corjulo
Line Up and Wait
My club put me on a committee to buy another plane. The general consensus is we want a true four seater. Other then the Cessna 182 is there anything you guys think we should look at?
Buying another plane
- Thread starter corjulo
- Start date
poadeleted3
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,055
corjulo said:
A true four seater? The 182 you mentioned, as well as the Piper Dakota. Also, the Cessna 206 and Piper Cherokee Sixes shouldn't be ignored.
BillG
Pre-takeoff checklist
Grumman Tiger! It's a true 4 seater, has a cool sliding canopy, goes as fast as a 182 on 2/3 of the fuel, fun to fly. (I'm new at this - how'd I do, Ron and Anthony?) 
poadeleted3
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,055
BillG said:Grumman Tiger! It's a true 4 seater, has a cool sliding canopy, goes as fast as a 182 on 2/3 of the fuel, fun to fly. (I'm new at this - how'd I do, Ron and Anthony?)
The Tiger carries what, 900-950 pounds? With full fuel it can't really carry four real people. But it's certainly worth a look if you really want to carry three, not four, or two adults and two kids. It's way more fun to fly than a 182, that's for sure!!
sere
Pre-takeoff checklist
corjulo said:
If you want a true 4 seater then buy a 6 seater.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
BillG said:Grumman Tiger! It's a true 4 seater, has a cool sliding canopy, goes as fast as a 182 on 2/3 of the fuel, fun to fly. (I'm new at this - how'd I do, Ron and Anthony?)
Perfect.
Sounds like familiar propaganda to me and it sounds like you love your Tiger. Might be time for a Tiger report as a new owner. I and maybe others would like ot here your thoughts, pros/cons, etc.If Dan needs a true four place and full fuel plus bags plane, the Tiger ain't gonna do it. Besides the 182, the Cherokee 235/Dakota comes to mind or a even a Cherokee Six. If you just want the ability to fill four seats and don't mind flying fuel to the tabs (38 gallons @ 10 GPH) then the Tiger will do it. And since Dan is located in the northeast then high DA is not an issue unless its REALLY hot.
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
Joe Williams said:
Neither can any four seat aircraft, including the C182. "Full fuel" should leave the comparative dialog, to be replaced with "useful load remaining when fueled for x miles".
I'll probably live to regret writing "any" as some horribly limited fuel capacity four seat aircraft will immediately be brought to our attention, but you get the point.
Dave Krall CFII
Final Approach
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2005
- Messages
- 5,022
- Location
- Seattle WA
- Display Name
Display name:
Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
corjulo said:
No, no others.
poadeleted3
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,055
Ed Guthrie said:
The older Commander 114s, with 68 gallons fuel capacity, can carry full fuel and 700-750 pounds in the cabin. 68 gallons isn't "horribly limited."
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
corjulo said:
What is the consensus purpose for carrying four FAA adults? Travel a distance? Carry luggage, too?
What other criteria? Be relatively immune to damage and therefor cheap to insure? Be relatively non-demanding of pilot skill/experience, and therefor insurable with any Joe Pilot?
BTW, if you want to travel distance with luggage, the C182 is not a four seat aircraft.
Len Lanetti
Cleared for Takeoff
corjulo said:
How much do you want to spend?
Without that limitiation I'd say look at something from the Gulfstream line.
:<)
For club use, a Dakota or a Cherokee 6 - a Cessna 205 or a 206.
Len
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,888
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
What are some of the other dynamics? What fleet will it be joining? If it's a fleet of 172s, then a 182 makes sense. If it's a mixed fleet of Cessnas and Pipers and Beeches, you have more options.
Do you care (ie insurance) about retract vs. straight leg? What mission will it be expected to serve? Is this for 4 adults to joy ride or 4 adults to travel? Is there an operating cost (ie rental rate) you're trying to hit? How much do you have to spend?
