Buying certificated vs. experimental

TexasAviation

TexasAviation

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TexasAviation
I'm still building up my airplane savings fund with the goal of buying something in the $40k-$60k range in the next 18-24 months. It would go a lot faster if I could bring myself to stop flying so dang much in the club rental! :)

I've been leaning towards certificated for lots of reasons. I'm a busy guy and don't have the time/interest to build my own experimental. I like the safety factor of certificated planes (although I bet the experimental crowd would say this is arguable). And, since I've got three kids, I'm leaning toward something like a Cherokee Six that could hold the whole family.

But some things about certificated planes drive me CRAZY. Example: The power trim switch on the club Archer's yoke is broken and won't move. The replacement part, something that would probably cost a couple of bucks max at Radio Shack, lists for a whopping $1,000. It's insane.

Experimentals sure start to look appealing at times like that.

Just curious what thoughts people have on this.
 
TexasAviation said:
But some things about certificated planes drive me CRAZY. Example: The power trim switch on the club Archer's yoke is broken and won't move. The replacement part, something that would probably cost a couple of bucks max at Radio Shack, lists for a whopping $1,000. It's insane.
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Better get use to it if you buy certified. :dunno:

I just bought an engine heater for my RV-8. Cost $30, for the certified version $185.

I can run car gas and save $16 per hour over 100LL.

Condition inspections cost me $200.

See my signature for my safety data point. :D
 
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What experimental comes near the size of a Cherokee 6 anywhere near $50k?

The difference between a certified and experimental? Paperwork.
 
TexasAviation said:
I'm still building up my airplane savings fund with the goal of buying something in the $40k-$60k range in the next 18-24 months. It would go a lot faster if I could bring myself to stop flying so dang much in the club rental! :)

I've been leaning towards certificated for lots of reasons. I'm a busy guy and don't have the time/interest to build my own experimental. I like the safety factor of certificated planes (although I bet the experimental crowd would say this is arguable). And, since I've got three kids, I'm leaning toward something like a Cherokee Six that could hold the whole family.

But some things about certificated planes drive me CRAZY. Example: The power trim switch on the club Archer's yoke is broken and won't move. The replacement part, something that would probably cost a couple of bucks max at Radio Shack, lists for a whopping $1,000. It's insane.

Experimentals sure start to look appealing at times like that.

Just curious what thoughts people have on this.
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Experimental will be cheaper to acquire, but may not be materially cheaper to maintain if you're not willing to do your own work. Getting an A&P willing to work on it, and to install un-approved parts (even though approval isn't necessary) might be a struggle depending on your area. I can see some A&Ps refusing to install unapproved parts for liability reasons, even if legal.

Also, if your budget is $40-60k, you won't be looking at any 4-seat experimentals, nor will be be looking at a Cherokee 6 (at least not one that's in flying condition). A decent PA32 is closer to $100k than it is $60k.
 
The problem that you already half hit on and stated by wanting a Cherokee six OP is experimentals by nature are small. They're little airplanes.

Matter of fact, I can't think of many experimental family haulers except for an RV-10 which is still kinda small, or maybe a Comp-air 7 or 8.

Maybe a Lancair EVO but it's a million bucks. :dunno:
 
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bradg33 said:
Experimental will be cheaper to acquire, but may not be materially cheaper to maintain if you're not willing to do your own work. Getting an A&P willing to work on it, and to install un-approved parts (even though approval isn't necessary) might be a struggle depending on your area. I can see some A&Ps refusing to install unapproved parts for liability reasons, even if legal.

Also, if your budget is $40-60k, you won't be looking at any 4-seat experimentals, nor will be be looking at a Cherokee 6 (at least not one that's in flying condition). A decent PA32 is closer to $100k than it is $60k.
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I don't need as many seats, but I really love the RV-9. My issue is, for every one A&P I can find that will work on the RV-9, there are a dozen local A&Ps that can fix a Cherokee 236.
 
I wouldn't build, I'd buy where I wanted her, or at least 90% there.

Certified or experimental, as long as I didn't need to make money with the plane.

There are some experimental warbirds out there too.
 
I'm still kicking myself for not picking up a PA-20 that we someone converted to experimental. Would have been a great plane for me.
 
bnt83 said:
What experimental comes near the size of a Cherokee 6 anywhere near $50k?

