with a passenger sooner than PPL.
I was able to fly my bride around just past 24 hours instruction.
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And that's a great reason to do the SP first.

I trained in a Piper Sport, what a great machine. I was saddened when I heard the partnership fell,apart and it was not going to be made any longer.
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They're still being made, they just aren't called PiperSports any more - They're back to being SportCruisers, just like they were before the Piper partnership. http://www.czechsportaircraft.com/sportcruiser.html
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Then write a letter to the FAA about it, a UL is a "vehicle" not an aircraft.

What's next? Hey I used to fly RC airplanes as a kid, I never called myself a pilot!


Look

If you don't pass the bar you're not called a lawyer
If you don't get your doctorate you're not called doctor
IF YOU DON'T HOLD A VALID PILOTS LICENSE, YOU'RE NOT CALLED A PILOT
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You are mixing up actions with gov't issued pieces of paper. Piloting something through the air makes one a pilot. That is separate from having a plastic card or paperwork from the gov't.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Don't see any reason for it. If your saving costs you can have more freedom as a 15 hr student who has soloed and cross country and have a few airport sign offs than you get for the 25 hrs Sport pilot certificate.
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Tony,

I think you're confusing the Sport and Recreational pilot certificates. A Sport Pilot can do almost anything a Private Pilot can as long as it's in an LSA, whereas a Recreational pilot is very restricted in where they can go.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Then write a letter to the FAA about it, a UL is a "vehicle" not an aircraft.

What's next? Hey I used to fly RC airplanes as a kid, I never called myself a pilot!


Look

If you don't pass the bar you're not called a lawyer
If you don't get your doctorate you're not called doctor
IF YOU DON'T HOLD A VALID PILOTS LICENSE, YOU'RE NOT CALLED A PILOT
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Now you've gone and painted yourself into a corner there, Webster. I have a friend who grew up on a farm and regularly drove the family truck since he was about 11. He didn't hold a license to drive, but he was a driver for certain. I would imagine there are probably more than a few crop dusters who would disagree with you, and some could probably out fly some of us licensed Pilots.
 
I guess I will enter the fray as it were :) As a sport pilot with 300 hours total time, owner of a LSA (Aero AT-4/Gobosh 700) and builder of a Vans RV-12, I have some opinions on the value of the SP certificate. I agree there are some things I can't do as a SP. I don't want to fly at night, I don't have a VOR receiver in my aircraft (but do have a Garmin 796), I don't want to fly when conditions are marginal. I did all my training with a CFII who had a couple thousand hours training in the LSA I learned in. She was and is an awesome pilot. I am not precluded from pursuing further training if I choose. I cannot get my instrument ticket but I can if I choose do instrument training.

I and my wife and friends fly longer cross countries in my S-LSA. I have flown it from Colorado Springs to Sebring round trip solo, to Oshkosh in my plane twice and another Gobosh a third time, as well as several other longer cross country flights. You can go cross country in these planes.

I have seen folks who are very experienced have issues flying LSA's. I have also seen those with lesser experience have issues flying LSA's. I have seen the same in part 23 heavier planes. I have flown dual in heavier planes and had no issues after getting used to the differences in the plane. My favorite experience so far has been to go to Alaska and take a bush pilot class flying a Piper Tri-Pacer converted to tailwheel. It took me about 20 minutes to get the feel for the plane that was more rudder driven than my LSA. On the second day I landed this plane on a gravel bar in the middle of a river. The point is not that I have some super piloting skills, I certainly don't. I just want to make the point that someone holding a SP certificate can do many of the same things a PP can do.

Which certificate a pilot holds is ultimately their decision and is a personal one. I love the freedom my SP certificate has given me.

Carl
 
valittu said:
Now you've gone and painted yourself into a corner there, Webster. I have a friend who grew up on a farm and regularly drove the family truck since he was about 11. He didn't hold a license to drive, but he was a driver for certain. I would imagine there are probably more than a few crop dusters who would disagree with you, and some could probably out fly some of us licensed Pilots.
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Highly doubt there are many of those unlicensed AG guys now days, especially flying turbines, also AG has changed a bit, try getting a serious AG job without a ticket, try getting insurance without it, fly without a ticket and without insurance get a drift claim or something and have fun.

