Can a non-current instrument pilot file IFR on a VMC flight?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Baron62, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I am a rusty instrument rated pilot and I was wondering if I could fly an IFR clearance on a VMC day? If I encountered IMC, then I would cancel my IFR clearance. A friend tells me he does this for practice in the system when not current. I know that if I am head down I should have a safety pilot to see and avoid.
     
  2. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Negative. IFR clearance has nothing to do with conditions of flight.

    61.57
    (c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR... ...only if:
    [instrument currency/recency follows]

    paragraph (e) refers to 119/121/125 ops
     
  3. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    A good friend of mine has a sign on his desk, it says:

    "Nope."
     
  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I agree with your answer "Negative". But it seems to me that "or weather conditions less than the minimums..." has to do with conditions of flight, so it does have "something" to do with conditions of flight.
     
  5. JScarry

    JScarry Pre-takeoff checklist

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    §61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
    (c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if: ...
     
  6. coma24

    coma24 Line Up and Wait

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    I'm guesing you mean with plenty of time prior to entering IMC...but I still had to chuckle a little bit :)
     
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  7. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The clearance itself has nothing to do with the conditions of flight. The weather conditions less than minimums refer to class G airspace, which you shouldn't/won't get a clearance for, since, well, uncontrolled. Or in some cases in controlled airspace before you've gotten your clearance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  8. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, definitely while maintaining VMC.
     
  9. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks, That is the way I read it as well for part 91. You must be IFR current to fly an IFR clearance as PIC.
     
  10. BillyBH

    BillyBH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you have trouble with this one, you aren't ready.
     
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  11. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    No can dooski. If you want to file IFR, IMC or not, someone at the controls must be rated and current.
     
  12. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Even if you could, seems like a bad idea, if you say you’re IFR folks might expect you to be able to do IFR stuff, knock the rust off and get current than file
     
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  13. Piper18O

    Piper18O Pre-Flight

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    I remember the first time I flew in actual IMC during my instrument training, my instructor said to me, "Don't screw up. You are on my ticked now." lol
     
  14. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If you file it you should be prepared to fly it. ATC assumes you can fly any deviations they give you.
     
  15. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    Actually, even if you were rated and filed it under your name, the instructor will still be responsible.
     
  16. sonopoa

    sonopoa Pre-Flight

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    How rusty
     
  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oil can... Oil can...
     
  18. Tantalum

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  19. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    What do you mean by "not current" ? If you review the currency rules that EdFred referenced above there are stipulations to this too. Don't file if you're not actually proficient to fly it. You can still request "practice approaches" etc., to regain experience / currency / practice / etc.
     
  20. TheGolfPilot

    TheGolfPilot Line Up and Wait

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    Ya, anybody can fly an IFR clearance. I have heard of guys who don’t have any certificates file and fly IFR.
    Is it legal? No


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  21. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    To answer the question posed by the title of this thread, yes, you can file IFR. Even without an IFR rating, anyone can file. You just can't accept any clearance unless you meet all the requirements of flying in less than VFR conditions.
     
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  22. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    ...and are IFR current.
     
  23. genna

    genna Cleared for Takeoff

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    I might as well get all pedantic here and say this: You can file IFR, but you may not accept the clearance ... You know, since we are getting all technical up in here. :p:p
     
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  24. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Wouldn’t that by definition be one of the requirements?
     
  25. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The way he worded it, and taking the statement all by itself, it allowed for flying under IFR if the weather was better than VFR mins.

    Which implies you can accept one if it's better than VFR minimums.
     
  26. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    LOL. You WOULD look at it that way.

    I read it as “You can accept any clearance if you meet all the requirements. . .” Two totally opposite ways of looking at the same sentence.
     
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    While you aren't allowed to fly under instrument flight rules, you can fly practice instrument approaches as long as you do it under visual flight rules.
     
  28. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    Well, you can accept the clearance too. But you're not doing it legally. ;)
     
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  29. genna

    genna Cleared for Takeoff

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    exactly
     
  30. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

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    No. You have to be rated and current even to file an IFR flight, no matter the Wx. conditions.
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Where does it say that?
     
  32. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  33. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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  35. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The FAA assumes that if you file IFR you intend to fly IFR. I read that somewhere. might go hand in hand with forgetting something on your medical. The FAA doesn’t default to “he must have forgot” the assume you intended to deceive.

    So why would you file if you didn’t intend to fly, barring a weather change. Besides quibbling and looking for reasons why you should be able to do something you have no reason to do that could go bad but probably won’t. What is your point?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  36. Eric Brunelle

    Eric Brunelle Pre-Flight

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    Yeah - not a good idea. Even in VMC, you can bust your altitude, or any number of things that could bring attention to your illegal self. To practice when not current, fly under the hood with a safety pilot - have him or her give you vectors. Then ask for the practice approach. Good for practice, but you do need a pilot buddy.
     
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  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Unless someone is conspiring with others to do something illegal, I don't think there is any statute or regulation against intending to do something and then not doing it. And even in conspiracy, my understanding is that it requires at least one overt act on the part of one of the conspirators.

    Hopefully, it should be clear to everyone in this thread by now that you can't file and fly IFR if you are out of IFR currency.

    However, one example of a motivation for filing IFR without flying IFR was raised in the thread that was linked above. In that thread, there was discussion of the fact that some pilots like to check the "IFR" box instead of the "VFR" box on the flight plan form when they want VFR flight following, because that causes it to go to ATC instead of to Flight Service. Some people interpret the interpretation letter that was uploaded to that thread as saying that it's not legal to do that. I think that's a misinterpretation of the letter, but that's just my opinion as a non-attorney. The main drawback I see to the procedure is that it reportedly confuses some controllers. Personally, I like to avoid long drawn-out explanations on ATC frequencies.

    Of course It is very common, when a pilot asks for a practice approach, for the controller to say "cleared for the approach" at some point in the process. My understanding is that this does not constitute an IFR clearance as long as they don't say "cleared to xxx," where xxx is an airport or other clearance limit. (And ATC often reminds pilots to maintain VFR conditions in that situation.) I think it would be a bad idea to file IFR for that purpose, because the flying of approaches would make it more likely for the filed flight plan to cause confusion.
     
  38. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    IFR has *NOTHING* to do with weather; as the acronym itself implies, it is all about the type of flight rules you will be flying under

    I always wonder why people ask about IMC and VMC vs IFR

    also, one of the nice things about the FARs, is they really do spell it out in black and white when you may or may not accept an instrument, read: IFR, clearance
     
  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    I have asked for practice approaches when I was solo in the plane and just not used the hood and not logged it, still good overall from a proficiency perspective
     
  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    More specifically, you can't operate under IFR or fly in less than VMC. Not all IFR operations require a clearance.