The difference between a certified and experimental? Paperwork.
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A Lancair Evolution is an Experimental...300ktas, pressurized. But the cost is far outside of his budget and likely mission.

The big question is resale, warranty (if new) and insurance. Certifieds are better in all three, but you pay for what you get.
 
Yeah, four-seat experimentals will be out of my price range. And Cherokee Six would be a stretch, I know. Trade-a-Plane lists several under $60k, but Lord knows what kind of shape they're in.

So how do you convert a certificated plane to experimental? That sounds like a great option for me.
 
Cherokee 6 is a great plane and will haul a lot. As others have said, I don't know of a comparable experimental. I do love the RV10, but it's a 4 seater and nowhere near 60k. I was looking at Cherokee 6's for a while. I saw some decent ones listed around 80. Nothing really nice near 60, but I guess it depends on what you're looking to buy.
 
Not sure of your experience level (as a pilot) but I am going to assume that because you are posting in here, you are either a student or a low-time PP. My apologies if that assumption is incorrect.

I went through a similar dilemma and ended up buying a '66 C182J this March. I have two kids so I only needed four seats, but I am a bigger guy (230) so with a wife and the kids growing I needed a true four place (as opposed to something with four seats that I'd have to fly on 10 gallons of fuel due to lack of useful load). I found the following-

-for anyone with low time/still wet PP cert, many experimentals would be expensive to insure, or not possible at all. Admittedly I didn't explore this really in depth as only the RV (10 I think, the four place) would really fit my mission and be within my skill envelope at this point. That info was from briefly asking around.

-Yes, certificated aircraft are absolutely stupid on parts prices. Examples are endless, but I just had my first annual. New exhaust didn't surprise me much (just under 2k), but was still ridiculous. More ridiculous was the bearing for the inside door latch handle, which was over 400.00 for what is essentially a 2" diameter sheet metal washer with a collar. Equally ridiculous was the bar that keeps the door from over-extending (mine was missing) and it was 500.00+ for a plastic bar about 4" long with a metal core. I chose to just buy door stewards for 300.

-The upside to a certificated aircraft is that many will sell for a good price (minus much of what you put into it). I don't know that I'd buy a used experimental unless I really knew the builder, and/or it was one of the factory assisted builds.

-Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the repairman's cert (allowing the owner to work on the experimental) is only available to the builder. Add to that the fact that many A&P's/IA's I talked to wouldn't touch an experimental because they didn't want their name attached to unknown construction.

-My decision came to the point where I determined that I would buy the 182 and use it while my kids were still in the house. Once they move out, my wife and I will determine whether we want to (a) keep the 182, (b) sell it and buy a certificated aircraft where fun becomes the primary goal due to just being us using it (older stick and rudder taildragger, one of the Grumman low wing series (Cheetah etc), etc or (c) get and build an experimental such as a Glasair Sportsman, RV series, etc. I would build it so I could get the repairman's cert and I like those types of projects.

-Regardless, get a good prebuy! I thought I was and it turns out the prebuy was lousy. He missed several things that my IA (at annual) remarked any A&P (even a newbie) should have caught. Thjis IA is also reluctant to badmouth other A&P's, but he admitted that most of these items truly should have been caught. Add this to the pencil whipped AD in the logbook that wasn't caught, and my rookie plane buying status, and I ended up spending about 3-4k at annual that I should have been aware of pre-purchase. I got really lucky and got a solid aircraft overall in terms of airframe and engine, but there were numerous expensive parts that should have been caught.

Most of all, enjoy! I cannot express how nice it is that (barring being down for MX) I can drive to a hangar, preflight, get in my plane that was like I left it, and go fly without getting onto a rental schedule, etc.
 
I don't see you finding a plane in your budget that will seat/carry 5 people. Your best options would be a C210 or Cherokee 6. Both are probably way beyond your $60K. Experimental's are certainly out of the question. If all you need are two seats, then the RV line is an excellent way to go. If you want the flexibility to carry all 3 kids but leave Mom at home, then any 4 seat certificated will work. And there are lots of options in the $60K range.

I waited until the kids were off to college then bought a Mooney.
 
