Buying a plane

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Rick Wallace

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Avnut
So i know I am the most annoying plane buyer out there as a first time buyer but i think a partner and I have picked our plane. He has 3 small children. I have 2 small children. I need a four seater he needs 5 or 6. I dont usually partner in anything, but in this case it is a great thing. It will work out great, we are both workaholics(no worries about schedule conflicts), paying cash, we both tend to take care of our investments, we both want to be safe good pilots, we fly together a good bit, and our families get together at events. I am willing to concede buying a little more than i need to have a great partnership. We have looked at a 182( consession on his side), an 07 206, a new sr20 with 5 seats(we both hate the deprciation of a new aircraft, a saratoga, piper 6xt, bonanaza, and finally i think we have settled on a '12 sr22. No retractable gear, excellent speed, parachute, g1000. We only have 130 hours ppl, but we are now renting a g1000 da40 to hopefully prep us for an sr22. The '12 sr22 has 5 seats, but is really a 4 person airplane if they are not small children. It seems like the perfect compromise. This isnt a "forever" airplane but seems like a necessary step to a twin or more. Can you poke holes in our plan?
 
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If the sr20 fits everyone's needs and you get along with your partner it sounds like a win/win.
 
Buy your last airplane first. Buy once cry once was the advise that I was given when researching a purchase. Sounds like you need a true six seater. Those "three small children" are not all gonna be that small a few years down the road, plus if you wanna take your kid's friends you are maxed.
 
Just an observation, but I don't think the SR22 will fit his family very well.
 
Shawn said:
Buy your last airplane first. Buy once cry once was the advise that I was given when researching a purchase. Sounds like you need a true six seater. Those "three small children" are not all gonna be that small a few years down the road, plus if you wanna take your kid's friends you are maxed.
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But a useful load on a bonanza is a 1000 and change...
 
Go for an early Saratoga. Will carry anything you can fit in it. It sounds like you will outgrow the Cirrus in a year or two, and the depreciation alone will make your hourly cost skyrocket.
 
07' 206....fail


Go take a look at a nicer older U206 with the IO550 and 3 blade and co pilot door mod, you'll thank me later.
 
James331 said:
07' 206....fail


Go take a look at a nicer older U206 with the IO550 and 3 blade and co pilot door mod, you'll thank me later.
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I personally dont want a 206. We dont want an older plane, no g1000, no pdf logs, 17gph fuel per at 140 knots at best.
 
mtuomi said:
Go for an early Saratoga. Will carry anything you can fit in it. It sounds like you will outgrow the Cirrus in a year or two, and the depreciation alone will make your hourly cost skyrocket.
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I think we will outgrow a toga in a year or two as well a cirrus. Useful load is about the same(cirrus is more) except a cirrus is more efficient without the retractable gear expense(insurance and maintenance).
 
Rick Wallace said:
We dont want an older plane,
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Gotcha.

Any reason?

You're going to be spending more for less aircraft.

Buying a old plane isn't like buying a used car at a lot.


I was also going to suggest a C210, but if you want new that won't work ether :dunno:
 
We had a bad experience trying to buy an older 182. Missing logs, corrosion, Spanish logs actually, did not get the air frame time right, just an 80 year old scammer engineer pos thinking he can pull one over on a new pilot. if it doesn't have PDF logs, I am not interested... Not flying my mechanic to east bumblesmuck to find out somebody is trying to screw me, and it happens all the time even with members selling to members on this site.

We just decided a newer aircraft was going to be less maintenance in the future and not as many surprises. And we think there will be divide bt g1000 planes and round gauges/upgraded planes in the future.

There are no 5 seat aircraft out there, unless you happen upon '65 Comanche with an stc or 182 with an stc. I can't believe no one else has an stc for a newer aircraft. Seems like a no brainer. I don't think we are paying more money for less aircraft. I prefer metal airplanes, but the cirrus is incredibly more efficient than just about any metal aircraft it's size. No rivets, no parasitic drag, blah blah.
 