If I represent myself in court, can I call myself a lawyer from then on?

You're not a UL "pilot", you are just a guy who is flying a UL.

Hey call yourself Capt Bob MD, MBA, PHD Esq for all I care, youre just going sound a little stupid when you say that to someone who actually holds that title/certificate/etc
 
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NineThreeKilo said:
Highly doubt there are many of those unlicensed AG guys now days, especially flying turbines, also AG has changed a bit, try getting a serious AG job without a ticket, try getting insurance without it, fly without a ticket and without insurance get a drift claim or something and have fun.

If I represent myself in court, can I call myself a lawyer from then on?

You're not a UL "pilot", you are just a guy who is flying a UL.

Hey call yourself Capt Bob MD, MBA, PHD Esq for all I care, youre just going sound a little stupid when you say that to someone who actually holds that title/certificate/etc
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I am either in semantic hell or you suffer from a sever case of short term memory loss. Do you not pilot an ultralight? Why insult ultralight Pilots by saying they're not Pilots? That's the kind of Pilot elitism that I see from time to time that prompted my initial questions in this thread.
 
valittu said:
I am either in semantic hell or you suffer from a sever case of short term memory loss. Do you not pilot an ultralight? Why insult ultralight Pilots by saying they're not Pilots? That's the kind of Pilot elitism that I see from time to time that prompted my initial questions in this thread.
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It's not being eltite, if you don't have a pilots license you're not a "pilot" anymore then I am a lawyer when I take someone to small claims.

If it's that important for you to call yourself a pilot, go find a local CFI and earn your ticket.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Then write a letter to the FAA about it, a UL is a "vehicle" not an aircraft.

What's next? Hey I used to fly RC airplanes as a kid, I never called myself a pilot!


Look

If you don't pass the bar you're not called a lawyer
If you don't get your doctorate you're not called doctor
IF YOU DON'T HOLD A VALID PILOTS LICENSE, YOU'RE NOT CALLED A PILOT
Click to expand...

Dude, that's pretty anal. Were you toilet-trained at gunpoint?

There's such a thing as a "colloquialism." They called me "doc" when I was in the service. I never set foot in a med school.

-Rich
 
NineThreeKilo said:
It's not being eltite, if you don't have a pilots license you're not a "pilot" anymore then I am a lawyer when I take someone to small claims.
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That's a really stupid comparison.

However, to follow your definition, that means that there were no pilots until 1927, because there were no licenses issued until then.

The Red Baron wasn't a pilot, and neither were any of the men he shot down, nor were Immelman, Lufberry or Boelke.

Ormand Locklear wasn't a pilot.

Luke AFB is named after a guy who wasn't a pilot.

When Charles Lindbergh flew to Paris, he wasn't a pilot (he got his license in 1928), and when Richard Byrd flew to the North Pole, he wasn't a pilot either.

Wilbur Wright wasn't a pilot, nor was Glenn Curtiss. Orville Wright wasn't a pilot until after he stopped flying.

None of those guys were pilots, but YOU are a pilot, because you have a little card from the government that says so?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
 
Which certificate a pilot holds is ultimately their decision and is a personal one. I love the freedom my SP certificate has given me.
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You go, Carl! That was my point a while back :).

And, I think there are a lot of pilots driving riverboats up and down the Mississippi a couple of miles from my house :).
 
Rumor has it that there are a large number of uncertificated pilots in Alaska.
 
Palmpilot said:
Rumor has it that there are a large number of uncertificated pilots in Alaska.
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no, no you haven't been paying attention those aircraft control manipulators are not pilots. No card, no pilot. :lol:
 
somorris said:
You go, Carl! That was my point a while back :).

And, I think there are a lot of pilots driving riverboats up and down the Mississippi a couple of miles from my house :).
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Those pilots also hold a license though, and if you think the test to pilot an aircraft is tough, it ain't nothin...
 
SportPilotCO said:
I guess I will enter the fray as it were :) As a sport pilot with 300 hours total time, owner of a LSA (Aero AT-4/Gobosh 700) and builder of a Vans RV-12, I have some opinions on the value of the SP certificate. I agree there are some things I can't do as a SP. I don't want to fly at night, I don't have a VOR receiver in my aircraft (but do have a Garmin 796), I don't want to fly when conditions are marginal. I did all my training with a CFII who had a couple thousand hours training in the LSA I learned in. She was and is an awesome pilot. I am not precluded from pursuing further training if I choose. I cannot get my instrument ticket but I can if I choose do instrument training.

