buying my first plane, need advice!

[mtuomi]

Try to find an older Mooney in your area to rent for a few hours with an instructor. You can pick up a really nice one for 40-50k depending on avionics. Fly 100kts @6gph or flight plan 135kts @10gph if you want to go faster.

That sounds awfully slow for a Mooney? An Arrow does that...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Question for the ol' pros: How do you factor freedom into the equation? Can you put a price on that?

As a fairly new pilot myself, and looking to buy, I find that we always discuss the fixed and hourly costs of owning versus the cost of renting, but rarely discuss the freedom associated with owning. Do any of you owners rent very often, or are there any of you who have recently made the transition from renting to ownership? I'm in roughly the same position as the OP, and I feel that becuase of the freedom that owning affords, I am willing to accept the higher cost of ownership. I would suggest that it's worth a piece of the conversation. It is that intangible that makes the owning v. renting comparison not exactly apples to apples.

You can't put a price on it.

Best you can do is total up the cost of ownership and decide for yourself - can you afford it and is it worth it?

As far as owning and renting, when I bought my first plane (Cessna 170) I kept my membership in Plus One (one of the largest flying clubs in the country). I bought the 170 because I wanted quick and easy access to a taildragger for timebuilding (the club didn't have any at my home field at the time). I flew it 75% of the time and rented either the twins or the 210 when I needed to get someplace fast or take my family on a trip.

When I moved to Virginia, the rental availability sucked so we bought the Baron for family hauling and recently added the Waco for fun tailwheel stuff. I haven't rented (or had a reason to) in 2 years.

 

[AKBill]

Everyone here has given sound advise Chris. If and when you purchase a plane consider getting a hanger. It will save you money in the long run. Keeping a plane tied down outside in the weather takes its toll on paint and increases the likely hood of corrosion over the years. I love the freedom of ownership that is why I purchased my plane some 18 years ago.

 

[stratobee]

Since I became an owner, I never rent. It's not in the cards. Even when she was down for 9 months for engine change. The thought of jumping in to a smelly flight school 172 fills me with dread.

 

[tonyhale]

You can get a decent Mooney M20C for around or under $50K, and it will do 140-145 knots at 10gph. Make sure you plan on annuals running $2500-4500 for "normal" stuff. Good useful load, and rock solid. Watch out for leaky tanks. Those who have never flown a Mooney like to talk about how cramped they are. Those of us that have owned one know better.

 

[SmashTime]

I fly anywhere from 40-80 hrs a year and I wouldn't rent.

I enjoy owning my own plane and the availability of it.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Question for the ol' pros: How do you factor freedom into the equation? Can you put a price on that?

As a fairly new pilot myself, and looking to buy, I find that we always discuss the fixed and hourly costs of owning versus the cost of renting, but rarely discuss the freedom associated with owning. Do any of you owners rent very often, or are there any of you who have recently made the transition from renting to ownership? I'm in roughly the same position as the OP, and I feel that becuase of the freedom that owning affords, I am willing to accept the higher cost of ownership. I would suggest that it's worth a piece of the conversation. It is that intangible that makes the owning v. renting comparison not exactly apples to apples.

Freedom IS money! If you purchase an airplane as a beginner, limited finances, low priced aircraft. You will know NO freedom! If your discussing " freedom" you'd better check your bank account and current cash flow first. Airplanes are money sewers for the most part and unforeseen expenses always, always occur. ( when you fly an aircraft over TBO , tie it down outside, etc. you got problems.)

 

[Marauder]

Ownership is not about saving money, unless you count paying ~$200/hr for 4 hours/day while it sits on the ground for a week at your vacation destination.(what most rentals will cost) Then you save a ton of cash by owning.
Ownership is about being able to go fly when the notion strikes, and at a moments notice, without the scheduling hassels, and not having to write a check to the FBO before you can go home, (unless your tiedown rent is due).

Bluerooster has it right about the flexibility ownership provides. Can't tell you the number of times in my rental days I heard; the plane is not available, the plane is in for its 100 hours, the plane is down, the plane is stuck at another airport due to weather. And then to top it off, when I did my pre-flight I found stuff broke. If freedom and flexibility are what you want, ownership gives you that.

Not always. Breakeven is usually somewhere around 100 hours per year. That said, the average one-owner light single flies a lot less than 100 hours a year.

That is exactly the number of hours what I calculated my break even point is. And after 24 years of ownership, it hasn't changed much one way or the other.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If your young , trying to get established, want to work hard towards a good career, your not going to be flying any one hundred hours a year. Weather and time will not be on your side. Best to rent until you have some hours and experience.

 

[Henning]

Hello y'all, I'm new here. My name is Chris and I just got my ppl back in August and I'm working on my ifr training now.

It has come the time to buy my first plane and I do not know where to start.

