Buying first plane... Broker?

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Todd82

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Todd
After running into a couple road blocks on looking for my first plane, and admittedly not being the type of guy who can do his own A&P / prebuy work himself, I'm wondering if anyone has ever dealt with a broker for their purchase?

Sure there are a ton of brokers selling planes just in my region alone (DAY/CVG area) but I'm talking one who has my best interests as a buyer not one who is basically just a used car salesman trying to unload the next bucket of bolts.

I'm not looking for a half million dollar turbine, just a run of the mill VFR 4 place in the low $30s max. Just trying to prevent getting in a circle of paying for multiple prebuys only to find multiple hunks of junk. So would consulting with someone like that be a waste of money for me on such a "cheap" plane or worth it? Any advice?
 
I just bought a ~$100k plane and if I had to do it again I would have gotten a buyers broker in a heartbeat, it was just too much of a pain in the ass. A possibility for you might be something like Savvy's Prebuy who will look over the logs for free and then manage the pre-buy and advise on the sale for a fee if you decide to move forward. Alternatively find a friend/mechanic who knows the type and pay them a bit to review the logs and history and perhaps accompany you on a pre-pre-buy before you shell out for an actual 'inspection'.
 
Yes, a broker is worth it. In addition, if you have focused on a specific model/type find a couple of shops who specialize in the model. They often are willing to provide a fair amount of information about the model, and even may know of a nice cherry plane which has not hit the market yet.

Tim
 
Get Keith Hansen from virtualairplanebroker . Look it up. I hired his as a buyers agent and will do it again if need be. He made my buying process easy. If the plane is far off, he has a ATP that can either ferry it or u can go and fly back with him

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What you need is a mechanic that can inspect the airplane. He uses his own compression gauge and doesn't know the owner or the owners mechanic. Have him look for corrosion too. The problem with brokers, is they want you to buy the plane. They are going to tell you its alright even if it isn't. The problem is "politics". The mechanics on the field know the owner and know "he can throw his weight around" or whatever. They have a history together. You and your mechanic don't. I did the corrosion inspection on the airplanes I bought and had a mechanic do the compression test. Best thing is to do something to distract the seller or his representative. Or just tell them they cant observe the compression test. A lot of monkey business around that compression test.
 
I'll go against the grain here. Setting aside high-end turbo-props and jets, I personally think that someone with a little motivation to educate themselves has no need for a broker. I don't think these transactions are that difficult or complicated, and there's a TON of information available online you can use to learn the ropes. A good pre-buy mechanic can cover that side of things, and the rest, I don't think, is that difficult. A little education and common sense will go a long way.
 
bradg33 said:
I'll go against the grain here. Setting aside high-end turbo-props and jets, I personally think that someone with a little motivation to educate themselves has no need for a broker. I don't think these transactions are that difficult or complicated, and there's a TON of information available online you can use to learn the ropes. A good pre-buy mechanic can cover that side of things, and the rest, I don't think, is that difficult. A little education and common sense will go a long way.
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Don't sell yourself short. Your advice is not going against the grain. Most of us just don't wish to rehash your stated position, and repeat ourselves on thread after thread on this board. I've never used the services of a broker as a buyer or seller. I don't enjoy the transaction process of buying/selling airplanes, but I haven't had the need for them. So you're not alone in your position, rest assured. :)
 
I'd pay to join the owner's group (assuming you even have to pay) of the model I was interested in buying before I hired a broker. The wealth of info available at the type-specific owners group forums is incredible. There you may also get to know people who are selling one, about to, or know someone who is.
 
I hired a broker when I was looking for an arrow. It was my first plane and I would hire a broker again in a heartbeat for the second plane. I could have certainly gone out there and bought an arrow on my own, but the broker had the experience to sift the wheat from the chafe. In my case there was a really nice arrow out in California that I was looking at that had everything 430 waas, gami injectors, engine monitor, etc. In prebuy, there was a questionable repair done to the spar. My broker had the experience and contacts to research that repair and determine it was a no go item. I would have bought the plane thinking it could be repaired (after adjusting the price). That arrow ended up being parted out due to the extent of the issue. If you pick the right broker, it is really nice to have that un-emotionally attached opinion on your side. Notice I said right broker. Someone just looking to get a sale made and move on is a very bad thing. I ended up buying an arrow out of Arkansas with much better bones. Surround yourself with good counsel. Best advice I was ever given.
 
I don't see how a broker adds value for a buyer. What you need is a mechanic that you trust. If that mechanic is also a pilot? Better yet.
 