I and my wife and friends fly longer cross countries in my S-LSA. I have flown it from Colorado Springs to Sebring round trip solo, to Oshkosh in my plane twice and another Gobosh a third time, as well as several other longer cross country flights. You can go cross country in these planes.

I have seen folks who are very experienced have issues flying LSA's. I have also seen those with lesser experience have issues flying LSA's. I have seen the same in part 23 heavier planes. I have flown dual in heavier planes and had no issues after getting used to the differences in the plane. My favorite experience so far has been to go to Alaska and take a bush pilot class flying a Piper Tri-Pacer converted to tailwheel. It took me about 20 minutes to get the feel for the plane that was more rudder driven than my LSA. On the second day I landed this plane on a gravel bar in the middle of a river. The point is not that I have some super piloting skills, I certainly don't. I just want to make the point that someone holding a SP certificate can do many of the same things a PP can do.

Which certificate a pilot holds is ultimately their decision and is a personal one. I love the freedom my SP certificate has given me.

Carl
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Best post of the thread. It's all about enjoying flight.
 
Second that on a great post,that's what it's all about the joy of flying,no matter what you fly.
 
Today, I stopped in by Nassau Flyers at FRG with a friend while doing errands and I inquired about Nassau Flyers sport pilot curriculum. The CFI told me that he recommended me going for my private pilot certificate rather than sport pilot because of less restrictions but after explaining my trouble in the likelihood of not getting a medical, he did suggest looking through all of my options on if I can get my medical like consulting AOPA before making a decision on whether to go for private or sport. He also told me that there is no student in the sport pilot curriculum and they only have a Tecnam Eaglet for training (and that is at the same rental price I would pay for the Skycatcher back at Lincoln Park!). IIRC, the only pilots who use the Eaglet LSA are PPLs who step down to sport pilot privileges.
 
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N918KT said:
Today, I stopped in by Nassau Flyers at FRG with a friend while doing errands and I inquired about Nassau Flyers sport pilot curriculum. The CFI told me that he recommended me going for my private pilot certificate rather than sport pilot because of less restrictions but after explaining my trouble in the likelihood of not getting a medical, he did suggest looking through all of my options on if I can get my medical like consulting AOPA before making a decision on whether to go for private or sport. He also told me that there is no student in the sport pilot curriculum and they only have a Tecnam Eaglet for training (and that is at the same rental price I would pay for the Skycatcher back at Lincoln Park!). IIRC, the only pilots who use the Eaglet LSA are PPLs who step down to sport pilot privileges.
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IIRC from the red board and the advice Dr. B gave. I would stick with SPL if I were you. You lose that option when you get rejected for the medical. It sucks but it is what it is.
 
Don't worry Bart, I know I'm sticking to sport pilot. To be honest, I was a little bit offended when he said that I should go for private pilot. Shows that the flight school is not dedicated to sport pilot, even when they have an LSA and a program in place.
 
N918KT said:
Shows that the flight school is not dedicated to sport pilot, even when they have an LSA and a program in place.
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To be fair, unless you know that SP is all you will ever do, adding the extra training for PPL doesn't cost much more, opens up many options for planes, and probably makes you a slightly safer / more alert pilot.
 
warthog1984 said:
To be fair, unless you know that SP is all you will ever do, adding the extra training for PPL doesn't cost much more, opens up many options for planes, and probably makes you a slightly safer / more alert pilot.
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Right, but he IS one of the 'Can't get a Medical' exceptions that should pursue SP, and it isn't any cheaper or faster for him than PP as he already has more hours than required for a PP. It's just that it's either this or Pt 103 if he wants to fly something.
 
Training-wise, there's nothing I can think of offhand that you can't do under SP other than soloing at night, which most CFIs tend to be hesitant to endorse students for, anyway.

-Rich
 
Well here's my brief story.