Let me tell you a little about me, I have only flown cessna 152 &172. I feel very comfortable flying them as well as safe.
I'm looking for a 4 seater not a 2 seater so the 152 is out the question.
I'm looking for a 8 gph plane... 12 to 15 would make it too expensive for me.
Should I look into 182 also? It's a more powerful engine and an extra lever to think about (propeller)
I need a good ifr plane, what ifr avionics should I look for? Do I need auto pilot and which one?
When I started my research, people suggest piper Cherokee, warrior or archer as well. Since I've never flown them should I be against them?
my thinking is that I can always upgrade when the time comes. My budget is 50-60k.
Well, let's start with that...
I'm open to all suggestions and tips.
Thanks in advance, Chris.

Pick one of the 180-200hp 4 seaters. Cherokee 180/Archer, Cessna Cardinal, C-172 w/180 conversion (the late model factory 180s I understand don't have as much useful load as when you convert an old one, but have not fully researched it as I would get the Cardinal), Mooney 20 (not the short body if you want to use the back seat), Grumman Tiger, Beech Sundowner.

Some people believe you need an autopilot, I'm ambivalent towards them. In 2500 hours I have less than 100 with a properly functioning autopilot, and that is in only 2 planes with really high maintenance standards and the accompanying bills. Autopilots are not cheap to buy or keep working. From what I see, autopilots are second only to engines in maintenance costs, and it's not always a big difference with some autopilots.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I agree with the "rent for a while" crowd. Unless you fly 100+hrs a year, it will NOT make financial sense in almost all typical sole-ownership situations. You can estimate what the intangible value of having exclusive access to your own aircraft, but that varies from person to person and isn't transferable for comparison. You can roughly estimate the overnight rental fees or other ancillary expenses that you wouldn't have to deal with as an owner, but unless you have frequent overnights/extended rentals, it won't likely touch even a few months hangar rentals.

That being said I would love to be an owner if it were financially viable for me. While aviation here in Tulsa is still relatively vibrant, the options for rentals are limited to 152/172/172RG at any of the places I know of. If there were a 182 or PA32 available for rent, I'd be in hog heaven.

 

[Henning]

I agree with the "rent for a while" crowd. Unless you fly 100+hrs a year, it will NOT make financial sense in almost all typical sole-ownership situations. You can estimate what the intangible value of having exclusive access to your own aircraft, but that varies from person to person and isn't transferable for comparison. You can roughly estimate the overnight rental fees or other ancillary expenses that you wouldn't have to deal with as an owner, but unless you have frequent overnights/extended rentals, it won't likely touch even a few months hangar rentals.

That being said I would love to be an owner if it were financially viable for me. While aviation here in Tulsa is still relatively vibrant, the options for rentals are limited to 152/172/172RG at any of the places I know of. If there were a 182 or PA32 available for rent, I'd be in hog heaven.

That is a major problem with being a renter in most markets any more, if you need more than a basic plane, there just isn't one available for rent. If I lived in San Diego and had Plus One Flyers available to me, I wouldn't have any need to own. That's the only market I am familiar with that I have that kind of rental option. Dallas in the 70s was a great rental market with P-51s, F-4U, P-47, and several other WWII warbirds for rent.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That is a major problem with being a renter in most markets any more, if you need more than a basic plane, there just isn't one available for rent. If I lived in San Diego and had Plus One Flyers available to me, I wouldn't have any need to own. That's the only market I am familiar with that I have that kind of rental option. Dallas in the 70s was a great rental market with P-51s, F-4U, P-47, and several other WWII warbirds for rent.

I agree. It's just too difficult to find a high-performance single to rent. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any non-172 flying clubs either, so I'll just rent until I decide to bite the bullet. On the bright side, there are at least 2 airports within 30 minutes drive that have t-hangars for $100/mo or so, it wouldn't be too bad in that department.

 

[dell30rb]

Partnership is a great alternative.

 

[TazzyTazzy]

Partnership is a great alternative.

I hope I don't want to side track the OP to much, but the OP should really consider this. Even getting one partner, your initial investment, hanger fees,annuals, another other fixed costs are cut in half. After you decide on what plane you want and/or planes you are ok with, find a partner to go 'halvsies' with.

My buddy and I are looking for a third partner to go in on a Mooney. Our thinking is, with 3 people going into it, there's still plenty of availability but the cost of ownership is greatly reduced. I know someone in a 10-way partnership and he said the plane is nearly available whenever he wants it.

We've come up with a rotating schedule for priority of who can take the bird out. If you numbered every week of the calendar 1-52.. It would go something like this:

week 1: Bill Primary, Mary Secondary, Mark last priority.
week 2: Mary Primary, Mark Secondary, Bill last
week 3: Mark Primary, Bill Secondary, Mary last.
...Rinse and repeat...

Then, if you want to go, and you're primary, you can just take the bird if you haven't released it to anyone. A private twitter feed or mail list is perfect for this - just check if someone took it out.

We didn't think a first come first serve is best because if Mary works 4x10 and gets Fridays off, she can pretty much have the weekends as she would usually be first to the plane.

We also didn't like to schedule - then you'll end up with someone scheduling every weekend for the next 12 months.

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . . We've come up with a rotating schedule for priority of who can take the bird out. If you numbered every week of the calendar 1-52.. It would go something like this . . .
We also didn't like to schedule - then you'll end up with someone scheduling every weekend for the next 12 months.

