C150/152 rudder jam AD

[RyanB]

I heard about how the 150's and 152's have had an issue with a rudder jam in the past having the rudder get jammed beyond the stop. I saw this had an AD to fix this issue. By this point, should all active 152's have the mod installed by now to fix this issue, especially ones used for commercial purposes?

Thanks!

 

[poadeleted20]

IIRC, this AD does not require that the problem be fixed, but that if it is not, spins are prohibited. Can someone more familiar confirm this? If I'm right, there may well be affected planes which have a placard rather than a modification. However, every affected airplane should have one or the other by now.

 

[kgruber]

IIRC, this AD does not require that the problem be fixed, but that if it is not, spins are prohibited. Can someone more familiar confirm this? True! If I'm right, there may well be affected planes which have a placard rather than a modification. However, every affected airplane should have one or the other by now.

.....

 

[Seanaldinho]

Ron got it.

The 150 I learned in was placarded for a while and then during an annual they did the AD and it is now spinable.

 

[RyanB]

Oh ok, when its placarded unintentional spins prohibited, how does that differ from intentional? You have to use the rudder to get out of either one. I would think the AD for this would have the mod required. Say an unitentional spin happened and the rudder jammed.. Im surprised its not a mandatory mod.

 

[Henning]

Oh ok, when its placarded unintentional spins prohibited, how does that differ from intentional? You have to use the rudder to get out of either one. I would think the AD for this would have the mod required. Say an unitentional spin happened and the rudder jammed.. Im surprised its not a mandatory mod.

Because you can't forbid an inadvertent action by the nature of it being inadvertant. The wording of the plaque is because it was written by lawyers in a society full of stupid people.

 

[RyanB]

Because you can't forbid an inadvertent action by the nature of it being inadvertant. The wording of the plaque is because it was written by lawyers in a society full of stupid people.

That makes sense, the reason I ask this is say someone was out doing stalls or something and got into a spin and the rudder jammed. It would seem to me that the FAA would mandate the mod be installed for this as its a little concerning, does the rudder just jam randomly, or do you have to apply hard rudder pressure to get it to go past the stop?

 

[Witmo]

That makes sense, the reason I ask this is say someone was out doing stalls or something and got into a spin and the rudder jammed. It would seem to me that the FAA would mandate the mod be installed for this as its a little concerning, does the rudder just jam randomly, or do you have to apply hard rudder pressure to get it to go past the stop?

The few instances where the rudder jammed during spins were in airplanes that had issues that a mechanically sound and maintained aircraft would not have. One had the OEM rudder stop installed incorrectly, presumably from the factory, and another was in such poor condition that there's no way it should have been flying. The chances of a good 150/152 with the OEM rudder stop having a problem are nil but now in order to spin, you need the mod done to make the FAA happy.

 

[Tom-D]

IIRC, this AD does not require that the problem be fixed, but that if it is not, spins are prohibited. Can someone more familiar confirm this? If I'm right, there may well be affected planes which have a placard rather than a modification. However, every affected airplane should have one or the other by now.

Here is the AD in its final form. it does not apply to all 150's or 152's

You can inspect, and placard it out on spins, or install the repair kit and terminate the AD.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/583392bb4f328c77862578f8004e1580/$FILE/2009-10-09%20R2_Correction.pdf

 

[Henning]

That makes sense, the reason I ask this is say someone was out doing stalls or something and got into a spin and the rudder jammed. It would seem to me that the FAA would mandate the mod be installed for this as its a little concerning, does the rudder just jam randomly, or do you have to apply hard rudder pressure to get it to go past the stop?

That is why the plaquard is worded as it is, to prevent confusion on if you could use the plane or not for training due to the risk of inadvertant spin entry.

Here's the deal, it's all a numbers game based on actuarial data. It is a situation that statistically happens, let's call it, 1 in every 5000 occurance's. You want to avoid intentionally doing spin training where you can go through that 5000. However, in normal training where the plane will never see a fully developed spin, and maybe see 1/2 a turn 3-4 times a year, the statistical risk of encountering a loss is significantly low enough to allow continued use in normal training conditions.