Omalley1537 said:
-Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the repairman's cert (allowing the owner to work on the experimental) is only available to the builder. Add to that the fact that many A&P's/IA's I talked to wouldn't touch an experimental because they didn't want their name attached to unknown construction.
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Correct, only the "builder" can get a Repairman's certificate. But, the only thing that the Repairman's certificate let's you do is the condition inspection (experimental version of an annual). You can do all the work on the plane you want without the repairman's certificate. Without a Repairman's certificate, you'll have to find an A&P to do the condition inspection.
 
TexasAviation said:
I've been leaning towards certificated for lots of reasons. I'm a busy guy and don't have the time/interest to build my own experimental.
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Seemed to answer the question yourself. If you have zero interest in building or maintaining an airplane then you're still going to be paying someone to do all the MX. The parts might be cheaper but you will have to search out an A&P who understands the particular kitplane you bought. Also not sure of any 4 person experimental that fall under $60K.
 
TexasAviation said:
...

So how do you convert a certificated plane to experimental? That sounds like a great option for me.
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You can only temporarily convert a normal category aircraft to experimental for such things as research and develop!ment to obtain an STC you plan to market. There would be very restrictive operational constraints placed on the aircraft during the time it was experimental and then it has to be put back to normal category after the time expires. Converting normal category aircraft to experimental category is not practical for owners just wanting to enjoy the different rules amateur built experimental aircraft owners enjoy.
 
TexasAviation said:
...But some things about certificated planes drive me CRAZY. Example: The power trim switch on the club Archer's yoke is broken and won't move. The replacement part, something that would probably cost a couple of bucks max at Radio Shack, lists for a whopping $1,000. It's insane.

Experimentals sure start to look appealing at times like that.
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I'd suggest finding a mechanic who is willing to research things a little more than it sounds like your current one will. Many of the things like switches are common parts that can be had quite affordably if you or your mechanic is willing to do some research.

Regarding experimentals, I don't really think they are that much cheaper to care for. The big thing is that you can get nicer stuff and/or more for your money when it comes to things like avionics.

bnt83 said:
What experimental comes near the size of a Cherokee 6 anywhere near $50k?
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I can't even think of many experimentals that are even comparable to the Cherokee 6 much less one that is only $50k.

bradg33 said:
Experimental will be cheaper to acquire
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How do you figure? You can get much more airplane for your money with certified airplanes. Heck, for $50k the OP could get some entry level light twins. What would you be able to get into for $50k in an experimental?

In my book, what experimental offers are newer airframes at a more affordable price point. Because of the lack of regulation on them many are better equipped than comparable certified airplanes as well. But cheaper they are not. Especially if it isn't a cobbled together mess.
 
I tend to steer new owners away from experimentals. Not that there is anything at all inherently wrong with them, its just that purchasing and owning an aircraft is already fairly complicated, there are quite few extra issues with experimentals muddying the water. For that and only that reason I tend to suggest people purchase certificated aircraft for their first ownership experience. Also, just like every airplane doesn't fit every mission, every pilot isn't fit terribly well with an experimental.
 
TexasAviation said:
Yeah, four-seat experimentals will be out of my price range. And Cherokee Six would be a stretch, I know. Trade-a-Plane lists several under $60k, but Lord knows what kind of shape they're in.

So how do you convert a certificated plane to experimental? That sounds like a great option for me.
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What about a IAR-823, 4 place, stick controls, standard Lycoming IO - 540 and whatnot :dunno:

http://www.raptoraviation.com/aircraft spec pages old/IAR.html

http://www.barnstormers.com/Warbird, IAR Classifieds.htm

IAR%20file%20photo.jpg
 
mondtster said:
How do you figure? You can get much more airplane for your money with certified airplanes. Heck, for $50k the OP could get some entry level light twins. What would you be able to get into for $50k in an experimental?