In short, I simply can't get a 3rd class medical as I have one lazy eye. This has haunted me a long time. Back when I was 19 (before CDL licenses) I wanted to drive semi's -back then I got away with it - with the eye. When CDL came out (around 1992) the physicals were "really" being performed. I had to get a eye test waiver. I successfully drove 1.5 million miles, accident free.

Finally at 27 years of age, I smartened up and left the industry - and I have been doing what I do know ever since (16 years or so)

Now that I am more "financially sound" I wanted to once again learn to fly - but the medical came up....

The SP is all I can get.

But couple things:
1) I dont feel there was enough training time. In fact, because of the govt shut down, I cant take my written (I am actually prepping for checkride). But I have so far done an additional 4 hours of solo work - 1 small cross/country - and pattern work. I plan on doing this 2 - 3 hours a week until the govt is re-open -which will more than likely be this week.

2)I agree that the PPL gives you more options, and more training. I would do it if I could. But I can't... well, so I thought. Talked to my CFI - and while I can never get checked out for PP (under current law) I CAN Train for PP.

My attitude is - learn, learn, and learn some more. So I am happily going to pay to get my PPL - even though i'll actually never probably get my PPL - at least i'll have the training.

So in a few months from now, if all goes well, i'll be flying around in my little LSA plane... having fun - when the weather is right. It's not everything I wanted, but at the end of the day - at least I can fly.

And I was reading a post earlier in this thread about getting stuck above a low ceiling all the way to Kansas (not sure if you said "stuck" - probably not). And that's something that has always scared me a bit:

"WHAT IF..... i some how roam into IFR, or what if overcast at 1000 feet and i'm above it"... I won't be legal - but I'll have the training, at least, to deal with it....

So that's my 2 cents.. I know, I know, I'm brand new and I have so much to learn... I get it, but I am willing!!
 
Let's get down to brass tacks (IMHO) on the reason for disdain as you put it;
the pilot population demographic is a bunch of 40-60 year old folks who walked two miles to school, up hill both ways, in the snow, and think you should do the same. Anything less is taking the "easy way out" in their opinion. As one who fits that demographic, I call bovine scat. Go fly whatever makes your cheeks sore from smiling too much (is there such a thing?).
 
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EminiTrader said:
Well here's my brief story.

In short, I simply can't get a 3rd class medical as I have one lazy eye. This has haunted me a long time. Back when I was 19 (before CDL licenses) I wanted to drive semi's -back then I got away with it - with the eye. When CDL came out (around 1992) the physicals were "really" being performed. I had to get a eye test waiver. I successfully drove 1.5 million miles, accident free.

Finally at 27 years of age, I smartened up and left the industry - and I have been doing what I do know ever since (16 years or so)

Now that I am more "financially sound" I wanted to once again learn to fly - but the medical came up....

The SP is all I can get.

But couple things:
1) I dont feel there was enough training time. In fact, because of the govt shut down, I cant take my written (I am actually prepping for checkride). But I have so far done an additional 4 hours of solo work - 1 small cross/country - and pattern work. I plan on doing this 2 - 3 hours a week until the govt is re-open -which will more than likely be this week.

2)I agree that the PPL gives you more options, and more training. I would do it if I could. But I can't... well, so I thought. Talked to my CFI - and while I can never get checked out for PP (under current law) I CAN Train for PP.

My attitude is - learn, learn, and learn some more. So I am happily going to pay to get my PPL - even though i'll actually never probably get my PPL - at least i'll have the training.

So in a few months from now, if all goes well, i'll be flying around in my little LSA plane... having fun - when the weather is right. It's not everything I wanted, but at the end of the day - at least I can fly.

And I was reading a post earlier in this thread about getting stuck above a low ceiling all the way to Kansas (not sure if you said "stuck" - probably not). And that's something that has always scared me a bit:

"WHAT IF..... i some how roam into IFR, or what if overcast at 1000 feet and i'm above it"... I won't be legal - but I'll have the training, at least, to deal with it....

So that's my 2 cents.. I know, I know, I'm brand new and I have so much to learn... I get it, but I am willing!!
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I think you may be wrong about not being able to get a Third-Class. I suggest you hop over to the Medical forums and ask Dr. Bruce about it.

As for the training, you can train for pretty much whatever you like with a CFI next to you. Training and exercising privileges are two different things.

-Rich
 
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