Stewartb said:
I don't see how a broker adds value for a buyer. What you need is a mechanic that you trust. If that mechanic is also a pilot? Better yet.
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If you hire a broker to act specifically as a buyer's agent as some have suggested, it does add value. Whether that value is worth the fee can only really be answered by the individual. What is value to you or me isn't necessarily the same as a first time buyer.
 
coloradobluesky said:
What you need is a mechanic that can inspect the airplane. He uses his own compression gauge and doesn't know the owner or the owners mechanic. Have him look for corrosion too. The problem with brokers, is they want you to buy the plane. They are going to tell you its alright even if it isn't. The problem is "politics". The mechanics on the field know the owner and know "he can throw his weight around" or whatever. They have a history together. You and your mechanic don't. I did the corrosion inspection on the airplanes I bought and had a mechanic do the compression test. Best thing is to do something to distract the seller or his representative. Or just tell them they cant observe the compression test. A lot of monkey business around that compression test.
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Bingo.... regarding your own mechanic.. and the owner not being there...

3 in the green said:
I'd pay to join the owner's group (assuming you even have to pay) of the model I was interested in buying before I hired a broker. The wealth of info available at the type-specific owners group forums is incredible. There you may also get to know people who are selling one, about to, or know someone who is.
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This too!!!! Found a local pilot that was very knowledgeable about on particular aircraft and hooked me up with an A&P that really knew the plane and gave me pretty good schooling on some initial questions to ask...
 
Todd82 said:
After running into a couple road blocks on looking for my first plane, and admittedly not being the type of guy who can do his own A&P / prebuy work himself, I'm wondering if anyone has ever dealt with a broker for their purchase?

Sure there are a ton of brokers selling planes just in my region alone (DAY/CVG area) but I'm talking one who has my best interests as a buyer not one who is basically just a used car salesman trying to unload the next bucket of bolts.

I'm not looking for a half million dollar turbine, just a run of the mill VFR 4 place in the low $30s max. Just trying to prevent getting in a circle of paying for multiple prebuys only to find multiple hunks of junk. So would consulting with someone like that be a waste of money for me on such a "cheap" plane or worth it? Any advice?
Click to expand...

First plane I tried to purchase I went through a broker. The one I actually bought however, was through a private seller.

Brokers are out to do two things : Sell the plane and sell the plane for a lot of cash.

If you are working with a broker, definitely use an escrow account and your OWN purchase agreement. Insist on it. Or, if they want you to use theirs, make sure the terms are spelled out very clearly so you have an out in the event the plane is not up to snuff. And that out should include any money you've put up to acquire it.

A lot of the agreements are worded so that you lose the deposit, or are even stuck with the plane unless something catastrophic is discovered on a pre-buy. Also make sure you have your own person do the pre-buy, not some good ol' buddy of the broker. And, preferably at a different airport. Plane's gotta fly to get there right?

I learned a LOT about the purchasing process when I bought my plane 2 years back. I have since sold it and that was also a learning experience.
 
Do a compression test before you give him any escrow money. I like "either side can back out at any time" because I don't want to worry about getting my escrow back. He doesnt have any. The momentum is on the buyers side. But I suppose, if you really want to dicker over the "fixes". Offer the plane as a creampuff everything working price. Agree to that price LESS the amount to deduct for each squawk. But get the showstoppers out of the way first (ike the engine doesnt make over 60 (Lycoming)) No monkey business "holding an offer hostage". Both sides give and take. "OK, but you OWE ME ONE NOW" is RESPECTED. I'd dicker in good faith. If there really is something wrong. Youre gonna not agree on each of those points though. Its going to be .... well, a lot of negotiating. Hope you like each other. Have a drink together when its done. Stay at my house a night, what the hell, be my friend....

Ha ha, its been DONE!

Chances are pretty good you are going to have to fix something in the first few months... (i got a flat)
 
Van Bortel used to offer to deliver it on your ramp, as described. I think you have to pay them the full amount first. That might be exciting!
 
For first time plane buyers like me and not enough experience with aviation, a buyers agent , the right one helps , beyond a doubt. I have first hand experience. I will get flamed for saying this, and I do not recommend this, but I bought my plane without running a compression test. I did it due to multiple reasons, primary because of the agent I hired, the ATP that went with me to do a pre-buy, he hand propped it and said it was pretty darn good. He has been doing this for about 20 yrs along with my agent who is doing this for 30 yrs. Today my mechanic did the compression test, it came back all 78. I m not telling anyone to buy a plane without doing due diligence , just sharing my experience. Along with the agent I also had enough enough information and background of the buyer and I was pretty much sure he wasn't cheating me. So there is that. And the fact that there was another local buyer, who knew the plane,ready to pay full asking price and a premium to get the plane, the only reason I could buy is, because my agent got a purchase agreement signed, without any deposit from me, less than the asking price. Moral of the story is, if u hire the right agent, makes ur life a lot painless. Paying a set amount to my agent was the best decision I had made and I will do it again in a heartbeat

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coloradobluesky said:
Van Bortel used to offer to deliver it on your ramp, as described. I think you have to pay them the full amount first. That might be exciting!
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All of their ad's on controller say "We fly the aircraft to your ramp for inspection by you
and your mechanics at no cost or obligation to you."
 
ktup-flyer said:
All of their ad's on controller say "We fly the aircraft to your ramp for inspection by you
and your mechanics at no cost or obligation to you."
Click to expand...
Some of their planes are also pretty overpriced

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WannFly said:
Some of their planes are also pretty overpriced

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You are paying for the higher level of service. e.g. flying the plane to you. That is not cheap.

