Buying a plane

Carbon fiber composites are not the same as cheap plastic trim parts
 
James331 said:
Plastics are cheap, on planes, cars, guns, watches, anything really.

Looks cheap, feels cheap, doesn't weather time or elements well.

Ever see someone swap out a wood trim for plastic? Swap out metal parts for plastic?

Check out that wood grain or check out that plastic grain dash, I love the smell of teak or I love the smell of plastic?
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Metal for plastic all the time.
 
James331 said:
Really?
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Oh hell yeah, there are some really high quality, high performance plastics that I use to eliminate problems with metal components all the time. Look at any modern sailboat deck hardware, all the bearings are Delrin or some other high performance plastic, and the rigging is either Spectra (a polymer fiber) or carbon fiber.
 
James331 said:
Plastics are cheap, on planes, cars, guns, watches, anything really.

Looks cheap, feels cheap, doesn't weather time or elements well.

Ever see someone swap out a wood trim for plastic? Swap out metal parts for plastic?

Check out that wood grain or check out that plastic grain dash, I love the smell of teak or I love the smell of plastic?
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Well vettes are plastic, and I am kinda looking for more of a corvette than a station wagon. Sorry could not resist!
 
That's not plastic like dash overlays on cessnas etc.

Certainly carbon fiber does not qualify.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tom is an old rag-wing-and-tube guy who has a small aircraft maintenance business. He doesn't like modern construction technologies at all. He has little or no experience performing repairs on them, and doesn't trust their longevity.
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Right Ron, That's why I spent half of my military career repairing the Grumman honey comb floorboards and other composite honeycomb parts like the EA6B/E2 nose radome. And why my next project is a LongEZ.

Don't judge others, you may be judged too.

And yes I do rag and tube, it is easy money.
 
tfitch03 said:
Shots fired!
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I was asked why I didn't like composite, I answered with the repairing of it.

That is not to be confused with not knowing how or won't do it. I'll explain. Repairing composites always end up with mixing a sticky mess and is always more expensive than a few rivets.

Picture this, you have a broken composite wing spar, I have a cracked Cessna wing spar. which will get repaired and which will be back in service quicker?
 
Tom-D said:
I was asked why I didn't like composite, I answered with the repairing of it.

That is not to be confused with not knowing how or won't do it. I'll explain. Repairing composites always end up with mixing a sticky mess and is always more expensive than a few rivets.

Picture this, you have a broken composite wing spar, I have a cracked Cessna wing spar. which will get repaired and which will be back in service quicker?
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Sheet metal guys will come in pretty much even with composite guys doing equal caliber repairs IME. It all depends on which procedures the repairman is better versed in and comfortable with. It would take me forever to do either, and I would be as equally unenthralled with driving the rivets as fairing the composite. I don't mind lay up and repair, I have enough experience that I know how to manage the processes and the mess to a point below the level of obnoxious. I'd rather paper mache, but that doesn't hold up as well as plastic polymers do. What I hate about composites is cutting and grinding. With new construction I can often work wet and control it, but that doesn't work out in repair.
 
Rick Wallace said:
He has 3 small children. ... The '12 sr22 has 5 seats, but is really a 4 person airplane if they are not small children.
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i suggest posting your question on the COPA website. Mostly it is for members, but they do have a public part where you can post a question like this.

I'd wager you'll be told that a family of four, even if skinny, is not realistic given the 2012's payload. The G5 model starting the next year has a much improved payload, but the back seat is the same size.
 
Henning said:
Sheet metal guys will come in pretty much even with composite guys doing equal caliber repairs IME. It all depends on which procedures the repairman is better versed in and comfortable with. It would take me forever to do either, and I would be as equally unenthralled with driving the rivets as fairing the composite. I don't mind lay up and repair, I have enough experience that I know how to manage the processes and the mess to a point below the level of obnoxious. I'd rather paper mache, but that doesn't hold up as well as plastic polymers do. What I hate about composites is cutting and grinding. With new construction I can often work wet and control it, but that doesn't work out in repair.
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That's just you. And we all know you are not the norm.
 
James331 said:
No, buts it not made to weather time like a 210, let alone a J3.
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Time will tell, but the Diamond DA-40 (another composite) does not have a life limit on the airframe. Not sure about the cirrus, but I do know they use a proprietary layup formulation and technique that works for them and their production goals.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Time will tell, but the Diamond DA-40 (another composite) does not have a life limit on the airframe. Not sure about the cirrus, but I do know they use a proprietary layup formulation and technique that works for them and their production goals.
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Have you ever tried to get repair data approved for a major repair to their composite structure? It's nearly impossible to prove to FSDO that the repair will be equal to the OEM layup.