I'm not familiar with the AD to comment on the failure mode.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not familiar with the AD to comment on the failure mode.

Failure mode on this discrepancy is when the rudder stop (which is a 3/16" AN bolt) on the fuselage which passes the rudder striker. and holds the rudder in full deflection. and stomping the opposite rudder will not get it off the stop.

Then you land with the rudder in full deflection,,, really a fun lesson for a student.

 

[Tom-D]

OBTW folks,, the kit is a 15 minute install, but you must price it thru your Cessna dealer.

 

[flyingron]

Actuarial is more scientific term than what describes the abhorrent probability/statistic principles that the FAA uses to evaluate proposed ADs. Don't get me started. While this one probably is reasonably grounded, the FAA will take any laughable argument as long as the manufacturer recommends the AD as a way to generate revenue.

 

[steingar]

Never spun my 150 because I was told it would ruin the gyros. Probably a good idea not so anyway, I think intentional spins have killed more pilots than they've saved.

 

[bnt83]

Never spun my 150 because I was told it would ruin the gyros. Probably a good idea not so anyway, I think intentional spins have killed more pilots than they've saved.

I spun my 150 so many times its not funny. I have yet to spin the Cardinal tho. Maybe I just got smarter.

 

[Henning]

Actuarial is more scientific term than what describes the abhorrent probability/statistic principles that the FAA uses to evaluate proposed ADs. Don't get me started. While this one probably is reasonably grounded, the FAA will take any laughable argument as long as the manufacturer recommends the AD as a way to generate revenue.

I wasn't so much refering to the issuing of the AD, but rather why the would prohibit intentional spins, yet still allow the plane to operate in an environment where risk of inadvertant spins exists.

I agree with you on the AD process being abused in instances to drive revenue. Hartzel picked up a big expensive AD right after TRW spent a bunch of money to buy them. Coincidence?

 

[Witmo]

Oh ok, when its placarded unintentional spins prohibited, how does that differ from intentional? You have to use the rudder to get out of either one. I would think the AD for this would have the mod required. Say an unitentional spin happened and the rudder jammed.. Im surprised its not a mandatory mod.

Just to be absolutely clear, the placard prohibits intentional spins as you cannot prohibit someone inadvertently entering a spin. If you accidentally enter a spin in an unmodified airplane, there's a 0.0009% chance that the rudder would jam. The AD is the equivalent of wearing a belt, suspenders and stitching your pants to your belly to prevent them from falling. If it was a big problem, intentional stalls would have been prohibited without the modification which would have pretty much ruined the 150 as a trainer.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Never spun my 150 because I was told it would ruin the gyros. Probably a good idea not so anyway, I think intentional spins have killed more pilots than they've saved.

At the flight school we spun the 150s, 172s and Citabrias ALL the time. The PPL students were proficient by the time we were done, and the Commercial guys saw pretty much every spin-entry scenario. They're still doing that there. Thousands of spins per year, and nobody ever hurt. A spin is a controllable maneuver, just like a turn, as long as the airplane is certified for them, and it will behave exactly as we ask it to.

Spins are hard on most gyros, though, but we lost more gyros to cold weather before we had a heated hangar large enough to store all the airplanes overnight. Gyros hate the cold. And they hate excessive engine/prop vibration.

Dan

 

[flyingron]

I spun ol' 714YF (a 152) on my second lesson (my instructor was a little crazy). Since the plane was a leaseback and rarely got used much for actual IFR (it only had a single NAV/COM with no GS), I guess nobody sweated the gyros.

I'm not sure how hard a 152-type spin is on the gyro...it's pretty benign. It's not like it's being slammed into the stops at 4G's.

 

[kgruber]

I "think" when the AD first came out Cessna had a kit at a reasonable price.

Later on the price got boosted way out of line with reason, considering the small parts it contains.