"Call this number when landed advise when ready to copy"

vince said:
Well... yes actually I do kinda. He was finding my radio calls amusing and didn't step in to help. When I was doing my private training my instructor there would step in when necessary. When it got to the point where I was told to call a number I think he let it go too far he should have stepped in.

Afterwards I thought about it and what if I had something more serious happen? Why should I be the one who is affected? I don't pretend to be IR rated. I am not. That is why I am taking the training. HE should have been the one to make the call. The IFR plan was in HIS name. As far as anyone is concerned he was the one flying however it was logged. I pretty steamed about it now after pondering on it. Think I'm going to get a new instructor.
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If it would have gotten more serious, then the instructor takes the 44709 ride, not the student.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Anyone else slightly bothered by the idea of bringing someone who "only just started" IFR training into a busy terminal area with rapid fire communications?
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That doesn't describe STL, STL has to be one of if not the slowest Class B since TWA went away. Even back in the day STL wasn't real busy.
 
vince said:
Well I told my instructor that he should have made the call since he was technically PIC and it was filed under his name. Let's just say that conversation didn't go so well. :rolleyes2: He says that we're both PIC and it was my error therefore my call to make and that I must "toughen up" and accept my fault, and learn from it. He said if he should have made the call then why did the controller not ask to speak to him when I said I was a student? I did not have a response to that.
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How about "You're fired"? Assuming everything you've posted is accurate, this guy doesn't understand his duties and responsibilities as an instructor, and I don't think that's what you want.
 
azure said:
Uhhh... no. :no: You were not "both PIC". There is no such thing. Either he was PIC, or you were. If you were on an IFR clearance, and you are not instrument rated, then he was PIC, period. (the alternative is that the flight was illegal, and... well, let's not go there)

This instructor is either confused or else is trying to snow you to cover his a$$. Best to fire him NOW, and find someone else.
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I say give this CFII some of his own medicine. File another flight plan, intentionally bust an altitude and miss radio calls. When ATC says to call a certain number, the student simply fails to hear (walks away). He'll get the message.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I say give this CFII some of his own medicine. File another flight plan, intentionally bust an altitude and miss radio calls. When ATC says to call a certain number, the student simply fails to hear (walks away). He'll get the message.
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You forgot the sarcasm smiley on your post, James.
 
Correction:
Jaybird180 said:
I say give this CFII some of his own medicine. File another flight plan, WITH SAID INSTRUCTOR ABOARD intentionally bust an altitude and miss radio calls. When ATC says to call a certain number, the student simply fails to hear (walks away). He'll get the message.
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Jaybird180 said:
I say give this CFII some of his own medicine. File another flight plan, intentionally bust an altitude and miss radio calls. When ATC says to call a certain number, the student simply fails to hear (walks away). He'll get the message.
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I like it! :D
 
Jaybird180 said:
Not sarcasm, Ron.

You would never do this, so Hakuna Matata.
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"No worries?" :no: I would not suggest that a trainee intentionally do something just to get his/her instructor in trouble. First, the FAA is not limited to going after the PIC in cases like this -- the certificate-holding trainee who intentionally breaks a rule could still be liable for enforcement action. But even if that didn't happen, if word of a stunt like that got around, that trainee might find it very difficult to find another instructor willing to fly with him/her.
 
the radio calls were very intimidating for me at the start. the fact that I'm at a non-towered airport didn't help. after a while, you start hearing the same jargon quite a bit.
 
I wouldn't want to do anything illegal or dangerous but humiliating him would be really satisfying. Just like he humiliated me. Revenge is a dish best served cold so I'm going to bide my time until I can do something really special. :D
 
Bill Watson said:
I was thinking it could be worse... instead of the dreaded call, I once got balled out on the air.

VFR flight into White Plains, I missed a call during a pretty busy moment. Maybe missed it twice. When I did get it, I got it. Something like, "Listen, don't come flying in here unless you can keep up....(ears burning, mind frozen)". Maybe it's better that way, better to get your knuckles rapped than to be sent to the principal's office.

Of course this was many years ago when headphones still seemed optional. I can't even imagine how I heard anything then. Very old school.
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Happened to me once too.
enroute to OLV, on FF very close to my destination. Just the right time of day for cumulus to be building, and I was winding my way between them, MEM controller refused to allow me to descend to get below it, then vectored me all over the place, and chewed my azz and told me that I needed to get my DG repaired. He had me VFR in the clouds, and asked if I had the field. I told him that I was in the clouds and couldn't see a dadblame thing, I'd like to cancel FF. He refused my request, kept me at 8500msl, untill I could see the field. And when I'd had enough I told him "field in sight", He chewed my azz a tad more before I got the maintane VFR good day thing. All I wanted to do was descend to about 4500 or less, as I was nearing OLV, and I wanted to get below the clouds.
 
vince said:
I wouldn't want to do anything illegal or dangerous but humiliating him would be really satisfying. Just like he humiliated me. Revenge is a dish best served cold so I'm going to bide my time until I can do something really special. :D
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This does not sound like a healthy relationship! :eek:
 
vince said:
I wouldn't want to do anything illegal or dangerous but humiliating him would be really satisfying. Just like he humiliated me. Revenge is a dish best served cold so I'm going to bide my time until I can do something really special. :D
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I'm thoroughly familiar with that old Klingon proverb (attributed to Kahless, IIRC), but the Klingons also say, "It is a good day to die." Further, Confucius said, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” In my opinion, when seeking wisdom, an ancient Chinese philosopher is probably a better source than the Klingon Empire.