I don't like to repair composite structure for many reasons.
 
Archammer said:
I completely forgot about a plane I had looked at years ago, that may be just freaking perfect for your mission!

The GippsAero GA8 Airvan: http://www.gippsaero.com/aircraft/ga8-airvan.aspx#tab4

We'll see if you all like it as much as I do.
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I will give my standard warning as someone who has worked in Australian manufacturing building both planes and boats: Don't buy a critical complex product from a place where the manufacturing ethos is "She be right mate".
 
Tom-D said:
Have you ever tried to get repair data approved for a major repair to their composite structure? It's nearly impossible to prove to FSDO that the repair will be equal to the OEM layup.

I don't like to repair composite structure for many reasons.
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The weight penalty is something you have to accept, and if you do, then composites are repairable to equal strength, and even better, it is simple to reinforce found weaknesses. The only thing I would be hesitant to repair is a well engineered and built spar due to stress concentration issues. Skins and such, using best industry practices in scarfing and reinforcement, I would not be overly concerned with durability. There are sailboat hulls I repaired years and even decades ago that have not lost integrity, and they are under much greater stress than airplane skins being under tons of constant stress from the standing rigging.
 
Henning said:
The weight penalty is something you have to accept, and if you do, then composites are repairable to equal strength, and even better, it is simple to reinforce found weaknesses.
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Try to prove that to the ASI signing the 337 approval.

If it is or is not, isn't the point. when the manufacturer has a proprietary lay up process and refuses to give repair procedures the FAA will not except the liability for the repair procedure you give in the request for field approval on a 337.

Like I've tried to point out, repairing composites in GA is a PITA.
 
Tom-D said:
Try to prove that to the ASI signing the 337 approval.

If it is or is not, isn't the point. when the manufacturer has a proprietary lay up process and refuses to give repair procedures the FAA will not except the liability for the repair procedure you give in the request for field approval on a 337.

Like I've tried to point out, repairing composites in GA is a PITA.
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Have you tried contacting Cirrus or Cessna with regards to getting a procedure? I can't imagine being able to buy insurance on their planes if every bit of damage would require full replacement of that component, or maybe that accounts for the higher rate.:dunno:
 
I have a sr20. I take the lady and two kids all the time with no problems. However I think once the boys hit junior or high school it wont work.
 
EminiTrader said:
I have a sr20. I take the lady and two kids all the time with no problems. However I think once the boys hit junior or high school it wont work.
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The good thing is you'll be able to step rather seamlessly into an SR-22 which will work.
 
Rick, what is your primary mission? Long distance trips, quick weekend get aways, day trips for a $100 burger? Mission is an important consideration when buying a plane.
I fly an SR22, have a wife and 2 year old. It works perfect for 2 - 2.5 hour trips (although most we take are in the 1-2 hour range.).

Also think about what your kids needs are. We tend to have quite a bit of baggage because of our two year old (small suitace for myself, one for my wife, duffle bad for our son, and usually another bag with toys, diapers, snacks, sippy cups,etc. ). Throw in jackets, a car seat, stroller, etc and the plane is fairly full.
 
Henning said:
I will give my standard warning as someone who has worked in Australian manufacturing building both planes and boats: Don't buy a critical complex product from a place where the manufacturing ethos is "She be right mate".
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The Airvan's are almost completely manufactured in Seattle, then shipped to Australia for final assembly. Also doesn't Mahindra make that air tractor that has the ridiculous success rate?

My research shows that the Airvan 8 & 10 are well made utility class aircraft.
 
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Archammer said:
The Airvan's are almost completely manufactured in Seattle, then shipped to Australia for final assembly. Also doesn't Mahindra make that air tractor that has the ridiculous success rate?

My research shows that the Airvan 8 & 10 are well made utility class aircraft.
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After hanging around some PAC750s maybe those guys should just stick to fosters and croc wrestling.
 
Archammer said:
The Airvan's are almost completely manufactured in Seattle, then shipped to Australia for final assembly. Also doesn't Mahindra make that air tractor that has the ridiculous success rate?

My research shows that the Airvan 8 & 10 are well made utility class aircraft.
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You may do and believe as you please, I would not buy an Airvan.
 
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