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I've seen good planes and scummy planes, both new and old.

I believe you can do much better on some of the older airframes, PA24s, 210s etc. you'll find most working small planes are older airframes. Also the older airframes then to have less complex electrical and whatnot, last annual on my 185 was 500 bucks, same deal on my Stinson, and that's from a guy who doesn't defer things ether. A co worker has a SR20 with a electrical demon in it somewhere, turns out there is quite a but of wiring in that thing. But to each their own.

On the glass to round dial, you'll find the more experience you get the less it matters, as long as I have a GNS430 or similar and a HSI, I can shoot any approach to mins all the same, and have the same situational awareness.

Good luck on your search.
 
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You need something with 6 seats, a Bonanza, Saratoga etc. 2 adults plus 2/3 kids plus all the stuff that goes with hauling kids equals a 6 seat airplane. ;) Never underestimate the amount of stuff needed to be loaded for kids and wives!:eek:
 
James331 said:
I've seen good planes and scummy planes, both new and old.

I believe you can do much better on some of the older airframes, PA24s, 210s etc. you'll find most working small planes are older airframes. Also the older airframes then to have less complex electrical and whatnot, last annual on my 185 was 500 bucks, same deal on my Stinson, and that's from a guy who doesn't defer things ether. A co worker has a SR20 with a electrical demon in it somewhere, turns out there is quite a but of wiring in that thing. But to each their own.


Good luck on your search.
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I guess we really won't know the answer until we buy something and then have to sell it. Everybody has told us to get an a36, but it is has less payload than a sr22 and retract cost( insurance/ maintenance).

Thanks for comments.
 
Kids grow, so does their stuff. He needs a 6 seat plane, and you will eventually just to get a reasonable useful load for 4 people and stuff...
 
An SR20 won't haul that crowd even with the advertised five seats. If you doubt me, check the W&B data on one and then try to load two adults and three kids into it along with all the accoutrements that such a crowd carries with them. Even if an SR22 will carry the weight, you'll be pretty unhappy with trying to fit all that in the available cabin volume. Also, you won't have but a couple of years at most before the kids physically outgrow the available space. While your 2+2 case would probably work with a 4-seat aircraft like a C-182, your partner's situation demands the bigger cabin of a C-206 or PA32 type where the big back door provides a lot better loading/unloading options.

I would also say that from a flying qualities/handling characteristics standpoint, a DA40 isn't a real good preparation for flying an SR20/22, although you can learn the G1000 pretty well that way.
 
I agree, the Lance makes more sense for your mission. That's the first plane that popped in my head too. You should be able to find some Lance's that are well equipped with great avionics, and will last you both a long time.
You mentioned something, about the fixed gear, so if you're wanting to avoid complex, then I'm pretty sure I've seen some very nice Six's as well.

Perfect example. I know it's on Controller, but it's a Turbo Lance w/ 530/430 wass. and all the other goodies.
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...ANCE-II/1978-PIPER-TURBO-LANCE-II/1345769.htm


Shane
The Squawk Shoppe
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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I don't know how much my opinion counts, but I would get a nice A36 with a 530W or some similar avionics setup. Log books can be scanned and sent electronically.

I may be burned at the stake for this, but after flying an SR22 and a couple different Bonanzas, I really don't get the Cirrus hype unless you simply must have a glass cockpit. I find the Bo to be more utilitarian, more comfy, and more solid all around. Maybe I'm just old fashioned :dunno:
 
So you looked at (1) plane with poorly translated foreign logs and decided enything built before G1000 was standard, must be junk ?

In that case you should buy new. You need a warranty. Better yet, join a fractional and turn over the mx to a 3rd party entirely.