As I said, doing something like that could get you in trouble, as well as make it hard to get another instructor -- and you do indeed need another instructor with a better-structured instructional plan and a lot more professionalism. If you don't mind paying top dollar for top quality, call Donn at 1-800-I-FLY-IFR and PIC will send you a well-organized, highly professional instrument instructor to complete your training on an intensive basis -- just be sure to tell him I sent you. For more on PIC, see http://www.iflyifr.com.
 
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bluerooster said:
Happened to me once too.
enroute to OLV, on FF very close to my destination. Just the right time of day for cumulus to be building, and I was winding my way between them, MEM controller refused to allow me to descend to get below it, then vectored me all over the place, and chewed my azz and told me that I needed to get my DG repaired. He had me VFR in the clouds, and asked if I had the field. I told him that I was in the clouds and couldn't see a dadblame thing, I'd like to cancel FF. He refused my request, kept me at 8500msl, untill I could see the field. And when I'd had enough I told him "field in sight", He chewed my azz a tad more before I got the maintane VFR good day thing. All I wanted to do was descend to about 4500 or less, as I was nearing OLV, and I wanted to get below the clouds.
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I hope you're making that up.

VFR, the appropriate response to a vector into the clouds is "unable." Full stop. There is NO WAY a controller can "have you" in the clouds VFR. If you must descend to avoid clouds, advise the controller and do it. Declare an emergency if you have to, but it shouldn't be necessary to go that far.

It is YOUR responsibility to maintain VFR cloud clearances, not the controller's. In Class B, you have to just be clear of clouds. Otherwise, it's 500/1000/2000 in controlled airspace.

I've gotten amended instructions from Class B and C controllers trivially by mentioning clouds. This is beyond easy. Class E doesn't often come with restrictions in the first place.

As it sounds like you were inside KMEM Class B, you simply tell the controller you are unable to maintain VFR at this altitude and are descending. That's what 14 CFR 91.3(b) is there for, and you might expect to answer for 91.3(c) as well, under the circumstances.
 
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Ron Levy said:
...Further, Confucius said, "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”...
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I like that. He really WAS wise!

In general, I've come to the conclusion that the biggest beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver.
 
bluerooster said:
Happened to me once too.
enroute to OLV, on FF very close to my destination. Just the right time of day for cumulus to be building, and I was winding my way between them, MEM controller refused to allow me to descend to get below it, then vectored me all over the place, and chewed my azz and told me that I needed to get my DG repaired. He had me VFR in the clouds, and asked if I had the field. I told him that I was in the clouds and couldn't see a dadblame thing, I'd like to cancel FF. He refused my request, kept me at 8500msl, untill I could see the field. And when I'd had enough I told him "field in sight", He chewed my azz a tad more before I got the maintane VFR good day thing. All I wanted to do was descend to about 4500 or less, as I was nearing OLV, and I wanted to get below the clouds.
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Yeahhh....I'm too tired to touch that one tonight.
 
bluerooster said:
Happened to me once too.
enroute to OLV, on FF very close to my destination. Just the right time of day for cumulus to be building, and I was winding my way between them, MEM controller refused to allow me to descend to get below it, then vectored me all over the place, and chewed my azz and told me that I needed to get my DG repaired. He had me VFR in the clouds, and asked if I had the field. I told him that I was in the clouds and couldn't see a dadblame thing, I'd like to cancel FF. He refused my request, kept me at 8500msl, untill I could see the field. And when I'd had enough I told him "field in sight", He chewed my azz a tad more before I got the maintane VFR good day thing. All I wanted to do was descend to about 4500 or less, as I was nearing OLV, and I wanted to get below the clouds.
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Noooo.....that could never happen.......:rolleyes2:
 
Ron Levy said:
"No worries?" :no: I would not suggest that a trainee intentionally do something just to get his/her instructor in trouble. First, the FAA is not limited to going after the PIC in cases like this -- the certificate-holding trainee who intentionally breaks a rule could still be liable for enforcement action. But even if that didn't happen, if word of a stunt like that got around, that trainee might find it very difficult to find another instructor willing to fly with him/her.
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I doubt any trainee would do less than his/her best. But there is a point under tyrannical leadership where people tend to say "F it" and psychological exhaustion takes it's toll. An aircraft is filled with these trigger mechanisms, which is why it is a poor classroom, and I don't doubt the trainee may think the instructor is wasting his time and money, but that is checked with ego of "I can learn this".

That rationale caused me to take calculus from a poor professor 3x, because I liked the challenge of "beating him". It dug my own academic grave, from which it took much to dig out of.
 
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