Buying a Pa-28 140

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Thinair9

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Rick
Hello,

Im looking to buy a Piper cherokee in the near future but I want to make an educated decision before doing so. I live in Colorado Springs and would be looking to store my plane at Meadow Lake (FLY). My goal is to become a commercial pilot and I want to buy something that I can use for both PPL, instrument, and commercial training. I realize many older cherokees do not have IFR capabilities but that can be changed with some avonics upgrades and reselling in the future is not a concern since I would plan to keep it for a long time. My biggest concern is that I was told by a CFI at the flying club where I train, to buy a 180 instead of a 140 because of power, but is it an absolute necessity to buy a 180 or even a 235? Can I get away with a 140 especially since it fits the bill better? I've seen other people owning them in mountinous areas such as Colorado, Montana, and Utah. I also want to point out that I intend to use it for solo cross countrys where it's just me and maybe a duffle bag for holiday/weekend getaways. This will be my first aircraft purchase.
 
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I bought a sort of underpowered plane for my first personal aircraft and flew it for 5 years. Now I am in flat Texas so climbing forever isn't an issue.
I sold it and bought a significantly more powerful aircraft.

It will likely be fine and if it is a financial thing, get what you can get. Knowing what I know now, you will NEVER regret getting something with more power.
I loved my little Grumman but there were times when I was a little close to the edge and stressing, etc. I fly a PA-24-250 now and it costs a bit more but what I get for it is worth every penny.
 
Thinair9 said:
Hello,

Im looking to buy a Piper cherokee in the near future but I want to make an educated decision before doing so. I live in Colorado Springs and would be looking to store my plane at Meadow Lake (FLY). My goal is to become a commercial pilot and I want to buy something that I can use for both PPL, instrument, and commercial training. I realize many older cherokees do not have IFR capabilities but that can be changed with some avonics upgrades and reselling in the future is not a concern since I would plan to keep it for a long time. My biggest concern is that I was told by a CFI at the flying club where I train, to buy a 180 instead of a 140 because of power, but is it an absolute necessity to buy a 180 or even a 235? Can I get away with a 140 especially since it fits the bill better? I've seen other people owning them in mountinous areas such as Colorado, Montana, and Utah. I also want to point out that I intend to use it for solo cross countrys where it's just me and maybe a duffle bag for holiday/weekend getaways. This will be my first aircraft purchase.
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I'm about 50 nm north of you, based at CFO. You want the 180, unless you will limit your flights to the east.
Trust me. I have a 1969 180. Trust your CFI. Neither one of us get kickbacks.

One possible option, the 140 with a 160 conversion.

I've flown a Cessna 152 in the summer. It's not fun. It's really not practical, either. Wait until June, go fly a 152 to Salida. Then contact me, we'll take my 180 to Salida. You'll be convinced.
 
I had a 140 for 18 years and it absolutely fit my needs. But I fly in the northeast where the low service ceiling of the 140 is a non-issue

As said above, get a 180. (even a 160hp 140 doesn’t quite leap off the runway as well as the 180, especially when lightly loaded)

good luck
 
I currently own a Cherokee 140 with the 150 HP engine. It’s biggest drawback is it’s lack of excess power as others have noted. We are in the east, so it’s not as limiting. The 180 version is definitely better but they are also in demand and the prices are higher.
If you decide to get the -140, probably for price reasons, the 160 HP conversion would be worth it. If I recall, there is also the Powerflow exhaust kit that effectively takes the 150 (O320-E2A engine) up to 160 HP, on the downside, it’s also 6000$ for the exhaust alone. Our plane has the standard classic six pack instruments with the typical 1980’s King VOR/ILS\ADF/Comm 1 and 2 radios making it IFR equipped and current. There's no GPS. You could get your PPL and IR in a plane like that, and build time. As others have said, density altitude would usually have you fly east, but if it’s only you and some baggage, it’s possible, especially in cold weather where the density alt comes down a lot. Then you have a very economical trainer. We have had very few issues with our plane over the 10+ years we’ve had it as simplicity has been reliability for us.
Good luck in your search, keep us up to date on your decision!
 
In addition to what others have said, keep in mind for commercial pilot certificate training it would have to fit the definition of Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA) which means it must have:

Electronic primary flight display​
Multifunction display​
Two axis autopilot​
​
Most likely it would be more cost effective to rent during commercial training phase.
 
Michael Castle said:
I recall, there is also the Powerflow exhaust kit that effectively takes the 150 (O320-E2A engine) up to 160 HP, on the downside, it’s also 6000$ for the exhaust alone. Our
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I have upgraded mine to 160hp plus a Power Flow exhaust. I have yet to fly it.

I don’t think the power flow exhaust really ADDS hp to the engine. Since its a tuned system, it releases the horsepower you lost with that convoluted Piper factory exhaust.
 
murphey said:
I'm about 50 nm north of you, based at CFO. You want the 180, unless you will limit your flights to the east.
Trust me. I have a 1969 180. Trust your CFI. Neither one of us get kickbacks.