As with any partnership/flying club, whatever method you use is fine as long as everyone agrees with it. Same goes for having a good contractual agreement in place for financial considerations and even operational standards. I understand not wanting to use a schedule, but online scheduling options are great, and alleviate most of the email chains. A simple limitation on how far out you can schedule or advanced notice for a reservation past the agreed-upon limit probably fixes those "every weekend for a year" problems. The rotating schedule you mentioned could also be a great tool for breaking ties for who gets the aircraft when there are two or more people looking to schedule on a particular date.

 

[weilke]

Partnership is a great alternative.

Took three pages for someone to suggest the most viable option given the parameters.

When it is a nice weekend coming up but one of my partners has the plane already committed, I would love to own the plane outright.
When it came to writing the check for a FWF overhaul, I was glad there were a couple of others to share in the joy.

 

[weilke]

We've come up with a rotating schedule for priority of who can take the bird out. If you numbered every week of the calendar 1-52.. It would go something like this:

week 1: Bill Primary, Mary Secondary, Mark last priority.
week 2: Mary Primary, Mark Secondary, Bill last
week 3: Mark Primary, Bill Secondary, Mary last.
...Rinse and repeat...

That is great if it works for you. At our annual meeting in december, we draw numbers from a hat and go around the room with everyone picking a week at a time until all the weeks are gone. That way, everyone pretty much has the weeks he knows that he wants, sometimes that includes 2 week blocks for someone to go to the Caymans etc. Just a different way to skin the cat. Has been working for 20 years.

 

[Henning]

Took three pages for someone to suggest the most viable option given the parameters.

When it is a nice weekend coming up but one of my partners has the plane already committed, I would love to own the plane outright.
When it came to writing the check for a FWF overhaul, I was glad there were a couple of others to share in the joy.

Well, a partner is a secondary issue. The best way I have seen to go about it is to buy the plane you want and put it in the condition you want it, then sell shares. That way everybody buying in is on the same page as to what they want, and you get to set the standard.

 

[weilke]

Well, a partner is a secondary issue. The best way I have seen to go about it is to buy the plane you want and put it in the condition you want it, then sell shares. That way everybody buying in is on the same page as to what they want, and you get to set the standard.

If someone has the capital to do that, sure that is one way to go about it. It requires the ability to hold the plane without partners for however long it taks to find the 2 people who are the right fit. For someone without prior ownership experience, joining an existing partnership tends to be the lower risk approach.

 

[Henning]

If someone has the capital to do that, sure that is one way to go about it. It requires the ability to hold the plane without partners for however long it taks to find the 2 people who are the right fit. For someone without prior ownership experience, joining an existing partnership tends to be the lower risk approach.

IF an appropriate partnership is available, I would certainly agree. Unfortunately I am not seeing those opportunities an great quantity.

 

[N2124v]

If it floats, flies, or fornicates, it is cheaper to rent......

That being said, I bought a 1970 Mooney M20E at the end of September because I was having a hard time finding the motivation and time to drive 45 minutes to rent a plane... So far I have spent around $3500 on an annual and some surprise maintenance issues (new mags and wiring harness). I also know that coming up in about 6 months I want to replace the landing gear shock discs (probably about $1500). So I'm looking at within the first year spending about $6k getting the plane up to where I want it to be maintenance wise. I learned a long time ago not to cheap out on maintenance and try to plan as best you can for things. Do what you can to remove the surprise factor and find a good mechanic that you work well with. Good luck! It's worth it!

 

[saulico]

week 1: Bill Primary, Mary Secondary, Mark last priority.
week 2: Mary Primary, Mark Secondary, Bill last
week 3: Mark Primary, Bill Secondary, Mary last.
...Rinse and repeat...

We came up with a similar arrangement. Only my partners are named Me, Myself and Moi.

week 1: Me Primary, Myself Secondary, Moi last priority.
week 2: Myself Primary, Moi Secondary, Me last
week 3: Moi Primary, Me Secondary, Myself last.
...Rinse and repeat...

 

[Henning]

If it floats, flies, or fornicates, it is cheaper to rent.

Well, that depends on what quality you rent and how often. There is always a point in utilization that sole proprietorships are the most economical and efficient. It used to always be figured at around 100 hrs a year made the case for ownership advantage.

I think these days the most efficient model is in the 3-5 way partnerships. If we could get a nation wide rental fleet you could fly nearly anywhere one way, that would trump everything.

 

[Alexb2000]

I think these days the most efficient model is in the 3-5 way partnerships. If we could get a nation wide rental fleet you could fly nearly anywhere one way, that would trump everything.

That may be true of women, but the OP is asking about buying an aircraft.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is a major problem with being a renter in most markets any more, if you need more than a basic plane, there just isn't one available for rent. If I lived in San Diego and had Plus One Flyers available to me, I wouldn't have any need to own. That's the only market I am familiar with that I have that kind of rental option.

There are a few others, depending on what kind of options you want. The Denver market has multiple flight schools with everything from 2-place light sports to 6-seat A36s and FIKI Cirri, although if one is looking for 6 seats, it becomes a difficult proposition.

That kind of availability is the thing I miss most in my move to North Carolina.