Tim
 
How do the brokers get compensated typically and around how much? Do they negotiate the prices down effectively?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Van Bortel used to offer to deliver it on your ramp, as described. I think you have to pay them the full amount first. That might be exciting!
Click to expand...
They brought out my 310R for a pre-buy after we agreed to price, but I didn't send the money until after I had my guys look at it. The only thing they could find wrong was the marker beacon wasn't working, because the mechanic didn't know how to turn them on! I don't think the OP is looking for a Van Bortel price airplane. :D
 
I used a broker on my first purchase. I paid him direct, the fee was structured as a flat fee based on the purchase price range.
And yes, he actually negotiated a lower price, likely better than I could have, which more then paid for the fee.

Tim
 
N747JB said:
I don't think the OP is looking for a Van Bortel price airplane. :D
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I don't see any $30k Cherokees in their inventory.

And that's what I was getting at, for my price range is it worth it? It seems the opinions are mixed. I've got an A&P IA buddy from work, but he spends most his time deployed for us and not able to do that.
 
If your price is low, the broker fee will be low(er) also. I've never bought, but from what I've seen advertised is like 5% or so?
For a first step, you might call the guy WannFly recommends. Ask him about planes in your price range and see what he suggests, and what he would charge.
And as mentioned, if he can negotiate a deal, he pays for himself. And if he can prevent you from accidentally buying a money pit, then he's pure gold.
The other options mentioned are also great advice.
Get on the forums of the plane type and ask questions and educate yourself on what to look for...and start looking.
I'm a super nit picky inspector of things...but even so, being so green to planes and aviation I'd still want an experienced lead man of some sort.
So to answer your question, is the 30k range worth it... I'd say yes. But that's my opinion.
Good luck!
 
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IF you use someone then definitely a buyers agent only. The owner can attend the pre-buy but preferably not. I bought from a private individual from him contacting me privately after seeing my questions on a type forum. The ONLY problems were due to my financing playing some games in timing but otherwise a very easy deal. We used AeroSpace reports in OKC and was worth every penny. They did all of the title search, records search and accident reports and the actual escrow transfers and walked the paperwork to the FAA.

My son is dealing with a broker from VA right now (J...k's) and they failed to send the contract to him for three days and magically another buyer showed up with a higher bid. I told him to walk.
 
cowman said:
How do the brokers get compensated typically and around how much? Do they negotiate the prices down effectively?
Click to expand...

referring to a buyers agent here, specifically the one i hired. he has a set amount for planes under 100k. more than 100k, its 2%. you pay 50% in when u hire and rest when u got the plane. since its a set amount, he has absolutely no reason to find a plane closer to 99k. from my experience, the price negotiation that he did, it paid for his fees, the ATP fees for flying with me halfway across the country and 80% of the associated expenses of the trip - food, hotel, airline ticket for ATP to go back etc
 
3 in the green said:
They also offer a "purchase protection plan" that seems interesting. I wonder if anyone has (or knows anyone that has) gone through this process and returned the aircraft.

http://www.vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/purchase-protection-plan
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The Purchase Protection Plan is setup for our (Van Bortel's) customers. The idea behind it is if the customer is not happy with the airplane they purchased we would just assume have it back and sell it to someone else. In fact, I had a customer purchase a 2015 T206 last month as his first airplane (he hires a pilot to fly him around), after a few flights he thought it to be a bit small for his mission profile, and returned it for a full refund. He is happy as can be with a larger airplane he bought elsewhere, and we have a great relationship with him. When he does decide to learn to fly I'm sure I'll be hearing from him. Feel free to PM me and I will send you a couple buyer's contact info that have exercised it. Hope this helps!
 
That sounds generous. And in business deals generosity isn't right. Seems to me the buyer should be willing to pay for the hours he used. I'd consider that fair if the hourly fee is fair. You let him use it, he tried it out. Guy has the money. He should pay his way. He had to insure it and had to pay for that. Just my comment. Its not my business. Just an observation. If you want, Ill gladly charge for my advice! :) (then it might be worth something to you)
 
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WannFly said:
Some of their planes are also pretty overpriced

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Click to expand...

I disagree.

Van Bortel sells premium used aircraft and provides a service level commensurate with that. The planes are detailed to the nines, you'll be hard pressed to find snags of any kind, the documentation is complete, they don't sell anything remotely resembling "well used" and all that naturally comes at a price.

