Buying My First Plane...

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MileHigh

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Mile High
Hey guys,

Got my license 2 years ago, about 250hrs logged so far and instrument rated. Been renting a G1000 equipped C172 from a flight club at an insanely cheap price for the past year but I've outgrown it and want to go higher, faster, and carry more weight plus I want all the bells and whistles.

I've been looking at buying my first plane now and am ready to make it happen. I've been looking for G1000, FIKI, A/C and of course speed! My budget has been flexible but hoping to stay between 250-350K.

This lead me to a 2005 Mooney M20M GX Bravo listed for 257K. It's pretty loaded with "FIKI TKS, A/C, Synthetic Vision, NDH, G1000 Avionics, S-TEC 55X, GDL 69A XM/WX, turboGAMIjectors, Long Range Fuel, AMSAFE Airbags". Downside being it has 1,465 hours so just over 500hrs left before an estimated 50K overhaul, it's 4 months behind on the annual and the Oxygen Bottle Hydrostatic test is due.

VREF values it at 253 retail and 205 wholesale with all options and hours accounted for (http://i.imgur.com/IynJO7F.png). I've heard some people say VREF is way outside of what's reality and I've heard others say it's pretty good. Haven't began negotiations yet as I'm trying to figure out what's a good price to get it for.

So with that said, anyone have any thoughts on the target price I should be going for? Also, anyone else have recommendations for a different G1000 equipped plane with A/C, FIKI...etc I should be looking at for 350 or under?
 
I'm not a vref fan.

That said for the kind of $$ you're talking, I'd be looking for a turbine conversion booted and pressurized 210.
 
If VREF is 205-253k.....
And this one is not airworthy (out of annual), then it is likely worth less than low-book.

Here is one for $149k.... with an annual.
1992 M20M TLS/BRAVO, 2010 TT. 850 on eng. & prop s/Bravo Conv. Fresh Annual. March 2016 Aspen 1000 Pro, JPI EDM-730. Garmin 530W.
Avionics / Equipment

JPI EDM 703 Graphic Engine Monitor
Garmin GNS-530W
King KI-256 Flight Command Indicator with Flight Director
King KFC-150 Auto Pilot (Apch. Coupled with Flight Director)
King KAS-297B Altitude Select / Vertical Speed
New Artex ME-406 ELT
Aspen Pro 1000 with WX, JPI EDM 703 Graphic Engine Monitor
Terra Radar Altimeter TRA3000
Dual G/S
KFC-150 Autopilot
KAS-297 Altitude Preselect
Plus all other standard Mooney Equipment
Airframe

2010 Hours Total Time -
Strobe / Recog. Lights
4 Place Oxygen
Precise Flight Speed Brakes
Taxi/Landing Lights
Wing Fuel Sight Gauges
Engines / Mods / Prop

TIO-540-AF1B Compressions at March 2016 Annual - 75/76/77/78/77/77
850 Hours on Engine & Prop Since Bravo Conversion
Prop Deice
Engine Heater
Dual Batters / Dual Alternators
Electric Standby Vacuum

New or Overhauled Equipment includes:
Exhaust
Turbo
Hoses
Vacuum Pump
Mags
Two New Batteries
New Baffle Seals
Click to expand...


Another one with lower time.... for $177k....

General Specs (cont.)

Total Time:​
1,725
Engine 1 Overhaul Time:​
1,700 SNEW
Prop 1 Overhaul Time:​
500 SPOH
Condition:​
Used
Flight Rules:​
N/A
# of Seats:​
4​
​

Detailed Description

Garmin GTN-750 plus complete new panel plus TKS Anti/De-Ice.
Avionics upgrade include GTN-750, GNC-255 #2 Nav-Com, GMA-35 Audio Marker, GLD-88 Data Link, GTX-330ex Transponder, Flightstream-210 (iPad sync to Foreflight or Garmin Connext, MD-200 CDI (full ILS backup with GNC-255), MyGoFlight iPad panel mount plus iPad yoke mount plus custom USB panel mount power supply. WX-1000+ Stormscope.
Well planned panel, full redundancy with dual batteries, dual alternators, dual vacuum, and iPad AHRS and TKS. Very safe IFR machine!