Do you care (ie insurance) about retract vs. straight leg? What mission will it be expected to serve? Is this for 4 adults to joy ride or 4 adults to travel? Is there an operating cost (ie rental rate) you're trying to hit? How much do you have to spend?
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
The Tiger is a "true 4-seater" that can carry four average adults and over 3+30 fuel (to the tabs) and a couple of overnight bags. It cannot carry four adults, four suitcases, and full (5 hours) fuel, but neither can a 182 (runs out of baggage area for the four suitcases even if it doesn't run out of gross weight).
But what do your club members really want? If they want a plane to haul four adults and a week's worth of luggage over 400 nm, you need more power than a 182 or 235 Cherokee/Dakota has -- it's time for a 206 or a Cherokee Six/Saratoga. If your members want a plane they can take the family out on a weekend or two couples off somewhere to lunch, the 180 HP birds will do it very nicely for very little more cost than your 150-160HP O-320-powered plane, and the Tiger will do it with the most sportiness. If we're talking four "full-sized" adults on a business trip, the 182/235 can do the job. And if you're in Denver or points higher, just kick each of those descriptions up one notch or add a turbocharger.
But what do your club members really want? If they want a plane to haul four adults and a week's worth of luggage over 400 nm, you need more power than a 182 or 235 Cherokee/Dakota has -- it's time for a 206 or a Cherokee Six/Saratoga. If your members want a plane they can take the family out on a weekend or two couples off somewhere to lunch, the 180 HP birds will do it very nicely for very little more cost than your 150-160HP O-320-powered plane, and the Tiger will do it with the most sportiness. If we're talking four "full-sized" adults on a business trip, the 182/235 can do the job. And if you're in Denver or points higher, just kick each of those descriptions up one notch or add a turbocharger.
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
sere said:If you want a true 4 seater then buy a 6 seater.
Amen.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Sorry, Carol, I gotta say a Comanche's a bad choice for a club. While an individual owner can work around the insurance and maintenance issues, they are going to eat a club up. Better to stick with a non-complex airplane currently being manufactured/supported.Carol said:
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2005
- Messages
- 10,903
- Location
- Olympia, Washington
- Display Name
Display name:
Ghery Pettit
corjulo said:
As noted by others, you trade fuel for passenger/baggage. The funny thing is that with full fuel (have to plan that way, club rules require putting the plane away full) we can put more weight in the cabin of our 180 hp C-172N than in our C-182 or Arrow. Long range tanks (50 gal) in the C-172 and long range tanks (75 gal) in the C-182. Gotta love that Penn Yan conversion...
Len Lanetti
Cleared for Takeoff
Ron Levy said:
I want a Lear Jet!
What can your club/club members afford?
Len
P.S. I actually don't want a Lear Jet...I want a C130.
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
Joe Williams said:68 gallons isn't "horribly limited."
No, but bordering on it when you have an IO-540 sucking on the other end of the straw and the flat out full bore cruise speed is so slow you have bird strikes on the trailing edge.
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,888
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
I could see a Caravan on floatsLen Lanetti said:
corjulo
Line Up and Wait
Ed Guthrie said:
Non demanding of pilots skill/experience is a big one. We have two 172's now. We hoping to do this for 80k to 100K. There is a lot of respect for the Cherokee 6 but it is believed to be too complex for the club average pilot
corjulo
Line Up and Wait
Ghery said:
Thanks for the info, the devil is in the details
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,888
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
That's hooey.corjulo said:
But you will be hard pressed to find a decent one for 80-100K.
gibbons
En-Route
You're looking for a C182.corjulo said:
Greg Bockelman
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,093
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
corjulo said:
A Cherokee 6 is not too complex for the average pilot. But another option you could look at is an Archer. 180 horse, dirt simple to operate, and about 950 useful load. Of course, fuel takes from that, but it has tabs at 35 gallons, I believe which gives you vfr flexibility, if not very good IFR range.