That appeals to a certain cohort of buyers who value that and are willing to pay for it. I'm not one of their customers, but I think it's valuable to have reputable purveyors of airplane's that cater to those buyers too. Having dealt with a few nitwit alleged "sellers" of airplane's, and wasted my time on mis-represented airplanes, I can understand some people deciding they would rather avoid that whole scene.
 
Yes, I was entirely pleased with a broker. He was an experienced pilot who did a plane search for me, and his fee included his review of the logs for each of the planes he found, test flight, with feedback from the mechanic he used.
 
I'm on my 6th plane...bought them all "myself", without a buyer's broker...I found it ridiculously easy.
Sooooo, I don't understand: what does a buyer's broker do? Why would I need one? What am I missing?
 
My Van Bortel experience-
They had a nice Comanche for sale. Priced reasonable, good radios, blah blah. I call them up. Great lady helps me, She says there is some light hail damage, but hasnt seen the plane in person. I make an offer and its accepted. She says before we get too far, let me send you some pictures. The hail damage was bad. On the control surfaces, everywhere. I tell her I want to back out.
She agrees and no harm no foul.

So its a great dealer, great people. Like they want you to be happy type people.
Feel like I was let down with the "light" hail damage, but they did make it right and was on my side of things.

I would buy from them in a heartbeat.
 
I don't think the question should whether to use a broker or not. If you don't feel comfortable going through the process yourself, then a broker is a good idea.

I think the real question should be how to find a good/honest broker. I thought the broker I used in the Daytona Beach area did a great job both selling my old plane and helping me buy a new one. I would recommend him, but I think you should use a broker closer to your home.
 
Why am I using a broker?
He has personal contacts and friends that can find planes that arent on the market yet. There has been several planes I sent him ad's for, that he either knew the salesperson personally or even knew the plane. That cuts down on the noise and sales pitches.
He is retired, so he has more time to hunt for what I am looking for and to make calls during a work day.
His fee will probably save me that much and more in money. But also stress. Not to mention his experience on what a good plane purchase is over a shady one. Already had 2 fall through because they were hiding information that I didnt think to ask.
His knowledge of the type since he has been an owner of one for over 30 years is worth it.
And he is fun to talk to about planes and what I am looking for, to guide me to a good plane for my mission.

YMMV
 
coloradobluesky said:
That sounds generous. And in business deals generosity isn't right. Seems to me the buyer should be willing to pay for the hours he used. I'd consider that fair if the hourly fee is fair. You let him use it, he tried it out. Guy has the money. He should pay his way. He had to insure it and had to pay for that. Just my comment. Its not my business. Just an observation. If you want, Ill gladly charge for my advice! :) (then it might be worth something to you)
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He actually offered, almost even begged, to cover the expenses. Our agreement from the beginning was a "100% money-back guarantee", and I wasn't about to alter that agreement just because he did in fact decide to return it. It is a small percentage of customers that actually bring the airplane back, but if it's not the right airplane for them, we welcome it. At the end of the day, the 15 hours he put on the airplane to see if it would work for his mission profile wasn't that big of a deal.
 
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Here is a little of my insight on brokers. If you decide to use a broker, I would find a guy that is an expert in THE model airplane you are looking to purchase. He would then be able to provide insight on the market trends of that particular model over the years, and can give you a really good idea on how it does in regards to value retention vs. just scouring the market and getting an idea of current prices (anybody can do that). There are a lot of brokers that will represent everything from a 150 to a King Air, and you just have to ask, how much does he really know about all of those airplanes?
While I'm on my rant, there is one other thing to be cautious about. It's what we call double-dipping. You are paying this broker to assure you get a good airplane. You would be astounded to learn how many of them also ask the dealer or owner for a "finder's fee" which will not be disclosed to you. That finders fee, which is typically $2,000 or more, ends up coming out of your pocket as it gets budgeted into the negotiations. I've had a couple guys tell me in the past that if we pay them a finders fee, they will also help "push the sale through pre-buy". Now who are they working for? Hearing that made me want to throw up in my mouth at the sheer thought of the deception to their client.
As far as inspections, unless that broker is an A&P or IA, I don't know that I would trust that person solely with the reviewing of the logbooks. Let a good mechanic do that. Damage history is easy to spot, and again, just about anybody can do that, but also knowing the status of ADs, SBs and good routine maintenance is very important. A mechanic that knows that airplane well will be very familiar with its intricacies/ recurring issues in regards to maintenance and will know what to look for.
Lastly, in my opinion, purchasing an airplane is definitely something that can be done yourself. Get an agreement at the price you are comfortable with, get the airplane to a shop that knows THAT airplane, use escrow to assure clear title (we find a lot of old liens hanging out there from decades ago), and fly off into the sunset!
 
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