This "Bravo" is a head turner on the ramp! Beautiful colors, 3 blade prop, always hangared, in great condition. Flies fast, flies high, and sips fuel. Speed brakes, 115 cu. ft. oxygen (recent bottle). Stormscope (slaved) with checklists. Wing fuel gauges. All new avionics, 2 new batteries, 2 new alternators, 2 new mags. Always maintained with 100 hr. inspections.

I'm upgrading to turbine airplane, so time to sell HK. Only 3 owners since new. Can be delivered and familiarization flying provided if necessary after purchase.
Avionics / Equipment

Garmin GTN-750 plus complete new panel plus TKS Anti/De-Ice.
Avionics upgrade include GTN-750, GNC-255 #2 Nav-Com, GMA-35 Audio Marker, GLD-88 Data Link, GTX-330ex Transponder, Flightstream-210 (iPad sync to Foreflight or Garmin Connext, MD-200 CDI (full ILS backup with GNC-255), MyGoFlight iPad panel mount plus iPad yoke mount plus custom USB panel mount power supply. WX-1000+ Stormscope. Well planned panel, full redundancy with dual batteries, dual alternators, dual vacuum, and iPad AHRS. Very safe IFR machine!
Airframe

TKS Anti & De Ice

No damage, no corrosion.
Click to expand...
 
James331 said:
I'm not a vref fan.

That said for the kind of $$ you're talking, I'd be looking for a turbine conversion booted and pressurized 210.
Click to expand...

Quick peak on Controller, newest 210 listed is a 1986. I was expecting to see a lot more selection for 210s.


JoseCuervo said:
If VREF is 205-253k.....
And this one is not airworthy (out of annual), then it is likely worth less than low-book.

Here is one for $149k.... with an annual.



Another one with lower time.... for $177k....
Click to expand...

Price on both of those are awesome, except I'm really a G1000 snob (being honest here lol) and want to ensure I find a good plane with FIKI & A/C to make it a solid year round plane (I live in SoCal... hot summer with low freezing levels in winter)
 
Says me an out of annual airplane is scrap and worth not a penny more. If there's nothing wrong with it the owner can hire a mechanic and get it airworthy. Then I'll look.
 
steingar said:
Says me an out of annual airplane is scrap and worth not a penny more. If there's nothing wrong with it the owner can hire a mechanic and get it airworthy. Then I'll look.
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I gotcha, don't want something out of annual because god knows what kind of ADs need to be done or crap like that. Basically I need to demand a fresh annual before making an offer.
 
MileHigh said:
I gotcha, don't want something out of annual because god knows what kind of ADs need to be done or crap like that. Basically I need to demand a fresh annual before making an offer.
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If you're really that hot on it you could offer to pay for the inspection, but ask the seller to deal with any airworthiness squawks. Whether or not the seller agrees, that's only fair since the seller is selling the aircraft based on its airworthiness. Otherwise it simply isn't worth what they're asking. I would absolutely insist on having the inspection done by a Mooney Center if you don't know anyone in the area. I might have a Mooney Center do the inspection even if I did. They'll take longer and charge more, but they'll inspect more as well.

I don't trust Vref for anything. Get on Trade a plane and other airplane selling sites and try and see what Bravos are going for. Also, make certain you sit in a Mooney before you think about buying one. They honestly aren't for everyone. And keep in mind that you have to deal with extra issues with this airplane, time is money. I promise they won't get their asking price without an annual inspection unless they can find and idiot for a buyer.

One thing is for certain. Outside of experimentals Mooneys give the best bang for the buck in GA.
 
As long as the owner gets it into annual who cares?


If you have any nice aircraft which are just out of annual, PM me, I'll happily pay you $2.25 per pound for the planes.
 
steingar said:
Says me an out of annual airplane is scrap and worth not a penny more. If there's nothing wrong with it the owner can hire a mechanic and get it airworthy. Then I'll look.
Click to expand...
That's kind of a silly blanket statement.
 
It does seem weird to try and sell a plane that is out of annual. I mean buyers want to come see it and fly it. But they really can't. Its going to cost you. A plane should sell in a year of advertising. If it doesn't something is wrong (most likely too high a price).
 
coloradobluesky said:
It does seem weird to try and sell a plane that is out of annual. I mean buyers want to come see it and fly it. But they really can't. Its going to cost you. A plane should sell in a year of advertising. If it doesn't something is wrong (most likely too high a price).
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It's not ideal, but there are a ton of airplanes that come on the market because the owner passed away and the family decides they need to sell. Those are often out of annual. As long as the family is not being unrealistic with the asking price, you might be able to find a deal. Really depends on the particular circumstance. Way to many variables to simply automatically assess it as scrap.
 