Meantime people with early A36's with useful loads pushing 1600lbs and speeds of 180+ will be taking their whole family and bags while you fret over what to leave behind.
 
new G36's fit your needs, they ain't all that bad....and cheep too.....~$800K:rofl:

just go and get your last plane first....a PC-12. A family of 5 will need at least a 6 place aircraft with lots of baggage space. SR anything won't be doing that.
 
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Ron Levy said:
An SR20 won't haul that crowd even with the advertised five seats. If you doubt me, check the W&B data on one and then try to load two adults and three kids into it along with all the accoutrements that such a crowd carries with them. Even if an SR22 will carry the weight, you'll be pretty unhappy with trying to fit all that in the available cabin volume. Also, you won't have but a couple of years at most before the kids physically outgrow the available space. While your 2+2 case would probably work with a 4-seat aircraft like a C-182, your partner's situation demands the bigger cabin of a C-206 or PA32 type where the big back door provides a lot better loading/unloading options.

I would also say that from a flying qualities/handling characteristics standpoint, a DA40 isn't a real good preparation for flying an SR20/22, although you can learn the G1000 pretty well that way.
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I did look at the useful load, I think it was 913 lbs equipped with AC etc. With 300 lbs of fuel. That is a 600 lb payload. Weight wise, we wouldn't have a problem. Space wise eventually yes.

A36 with 1000lb useful load would be 520 lbs with 80 gallons of fuel.

Why is a DA40 not a good transition to an SR20? Different wing? Pretty much the same airspeed. It seemed like we were coming in hotter on a cirrus. It seems like the da40 would be training us to be ahead of the plane with the constant speed prop. Cirrus throttle and prop are tied together, so that would be one less thing to worry about.
 
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JHW said:
So you looked at (1) plane with poorly translated foreign logs and decided enything built before G1000 was standard, must be junk ?

In that case you should buy new. You need a warranty. Better yet, join a fractional and turn over the mx to a 3rd party entirely.

Meantime people with early A36's with useful loads pushing 1600lbs and speeds of 180+ will be taking their whole family and bags while you fret over what to leave behind.
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No that is not what I meant. We want a newer plane that is 15 years old or newer. Then you get into the g1000 thing. Do planes with g1000 hold their value better? We think they probably do. Would you rather have a 2003 182 or a 2004 g1000 182? My favorite type of plane is a well maintained one, and I am sure their bundles of older planes that people haven't skimped on maintenance, and maybe my thinking is owners that can afford a 300k aircraft are less likely to scimp on maintenance? And I could be wrong.

What models of A36 have 1600 lb useful loads? I really like them. I sat in a brand new one at the KSSI fly-in(we can all dream right?) but I think the sr22s would be less maintenance? And the newer models seem to be holding their value, they aren't giving them away or at least none that I can find.

And the parachute, I think it would give peace of mind to my wife and other passengers. I think I would feel safer flying at night, and I would be more likely to fly to the bahamas(at least I have time to get my safety raft ready after chute deployment!
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
new G36's fit your needs, they ain't all that bad....and cheep too.....~$800K:rofl:

just go and get your last plane first....a PC-12. A family of 5 will need at least a 6 place aircraft with lots of baggage space. SR anything won't be doing that.
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I think we have to buy something between getting into a twin. Which is probably our last plane. That is probably the ultimate goal, but I think we need 500 hours before that happens.
 
I think you are on the right track.

Sounds like you want new or near new and you are relatively new pilots so you want the latest technology in the panel. Glass panels with high res maps and synthetic vision are better than round guages, though it may be hard to get many to agree to that on this board. You prefer metal but sounds like you like fast glass even more. And you have the means to get what you want.

Given the potential passenger loads, most SEL airplanes come up short but do you really know how your mission will play out? This is hopefully a stepping stone to something else.

Going in with a partner not only spreads the investment but gives you more options on the backside... maybe you buyout your partner for the SR22 and they buy a ???? or who knows.

I think you are on the right track. Go for it and good luck!
 