In my book, what experimental offers are newer airframes at a more affordable price point. Because of the lack of regulation on them many are better equipped than comparable certified airplanes as well. But cheaper they are not. Especially if it isn't a cobbled together mess.
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I should have been more clear, my fault. Depends on what your mission is. If you want to take 2 people somewhere fast, with a glass cockpit, etc., you'll struggle to beat something like a well-equipped RV-8, which can be had in the $60k range. It'll outrun most other piston singles in the price range, on far less gas. If you want a 4-seater, than my statement isn't really correct. Of course, if you're spending $200-250k, you can get a nice, fast Lancair IV-P that'll beat the pants off a similarly priced Cirrus, etc., assuming you can manage to keep from killing yourself in it :)
 
bradg33 said:
Correct, only the "builder" can get a Repairman's certificate. But, the only thing that the Repairman's certificate let's you do is the condition inspection (experimental version of an annual). You can do all the work on the plane you want without the repairman's certificate. Without a Repairman's certificate, you'll have to find an A&P to do the condition inspection.
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Thanks for that info. I thought you had to have it to even work on the aircraft, which made me wonder why anyone would buy a used RV etc. makes sense now.
 
Omalley1537 said:
-Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the repairman's cert (allowing the owner to work on the experimental) is only available to the builder. Add to that the fact that many A&P's/IA's I talked to wouldn't touch an experimental because they didn't want their name attached to unknown construction.
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A repairman's certificate allows you to do the condition inspection. Period. Maintenance and modification can be done by anybody.

I had no trouble at all finding an A&P to do my condition inspections.
 
I haven't looked recently, but 60k should find you a decent C210 (old one with struts and fixed gear) or a cherokee 6 260.

If you want to carry the family on that budget, those are your only options. I would rule out experimentals for 4 or 6 seat planes to be honest. There are some good ones out there, but the market is flooded with solid, inexpensive 4-6 seat certified planes with good reputations and good performance.
 
I just Googled to answer my own question: converting a certified airplane to experimental comes with all kinds of restrictions. Should have known it wouldn't be so simple :)

Yes, I'm a fairly new pilot. I got my PPL 11 months ago and have around 140 hours. This will be my first plane.

My typical mission won't be with the whole family. A true four-seater will handle 90% of what I want to do. Six seats would be nice for taking the family on trips occasionally, but I'm guessing that would only be 10% of my missions. So it would be awesome on those trips, but not necessarily worth the extra fuel I'd be burning on 100% of my flights.

My wife likes a two-seat Glasair based on pictures :)

I'll probably end up with a four-seat certified aircraft in the end, maybe a six-seat if I'm lucky/patient.

And I wouldn't mind doing a fair bit of maintenance myself on an experimental ... just don't have the months/years of time it would take to build one. I'm like a toddler wanting an airplane NOW, NOW, NOW! :)
 
mondtster said:
How do you figure? You can get much more airplane for your money with certified airplanes. Heck, for $50k the OP could get some entry level light twins. What would you be able to get into for $50k in an experimental?

In my book, what experimental offers are newer airframes at a more affordable price point. Because of the lack of regulation on them many are better equipped than comparable certified airplanes as well. But cheaper they are not. Especially if it isn't a cobbled together mess.
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Yes and no... if you're looking at a 5 year old certified plane vs a 5 year old experimental plane then you're going to see a huge cost difference. If you're looking at a 5 year old Experimental plane vs a 40 year old certified plane then the certified is going to be cheaper.

Top that off with the type of experimental plane and the range goes up to a Lancair Evolution where the engine alone is $500K.

steingar said:
I tend to steer new owners away from experimentals. Not that there is anything at all inherently wrong with them, its just that purchasing and owning an aircraft is already fairly complicated, there are quite few extra issues with experimentals muddying the water. For that and only that reason I tend to suggest people purchase certificated aircraft for their first ownership experience. Also, just like every airplane doesn't fit every mission, every pilot isn't fit terribly well with an experimental.
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I agree with this... the last year of owning and maintaining my 172 I've learned things and continue to learn things related to aircraft ownership. Book learning of how a vacuum system works is completely different than helping replace your system, or learning what to look for when you remove the engine cowling.
 
finding an A&P to work on an experimental is not that hard, get to know the people who fly experimental aircraft at your airport. A large number of experimental owners are A&P's. I have no problems with signing off owner assisted condition inspections.