MileHigh said:
I gotcha, don't want something out of annual because god knows what kind of ADs need to be done or crap like that. Basically I need to demand a fresh annual before making an offer.
Click to expand...

You don't need an annual to find out what the AD status is. Get an AD list for it and ask to review the logs.

500 hours before overhaul? Do you really plan on yanking it at TBO?

Hydrostatic test is not that big of a deal.

As to the annual, I would not sweat that. Have your A&P do a solid prebuy on it and if it looks solid, make an offer. If you need to ferry it to a different airport after you buy it for the annual then so be it. You can always use that as a bargaining chip if you want to low ball the seller.
 
Can you insure a plane that is out of annual? I know Avemco insists it be in annual upon initiation. They will pay if it lapses, but you have to prove it was in annual on your "anniversary date" (first day of being insured)
 
Looking at comps I see another 2005 Mooney with similar specs BUT has 1,000 hours less time on the engine, TKS instead of FIKI and no A/C with an asking price of 269K and it just had it's annual 2 months ago. Trying to figure out the value difference of TKS vs FIKI, Factory A/C, and the 1000hrs less
 
MileHigh said:
Trying to figure out the value difference of TKS vs FIKI
Click to expand...

FIKI is simply the acronym for certified Flight Into Known Icing. Different types of systems exist as you know (boots, weeping wing, heated etc) TKS is the kind of system it has which is essentially the weeping wing, it uses a fluid to de ice. Most small GA airplanes that are FIKI certified use TKS

If you want a G1000 airplane with FIKI, in the realm of single Pistons, your only options really are a Mooney or a Cirrus, unless you wanted to go to a Piper Matrix/Mirage
 
JustinD said:
FIKI is simply the acronym for certified Flight Into Known Icing. Different types of systems exist as you know (boots, weeping wing, heated etc) TKS is the kind of system it has which is essentially the weeping wing, it uses a fluid to de ice. Most small GA airplanes that are FIKI certified use TKS
Click to expand...

I believe without FIKI we can't plan a flight into known icing and it's more or less meant for "inadvertent" icing conditions?

But yes looks like Cirrus & Mooney are the only two real options for all the specs Im looking to find. Except the Cirrus with all the options seems to be another 100-150K more.
 
MileHigh said:
Quick peak on Controller, newest 210 listed is a 1986. I was expecting to see a lot more selection for 210s.
Click to expand...

I believe 1986 was the last year they made 210s so I'd be very surprised to see a newer one listed.
 
MileHigh said:
I believe without FIKI we can't plan a flight into known icing and it's more or less meant for "inadvertent" icing conditions?

But yes looks like Cirrus & Mooney are the only two real options for all the specs Im looking to find. Except the Cirrus with all the options seems to be another 100-150K more.
Click to expand...

I fly in ice for a better part of the year, I'd want boots and a turbine, otherwise F' that noise

ktup-flyer said:
Mark Patey's Lancair is for sale. Way cooler than a little mooney http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1412251/lancair-super-legacy
Click to expand...

That's a sexy beast, but a little expensive for what she is. I'd rather get a turbine thunder mustang

 
Last edited:
Not compared to a carbon fiber built turbine mustang.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's kind of a silly blanket statement.
Click to expand...

Baloney. An out of annual airplane is nothing more than a pile of aluminum and some wiring. Might be able to sell some of the avionics on Ebay. Not worth much at all. If it isn't in annual you have absolutely no idea what its going to take to get it airworthy. None. and by the way, there are squawks on Mooneys that are lethal. They cost more to fix than the airplane is ever likely to be worth. Maybe even for a Bravo. Besides, if its out of annual there's likely a reason, and it probably isn't a very good one. How well is an owner maintaining their aircraft when they let it get out of annual just as their selling it? Put another way, we often take the best care of something just as we're trying to get rid of it. We clean it up and make certain its working right. If the best someone can do for an airplane is sell it out of annual, I'd hate to see the worst.

Even buying an airplane in annual is no guarantee. Just because one mechanic said it passes mustard doesn't mean the next will. But at least your bet is hedged. Buying it out of annual is betting against the house with a weak hand. A game for fools, in my opinion.
 