Tom-D said:
Repairing it.
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When? 20 years from now. I know what you are talking about though i have seen about an 8 year old columbia 400 at our airport and their are some chips and light spider web type cracks in certain places, but nothing structural. It would be nice if some of these slick composite planes were aluminum with flush riveting, but i guess the cost would skyrocket. But then again i would be more comfortable buying a cirrus out of fl near the coast than a 182 with possible corrosion.
 
Rick Wallace said:
When? 20 years from now. I know what you are talking about though i have seen about an 8 year old columbia 400 at our airport and their are some chips and light spider web type cracks in certain places, but nothing structural. It would be nice if some of these slick composite planes were aluminum with flush riveting, but i guess the cost would skyrocket. But then again i would be more comfortable buying a cirrus out of fl near the coast than a 182 with possible corrosion.
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I can see inside a metal structure and find corrosion, I can't see a structural crack inside a composite structure.
 
I thought G1000s had issues upgrading to meet new ADSB requirements?
 
Rick Wallace said:
Do planes with g1000 hold their value better?
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over the long term, probably not. Things that cost more to keep, sell for less. But it's a moot point if the plane won't carry the load you want to carry

Rick Wallace said:
What models of A36 have 1600 lb useful loads?
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old ones often have >1500. Newer airplanes of any brand are fat pigs.

when I bought the travel air I looked for the cleanest, oldest example I could find. Mine is one of the lightest they made. It doesn't even have electric elevator trim.

Rick Wallace said:
It would be nice if some of these slick composite planes were aluminum with flush riveting
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That's called a bonanza

Rick Wallace said:
But then again i would be more comfortable buying a cirrus out of fl near the coast than a 182 with possible corrosion.
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plenty of things on a cirrus to corrode. Next time you're in destin find one that is based there and look closely at the aileron hinges.
 
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Rick Wallace said:
I did look at the useful load, I think it was 913 lbs equipped with AC etc. With 300 lbs of fuel. That is a 600 lb payload. Weight wise, we wouldn't have a problem. Space wise eventually yes.
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Tell you what -- you find someone with an SR20/22, bring the wife/kids/all their gear out to the plane and load it all in, then see what you thing about how near to a cabin volume problem you are.

Why is a DA40 not a good transition to an SR20? Different wing?
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For starters, and with all things considered, it has totally different flying qualities and handling characteristics. Fly both and you'll see what I mean.
 
Rick Wallace said:
Why don't you like plastic? What is cruise and fuel burn typically on a 210?
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Tom is an old rag-wing-and-tube guy who has a small aircraft maintenance business. He doesn't like modern construction technologies at all. He has little or no experience performing repairs on them, and doesn't trust their longevity.
 
how small are your kids? My kids grew like weeds when they hit their early teens. I remember flying the whole family with full fuel in a 180 cherokee. Now, I'd be near full gross with just one kid.

I don't know how temporary this plane is in your mind, but you may want to consider a 6 seat plane unless the SR22 has large back seats and the W&B agrees with your mission.
 
I think the SR-22 will serve you well until the second child of three hits puberty, if that coincides with your plans, the SR-22 is IMO the best choice.
 
Tom-D said:
Repairing it.
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Don't forget about general hangar rash. Composites are very expensive to fix.

Also, how much depreciation per hour do composite planes realize? I don't know what the useful life is for a Cirrus but the economics have to be different than metal planes.
 
As far as an airplane holding it's value, I believe you have to buy a very nice, very well maintained airplane that has a good following and keep it nice and well maintained. They all depreciate, but nice airplanes will always bring a premium to average or below average airplanes and they will be cheaper to maintain while you own them. :D
 
Plastics are cheap, on planes, cars, guns, watches, anything really.

Looks cheap, feels cheap, doesn't weather time or elements well.

Ever see someone swap out a wood trim for plastic? Swap out metal parts for plastic?

Check out that wood grain or check out that plastic grain dash, I love the smell of teak or I love the smell of plastic?
 
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