One possible option, the 140 with a 160 conversion.

I've flown a Cessna 152 in the summer. It's not fun. It's really not practical, either. Wait until June, go fly a 152 to Salida. Then contact me, we'll take my 180 to Salida. You'll be convinced.
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I may take you up on that.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I have upgraded mine to 160hp plus a Power Flow exhaust. I have yet to fly it.

I don’t think the power flow exhaust really ADDS hp to the engine. Since its a tuned system, it releases the horsepower you lost with that convoluted Piper factory exhaust.
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I think you will like it! Not going to go faster (pretty sure you knew that) but you will see better climb and it does sound different. The PowerFlow is a far better design with superior materials of construction. Gets rid of that abominable carb heat muff and the rat-trap muffler. IMHO, a much safer setup.
 
So I see many of you are recomending the 180. I recently found a 140 for sale but was converted to 180hp. According to the seller it recieved the Avcon conversion, but the downside to this is that it currently has SMOH 1724hrs, only 276 hours until next overhaul is recomended. Does anyone have info on these conversions?
 
I'm just going to pile on the "get a 180 bandwagon", with a point that I don't think folks have said yet. The 180 vs 140/150 might seem like only a 20 or 28.5% increase, but that's misleading. It takes a certain amount of HP just to get it to fly at all, and that's dependent on density altitude and weight. And even in the flat northeast, a 150 is really a two person airplane. Here, me solo and under 200 lbs, I can't take full fuel and clear trees at the end of some airports on some summer days in a 150. With a 180 it's not a problem. The climb rate and performance is significantly better. With 200 or 235, it becomes, in my opinion, a 4 person plane, at least here.

If you lived in the NE, same mission, I'd say 150 is fine unless you wanted to be based at a short obstructed field.
 
Walboy said:
In addition to what others have said, keep in mind for commercial pilot certificate training it would have to fit the definition of Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA) which means it must have:

Electronic primary flight display​
Multifunction display​
Two axis autopilot​
​
Most likely it would be more cost effective to rent during commercial training phase.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the AP needs to be coupled to the nav system to be TAA.
 
Albany Tom said:
I'm just going to pile on the "get a 180 bandwagon", with a point that I don't think folks have said yet. The 180 vs 140/150 might seem like only a 20 or 28.5% increase, but that's misleading. It takes a certain amount of HP just to get it to fly at all, and that's dependent on density altitude and weight. And even in the flat northeast, a 150 is really a two person airplane. Here, me solo and under 200 lbs, I can't take full fuel and clear trees at the end of some airports on some summer days in a 150. With a 180 it's not a problem. The climb rate and performance is significantly better. With 200 or 235, it becomes, in my opinion, a 4 person plane, at least here.

If you lived in the NE, same mission, I'd say 150 is fine unless you wanted to be based at a short obstructed field.
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Exactly. Say it takes 120 HP to fly. A 150 HP aircraft has 30 HP for acceleration and climb. The same airframe with a 180 has 60 HP for accerate and climb. LOTS more climb performance.
 
The issue will come down to the climb performance here. You will be dealing with ATC and wanting to do multiple missed approaches etc for your Instrument rating. Aften in crowded airspace. Cool days with safety pilot and you will be barley adequate. Hot days you will be climbing forever. The performance just isn't there for much of your needs at this altitude. You would be better off with a C150/150. Maybe wait until you have the ratings/licenses then buy something for a timebuilder.
 
I see someone has homed in on what this decision has to be based on when it comes to engine selection .... “Density Altitude”. Hand in hand will come take off and climb performance requirements for your area of operation (terrain), at various practical weights (student and instructor with tabs fuel being a good starting point).

As we all know, “hot and high” is not very kind to non turbocharged piston engines !
 
Albany Tom said:
I'm just going to pile on the "get a 180 bandwagon", with a point that I don't think folks have said yet. The 180 vs 140/150 might seem like only a 20 or 28.5% increase, but that's misleading. It takes a certain amount of HP just to get it to fly at all, and that's dependent on density altitude and weight. And even in the flat northeast, a 150 is really a two person airplane. Here, me solo and under 200 lbs, I can't take full fuel and clear trees at the end of some airports on some summer days in a 150. With a 180 it's not a problem. The climb rate and performance is significantly better. With 200 or 235, it becomes, in my opinion, a 4 person plane, at least here.

If you lived in the NE, same mission, I'd say 150 is fine unless you wanted to be based at a short obstructed field.
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Well said! I have just restored a PA28-140 with a 150 engine that is operated on the flat as a two seater and only ever fill to tabs in the summer.
 
I owned a 1968 Cherokee 140 with 160 power upgrade for 14 years. It was a nice bird but under powered on warm days or at high density altitude. I have cruised it as high as 12,500 in the summer but it took a long time to get there. It will make 7500 or 8500 but lack of power is noticeable.