Would not touch a Mooney with G1000... check the WAAS and ADSB upgrade path
 
steingar said:
Baloney. An out of annual airplane is nothing more than a pile of aluminum and some wiring. Might be able to sell some of the avionics on Ebay. Not worth much at all. If it isn't in annual you have absolutely no idea what its going to take to get it airworthy. None. and by the way, there are squawks on Mooneys that are lethal. They cost more to fix than the airplane is ever likely to be worth. Maybe even for a Bravo. Besides, if its out of annual there's likely a reason, and it probably isn't a very good one. How well is an owner maintaining their aircraft when they let it get out of annual just as their selling it? Put another way, we often take the best care of something just as we're trying to get rid of it. We clean it up and make certain its working right. If the best someone can do for an airplane is sell it out of annual, I'd hate to see the worst.

Even buying an airplane in annual is no guarantee. Just because one mechanic said it passes mustard doesn't mean the next will. But at least your bet is hedged. Buying it out of annual is betting against the house with a weak hand. A game for fools, in my opinion.
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Wow, new to aviation?

When I was out of the country I let my plane fall out of annual, no reason to pay for a annual for a plane sitting pickled in my hangar while I was half a world away, funny though, when I got back stateside it took a weekend to take that "scrap metal and wire" and turn it into a nice aircraft o_O

Like I said before, $2.50 a lb for any of these scrap metal planes which are 1 minute out of annual, PM me, my wallet and I are waiting lol
 
MileHigh said:
I believe without FIKI we can't plan a flight into known icing and it's more or less meant for "inadvertent" icing conditions?

But yes looks like Cirrus & Mooney are the only two real options for all the specs Im looking to find. Except the Cirrus with all the options seems to be another 100-150K more.
Click to expand...

Correct

And there are FIKI Certified TKS and non certified. If it was a factory option on the mooney the one owner may have just listed it as TKS if that was the factory option title , I'd recommend calling and seeing if it's certified FIKI or not. If it was factory installed I'd be willing to bet it is
 
James331 said:
Wow, new to aviation?

When I was out of the country I let my plane fall out of annual, no reason to pay for a annual for a plane sitting pickled in my hangar while I was half a world away, funny though, when I got back stateside it took a weekend to take that "scrap metal and wire" and turn it into a nice aircraft o_O

Like I said before, $2.50 a lb for any of these scrap metal planes which are 1 minute out of annual, PM me, my wallet and I are waiting lol
Click to expand...

Simple, genius. Yeah, you let your airplane get out of annual and got it back in. So why can't the guys for the OP's bravo do likewise? Sorry, I've seen too many of these hangar queens. if someone is trying to sell out of annual there's usually a reason, and usually not a good one.

Put another way, if you're trying to get top dollar for your airplane and inspection just isn't that big an investment to get the ball rolling. If you're unwilling to pony up for one that's saying something.
 
Update: On the Mooney I was looking at the seller agreed to get a fresh annual and ensure all ADs were complied with using a Mooney Service center.

I'm still debating between this Mooney and a fully loaded Cirrus
 
I'd take a mooney over a cirrus anyday
 
MileHigh said:
Update: On the Mooney I was looking at the seller agreed to get a fresh annual and ensure all ADs were complied with using a Mooney Service center.

I'm still debating between this Mooney and a fully loaded Cirrus
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I'd take the Mooney, but I am a bit biased. Remember, that Cirrus comes with a repack fee for the parachute. Of course, the Mooney has some extra systems to take care of. But the annual from a Mooney Service Center is a wonderful way to go. Mooneys maintained by service centers often sell for a premium.

Again, sit in one. If you like it, go for it. They're still the fastest piston singles out there.
 
Regarding Vref, I have found it somewhat useful both as a buyer and a seller. I recently sold an airplane to a person locally, who I knew (in Alaska, just before I moved south). I wanted to sell to him to avoid the whole advertising, showing the airplane, deals falling through sequence. He didn't wan't to use barnstormers/trade-a-plane/etc. pricing, because those are "asking" prices. I showed him the Vref numbers along with the barnstormers and other prices and we came up with a number that we both agreed to.
 
James331 said:
I'm not a vref fan.

That said for the kind of $$ you're talking, I'd be looking for a turbine conversion booted and pressurized 210.
Click to expand...

Still gonna be a few hundred thousand short for a Silver Eagle.
 
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