Can she log the time?

Bill M.

Bill M.

Pre-takeoff checklist
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barkleydog
This is a cross post from the red board as I'd like all the input and opinion I can get:
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And yet another logging question... My friend has her Comm license with SEL and MEL ratings. Obviously she has endorsements for complex and HP aircraft however she does not have a high altitude endorsement and is too young to be grandfathered via previous experience.
A few weeks ago she was invited to take a little trip in a King Air 200 and got to fly it from the right seat. Her CFI told her she couldn't log it because she didn't have the High altitude sign off. I beg to differ. I think she can log it because she was not the acting PIC but was the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which she is rated. I don't think a type rating is required for the 200s so looks like to me she can log the time. What say you?
 
I answered on the red board...

HA doesn't matter, type rating does. I don't know if you need a type for the King 200.
 
EdFred said:
I answered on the red board...

HA doesn't matter, type rating does. I don't know if you need a type for the King 200.
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That's what I think but she was told by her CFI she couldn't do it. She also attends an East Coast University with a part 141 pilot training program so she is somewhat hesitant to "buck the professor."
I don't want her to get in trouble but I just think the guy is wrong.
 
Yup, he's wrong.

She was sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which she is rated (AMEL). She does not need the HA endorsement to log that time.

"Rated" in this context means what is printed on the pilot license--category, class, and type. The 200 does not require a type rating. She has the category/class.
 
EdFred said:
I answered on the red board...

HA doesn't matter, type rating does. I don't know if you need a type for the King 200.
Click to expand...

Correct. And AFaIK the MGW of a King Air 200 is 12,500 so no type rating is required either. Tell her to log away.
 
Yet another CFI who doesn't understand the subtleties of being PIC vs. logging PIC.

CFI needs refresher training.
 
Greebo said:
Yet another CFI who doesn't understand the subtleties of being PIC vs. logging PIC.

CFI needs refresher training.
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So true, Chuck. I've encountered it twice, both times with high hour CFIs. The first was doing tail dragger training the other was transition training from the R22 to the R44. In both cases I was rated in category and class (PP-ASEL and PP-RH). I entered the time as PIC in my logbook.
 
Greebo said:
Yet another CFI who doesn't understand the subtleties of being PIC vs. logging PIC.

CFI needs refresher training.
Click to expand...

I admit, old dogs like me had a time understanding it several years ago, but these newer and more progressive CFIs should be taught this from the beginning. In fact, my friend in question here had not been taught the difference between acting and flying PIC. Maybe they should read these boards more often. In fact, I'm going to recommend she tell her CFI to check in and read the boards himself.
 
if that CFI is right, my multi time just took a nosedive.

as others said, log away, cat/class/type is all that matters.
 
And if she flew under the hood, she could have logged SIC, even if a type rating is required, since only cat/class is required for SIC, and being under the hood requires two pilots - one (under hood) is SIC as manipulator rated in cat/class, other (safety pilot and acting PIC) is PIC because the rules require two pilots.

So.. when you go fly those new to you airplanes, take your foggles, especially if the plane requires a type rating.
 
Some CFIs just need a good ole fashion ass kicking.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
So true, Chuck. I've encountered it twice, both times with high hour CFIs.
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It's still pretty common. What the sole manipulator rule in 61.51 means is counter-intuitive and requires knowledge of the way it's been interpreted. And it's not a knowledge test or PTS topic. So a CFI would pretty much need to be hanging out in online forums or have come across it a FIRC to even come across the correct meaning.

High-hour CFIs who have been teaching for a long time are probably less likely to have been exposed to it than low-timers. But it is somewhat surprising for someone teaching in a university program to not have been exposed to a 25-year old FAA interpretation.
 
TMetzinger said:
And if she flew under the hood, she could have logged SIC, even if a type rating is required, since only cat/class is required for SIC, and being under the hood requires two pilots - one (under hood) is SIC as manipulator rated in cat/class, other (safety pilot and acting PIC) is PIC because the rules require two pilots.
Click to expand...
Ummm, no...you can only log SIC time when acting as a required second in command. In this case, the PIC is not hooded, and neither the type certificate nor the regulations under which the aircraft is being flown require a second pilot (it's the only safety pilot who's the second required pilot when the pilot flying is hooded), so she can't log SIC time while flying under the hood when she's not rated. However, if the PIC were to put on the hood, she would be able to log SIC time as the now-required second pilot acting as safety pilot.

So.. when you go fly those new to you airplanes, take your foggles, especially if the plane requires a type rating.
Click to expand...
Right, but make sure it's the PIC who's wearing them when you log SIC time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Ummm, no...you can only log SIC time when acting as a required second in command. In this case, the PIC is not hooded, and neither the type certificate nor the regulations under which the aircraft is being flown require a second pilot (it's the only safety pilot who's the second required pilot when the pilot flying is hooded), so she can't log SIC time while flying under the hood when she's not rated. However, if the PIC were to put on the hood, she would be able to log SIC time as the now-required second pilot acting as safety pilot.

Right, but make sure it's the PIC who's wearing them when you log SIC time.
Click to expand...


Thanks, you're right. I had it backwards, forgetting that manipulating only applies to logging PIC (and that requires full cat/class/type rating).
 
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