I traded up to a 1964 200hp Mooney Super21. At 10,000 it is still climbing at 400 ft per minute. The short bodied Mooneys are almost the same inside as the Cherokee, but slightly narrower, and they have an external baggage door for loading from the top down. All mechanical systems 200 HP IO-360 and I can cruise 140 kts TAS at 8GPH LOP. If you don't need a lot of extra room, it is hard combination to beat.

I LOVE mine.
 
Walboy said:
In addition to what others have said, keep in mind for commercial pilot certificate training it would have to fit the definition of Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA)
Click to expand...

I thought it's just a 10 hour requirement in TAA or complex for commercial. You could just rent for those hours to meet that requirement if your desired training plane wasn't TAA/complex, right?
 
Meadow Lake Airport has a field elevation 6878 feet. Is this even a fair question?

Maybe if you only wanted to fly for fun occasionally. Not if you want to get the extra ratings though.

Move someplace else, or get a more powerful aircraft, are the only logical answers.
 
If I were in COS I would only buy a PA28-140 if it has 1) the 160hp upgrade, 2) a climb prop 3) a powerflow exhaust (or add it), and I only fill it up to the tabs in the summer. If you can stretch your purchase price limit, get a more powerful PA28 like the others have said.
 
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Thinair9 said:
Hello,

Im looking to buy a Piper cherokee in the near future but I want to make an educated decision before doing so. I live in Colorado Springs and would be looking to store my plane at Meadow Lake (FLY). My goal is to become a commercial pilot and I want to buy something that I can use for both PPL, instrument, and commercial training. I realize many older cherokees do not have IFR capabilities but that can be changed with some avonics upgrades and reselling in the future is not a concern since I would plan to keep it for a long time. My biggest concern is that I was told by a CFI at the flying club where I train, to buy a 180 instead of a 140 because of power, but is it an absolute necessity to buy a 180 or even a 235? Can I get away with a 140 especially since it fits the bill better? I've seen other people owning them in mountinous areas such as Colorado, Montana, and Utah. I also want to point out that I intend to use it for solo cross countrys where it's just me and maybe a duffle bag for holiday/weekend getaways. This will be my first aircraft purchase.
Click to expand...
Definitely drop the idea of the PA-28-140! I ran a flight school for 30 years and did a full glass cockpit conversion on one thinking the same thing. It did not have the power to get up to altitude fast enough for doing several practice approaches. And this was at near sea level airports! The savings you get from buying one will get eaten away buy the extra time needed to get it up at altitude. Also, the PA-28-180 was the best all around flight trainer I have ever flown! You will be much better off with the PA-28-180!
 
Thinair9 said:
Hello,

Im looking to buy a Piper cherokee in the near future but I want to make an educated decision before doing so. I live in Colorado Springs and would be looking to store my plane at Meadow Lake (FLY). My goal is to become a commercial pilot and I want to buy something that I can use for both PPL, instrument, and commercial training. I realize many older cherokees do not have IFR capabilities but that can be changed with some avonics upgrades and reselling in the future is not a concern since I would plan to keep it for a long time. My biggest concern is that I was told by a CFI at the flying club where I train, to buy a 180 instead of a 140 because of power, but is it an absolute necessity to buy a 180 or even a 235? Can I get away with a 140 especially since it fits the bill better? I've seen other people owning them in mountinous areas such as Colorado, Montana, and Utah. I also want to point out that I intend to use it for solo cross countrys where it's just me and maybe a duffle bag for holiday/weekend getaways. This will be my first aircraft purchase.
Click to expand...
You need at least a 180 hp plane because of where you live.
Don’t buy anything less.
I have flown a 160hp pa28-140 and I would not recommend it where you live.
 
If you end up with a 140 ditch the wheel pants, take out the back seat and don't haul around a bunch of fuel you're not going to need. Keep it as light as possible and it can work. But, as you know, you never hear anyone complaining that "this plane has WAY too much power" so there is that...
 
What you need is a pa28-140 with the Rotax 915 STC
 
Since it sounds like cost is a consideration, consider this. The real cost is not the purchase price. It is the cost to purchase less the amount you can sell it for. You may pay more but it is worth more. There is no question there is a market for a 140 in many parts of the country. Not as much in Colorado. When I was flying out of Aspen or even Glenwood Springs, Rifle, or Eagle, you had to pay very close attention to the density altitude.

If you are open to experimental, go for a flight in an RV or similar. After being in a 180 or 172 you will be really surprised. I did my training and license in my 9A and am working on instrument flying now. This is not at altitude or really an aggressive climb out but fully loaded we were at 6500' from less than 1000 in just over 5 minutes. It does not have 4 seats but I cant imagine a 140 could fill 4 seats anyway. climb out.jpg
 
Out there, I'd go for a -235. Or a 182, better still. Horsepower is always your friend and more so at high DA like those west of the Mississippi.
 
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