Jim Chumley
Pre-takeoff checklist
corjulo said:
Don't know what the other club planes are. If they are Cessnas, the 182 is a logical choice. They are everywhere and so maintenance shouldn't be an issue. Everything I've ever heard about the 182 would make me say this. It's a good four place airplane, good speed and load carrying capability. Stable. High wing for rainy days. A very popular airplane for good reasons.
That being said, I love the Grummans. They are fun to fly and the Tiger would really bear looking at. One man's opinion.
Jim
Ed Guthrie
Cleared for Takeoff
gibbons said:
I agree with Chip unless you find a 206 or maybe a 205 being sold dirt cheap by an insane person.
jkaduk
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1,289
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Display Name
Display name:
John Kaduk
I rode in a Dakota with fuel at tabs and 4 men, 3 of which weighed over 200 lbs. Climb was impressive. Standard day at sea level. Tabs is probably 3 hours of fuel.
sierra
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2005
- Messages
- 184
- Display Name
Display name:
sierra
Joe Williams said:
my airplane will hate me for saying this....(even tho she is a baby tiger)
it is more fun than the 182.
...but the 182 will take more than the tiger. and there is something about that 20degree flap short field takeoff that the 182 does so well, whereas the grummies tend to levitate off the ground.
gibbons
En-Route
I can't recall the number of times I've said to myself, "I love this Bonanza, but where the hell am I supposed to put this moose?"Steve said:
SkyHog
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,431
- Location
- Castle Rock, CO
- Display Name
Display name:
Everything Offends Me
I don't know the price, but what about the Airvan??
Len Lanetti
Cleared for Takeoff
Ken Ibold said:
Ken,
I can see them too, I mean jeez they're so big I wouldn't even need my glasses, but buy one, no way.
:<)
Len
Len Lanetti
Cleared for Takeoff
corjulo said:
I just did a search in Trade a Plane using $75K to $95K and model year 1968 to 1980 as the search criteria. 132 aircraft matched those criteria.
25 Skylanes
1 Cherokee 6-260
1 Cherokee 6-300 (+ another one with close to 10K airframe hours)
You could change some of the criteria and see what jumps out at ya.
The Cherokee 6 is a fat Archer with a constant speed prop and cowl flaps. A few hours of dual (several at most) and just about any proficient pilot that has flown a PA28 should be able to fly a Cherokee 6.
Len
Len Lanetti
Cleared for Takeoff
Steve said:
Just in case I ever have to take a moose somewhere...what kind of plane is that.
Len
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Wasn't the punchline of that joke "Yup, and we crashed in almost exactly the same place last year, too"?Steve said:
Nevertheless, the still-open question is just what sort of uses (range, payload, etc) to which Dan's club members plan to put that "4-place" airplane. Answer that, and the choices will narrow themselves.
corjulo said:
Operationally, I don't see how you figure outside of the fuel selector.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Hey Dan:
Sounds like the 182 is the way to go.
I'm on the board of RFC Dallas Flying Club here at Addison (Dallas area). We have a PA-28; C-177RG; 300 HP Beech Deb; F-33 and an A-36 Bonanza. Question I would ask is do you want to give members the opportunity to step up to high performance/complex? If not, you seem to be on track. If you want to open that door (as we have) look at the C-33 or F33 Bonanza.
I have the performance numbers for our club planes if you want to dig in.
Best,
Dave
Baron 322KS
Sounds like the 182 is the way to go.
I'm on the board of RFC Dallas Flying Club here at Addison (Dallas area). We have a PA-28; C-177RG; 300 HP Beech Deb; F-33 and an A-36 Bonanza. Question I would ask is do you want to give members the opportunity to step up to high performance/complex? If not, you seem to be on track. If you want to open that door (as we have) look at the C-33 or F33 Bonanza.
I have the performance numbers for our club planes if you want to dig in.
Best,
Dave
Baron 322KS