I agree, that the op will not find a 4 place experimental in that price range. but he will also not find a certified 4 place with the kind of avionics that you can find for the money in an experimental. show me an aircraft that will compete with a RV-10 with full glass, auto pilot, and every thing else that they have. including very low airframe hours for the price of a RV-10. (flame suit on) the RV-10 beats the he.. out of a cirrus any day in my book. from what i have seen the average price of a cirrus is well north of 250k. a well equipped low time rv-10 will be below that. If you just want to gas and go, and right checks for maintenance, then you will really not save that much with an experimental. If you the type of person that will/can turn a wrench and participate in the maintenance of your aircraft you can save a lot of money on an experimental.

my advice to people that are looking for their first aircraft, really define there mission. yes a six seat, speed ship sounds great, but how often are you going to be filling those six seats and using the full capabilities of the the aircraft. my 2 seat aircraft flies about 80% of the time solo and my 4 seat about 90% one or two people. insurance cost is a lot higher for a six seat aircraft than a 4 seat aircraft. the fuel burn between a 160/180 HP is a whole lot less than a 250/300 HP engine.
 
TexasAviation said:
Yeah, four-seat experimentals will be out of my price range. And Cherokee Six would be a stretch, I know. Trade-a-Plane lists several under $60k, but Lord knows what kind of shape they're in.

So how do you convert a certificated plane to experimental? That sounds like a great option for me.
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You apply at the FSDO. You didn't say your mission. Are you talking about a local plane you fly near home? If so, any light sport will do and they have the benefit even if SLSA as being able to use experimental avionics etc.
 
Gsxrpilot said:
I don't see you finding a plane in your budget that will seat/carry 5 people. Your best options would be a C210 or Cherokee 6. Both are probably way beyond your $60K. Experimental's are certainly out of the question. If all you need are two seats, then the RV line is an excellent way to go. If you want the flexibility to carry all 3 kids but leave Mom at home, then any 4 seat certificated will work. And there are lots of options in the $60K range.

I waited until the kids were off to college then bought a Mooney.
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This sounds more realistic. It's possible that the family or several members will not want to fly after one or two times.....then what?
 
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Tom-D said:
For your budget you can buy a very nice Aztec/250 horse and carry more than the Cherokee 6. That's an aircraft that your family of 5 will not out grow.

Her's one within your budget, GPS equipped.

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/Vi...l=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=19746200&dealerid=
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That's a whole lot of airplane for that kind of money. I couldn't swing the fuel and maintenance, but wow...

Oh, and at $59k, it is approaching parts value. The engines alone are worth $15k ea (at least) on the used market.
 
Yeah, twins are tempting me, too. There are some incredible deals out there ... but knowing the fuel/insurance/maintenance costs makes me want to stick with single engine, fixed gear most likely. That's bound to keep the twin market depressed.
 
Here is a reason twins like that sell for the price of a middle low end Bo


You can also get into a Mig for not too much, of course it's not the initial purchase price that will eat you alive.
 
kyleb said:
That's a whole lot of airplane for that kind of money. I couldn't swing the fuel and maintenance, but wow...

Oh, and at $59k, it is approaching parts value. The engines alone are worth $15k ea (at least) on the used market.
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They were the favorite of the light weight cargo folks, when you have one in good condition it does not require much to keep it that way. You in part 91 will not be required to do the maintenance required by the 135 guys that set the dollars per hour figures we see today.
The airport manager at OKH ran one for a few years, he never spent over 5k per year.

If you have no need for the 1800 pound useful load, try an Apache 160. they can be had for less than 30k. the rest of your budget than becomes fuel and maintenance.

You'll find the Cherokee 6 is a fuel pig light or even a bigger fuel pig when loaded.
 
James331 said:
You can also get into a Mig for not too much, of course it's not the initial purchase price that will eat you alive.
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Ever try to carry 5 in a MIG?
Remember in less than a decade his kids will be teenagers, ever see what a teenager brings along for a weekend?
For the next 20 years of flying his family, the Aztec is the only choice.
 
Tom-D said:
Ever try to carry 5 in a MIG?
Remember in less than a decade his kids will be teenagers, ever see what a teenager brings along for a weekend?
For the next 20 years of flying his family, the Aztec is the only choice.
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My point was the mig, like the little twins, eats wallets for lunch. Just get a 206, toga, etc.


Now if you have the "go f' yourself" type of money, buy the mig, have a ball flying yourself and your woman over and send the kiddies to coach seating on the airlines.
 
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