Busy Airport or Quiet Non-Towered Airport - Which is best for learning?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Recently (as I've stated in other posts), I returned to flying after a 40 year break. At 17, I got my PL, and then ran out of money. I just got current again and passed my BFR.

I wanted to share my thoughts about learning at a busy airport not because they apply to everyone, but because I thought the perspective might be of value. I'm sure others would have different thoughts.

I chose to learn at Van Nuys, which boasts it's the busiest GA airport anywhere. That may or may not be true, but I can tell you, it is BUSY.

It's not uncommon to have 3 planes ahead of you on final, and a jet next to you, sometimes really close (the parallel runways aren't that far apart).

Would I make the same choice of Van Nuys again? No. Why?

I think a better approach would be to learn the basics at an airport where you can focus on flying, and THEN move ASAP to a busy airport if there's one around. For me, I would have learned faster that way. Since in effect I was a student pilot (still only 80 hours, with 60 of them 40 years ago), all the distractions at KVNY were...just that...distractions. "Go Around" "Extend final to follow Cessna 182 approaching 118, number 4 for landing on 16L; caution wake turbulence from Gulfstream on 16R. Advise when traffic is in sight." "Traffic close behind you on final; please exit Kilo if possible."

Yes, many of us need to learn to operate at busy airports. But for me personally, with 20 / 20 hindsight, starting with a smaller airport and then graduating to KVNY would have been better.

My dream is to find an airport this weekend with less traffic and without KVNY's crosswinds / gusts...to see what a "normal" landing is like.

Just my 2 cents. Hope this is valuable for others faced with the same decision.
 
I can somewhat agree with this point of view. I am currently a student at KISM, which is the closest airport to Disney World and is just outside of KMCO. As you may imagine, there is quite a bit of traffic at any given time.

This has affected my training in ways that are both positive and negative. Starting off at a busy, towered airport caused such an airport to be the norm to me, which makes un-towered, slow airports to be quite the treat.

On the flip side, there have been many occasions where it gets so busy that we have to extend downwind quite a distance, or are waiting in line to take off for 20 minutes; both are situations which, in the long run, cost you more money and can be stressful for a new pilot.
 
Learned at a very busy one because that's where I'd be based, which is a better way to go, I'd say. Then learning untowered feels easier, not that either way is a big deal, just do it.
 
I instructed at both a semi-rural field and Boeing Field. After I moved to BFI, if I met one of my country-mouse graduates and asked about their progress, they would express a tendency to stay away from places like Boeing. My Boeing students, on the other hand, had no problem with going to country-mouse airport and doing pattern work or eating a $100 burger. My conclusion is that training at a busy airport makes for a more complete pilot.

Bob Gardner
 
Just do both.

My primary training was based at a pretty busy (it's all relative) towered airport, but it's a pretty quick flight over to non-busy non-towered airports for whatever work you want to do without having to deal with other traffic.
 
"Busy" towered airports have light times, and "light" nontowered airports have busy times.

I challenge anyone to compare KSTS to O69 on a really nice Saturday. KSTS is towered, has service by Alaska Airlines (ATR-42), and is kinda sleepy. O69 is nontowered, but has a swarm of ultralights and is a well known $100 hamburger destination.

All student pilots must become competent at Class D ops per experience requirements. Class C ops are a really good idea. It's very limiting to be less than completely comfortable in complex airspace.
 
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noobie opinion here........I picked a non-towered to start my training, and so far I'm happy with it but once I reach a certain level of comfort I'll def want to hit busier, towered airports.
 
Quiet, untowered field just outside a busy Charlie.
 
Reading posts in various forums and observing pilots who learned in the sticks is instructive as to their attitudes about "the dreaded class Bravo".

I think primacy trumps recency in this particular area and that many pilots never become comfortable in the more-controlled airspace. One particular friend is very articulate and well-spoken in every other area, but just can't spit it out when the mic button is depressed. He learned at a small airport and now flies to town frequently but it's painful to listen to him.

bobmrg said:
I instructed at both a semi-rural field and Boeing Field. After I moved to BFI, if I met one of my country-mouse graduates and asked about their progress, they would express a tendency to stay away from places like Boeing. My Boeing students, on the other hand, had no problem with going to country-mouse airport and doing pattern work or eating a $100 burger. My conclusion is that training at a busy airport makes for a more complete pilot.

Bob Gardner
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I trained at Class D (KGTU), and class E.

After I did my check ride I was quite comfortable flying into and landing at anything up to and including class B.

I know folks with many more years and hours than I have that are terrified of Towered airports, and will never land at them, and vice versa.

-Dan
 
You'll be able to spend more training time, as opposed to sitting in a conga line, at a quiet airport.
 
jnmeade said:
You'll be able to spend more training time, as opposed to sitting in a conga line, at a quiet airport.
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That's true, Jim...but training will be only a small portion of a pilot's aviation life experience. If he plans to use the kilobucks spent on training to do nothing more than hamburger runs and pancake breakfasts, then country mouse is fine. When he has 1000 hours of flying into just about anywhere, the amount of time spent in a conga line during training will fade into insignificance. There is a cost factor, of course, but in the long run it will be worth it to get the busy-airport experience.

Bob Gardner
 
I think I would have to agree with Bob Gardner on that point. I trained at a busy towered airport, and left more comfortable flying in to towered airports than non-towered airports because that was the focus of my training. Afterwards, the majority of my destinations have been non-towered airports, so that skill was eventually more fully developed. I'm not certain the converse would have been as true, if I did primary training at a non-towered airport.
 
bobmrg said:
I instructed at both a semi-rural field and Boeing Field. After I moved to BFI, if I met one of my country-mouse graduates and asked about their progress, they would express a tendency to stay away from places like Boeing. My Boeing students, on the other hand, had no problem with going to country-mouse airport and doing pattern work or eating a $100 burger. My conclusion is that training at a busy airport makes for a more complete pilot.

Bob Gardner
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I agree with this. I train at KMYF, perhaps not as busy as KVNY on any given day, but damn busy most days and especially on weekends. But there's something to be said for learning situational awareness along with the pattern work and takeoffs/landings. I have yet to fly into any other airport (towered or non-towered) where I have been intimidated by the activity or uncertain about the traffic around me.

And as another poster pointed out, if you need some quiet time to focus on some aspects of the training, there are less busy airports within easy flying distance.
 
I learned at a smaller airport, but a didn't feel uncomfortable at larger ones. I instructed at Long Beach, CA but with the parallel GA runways, we didn't have too much delays. I think there's a middle of the road solution. Several of the busy schools in the Orlando area fly their students to other airports to get pattern work in.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Yes, many of us need to learn to operate at busy airports. But for me personally, with 20 / 20 hindsight, starting with a smaller airport and then graduating to KVNY would have been better.
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I agree. I practiced in a grass strip and a local paved non-towered airport. I got very limited tower experience--just the bare minimum to get PPL. Getting instrument rated helped a lot, but working in a busier environment would have helped me overall.
 
I started at KASH, during a time when it was very busy. This is a towered airport.

I finished at KAEG, during a time when it was very slow. This was a non-towered airport (it has a tower now).

I think both are necessary to form a well rounded pilot. To wit - many of my CFIs at KAEG were very uncomfortable calling ABQ for services. I, as a student, was not. At the same time, my CFI at KASH was nervous about flying into KFIT (a non-towered airport) because he spent so much time working with a controller.

I became super pilot, because I was comfortable with everything.
 
KOLM isn't super busy, but it does have a tower. So, I had the best of both worlds when I was a student pilot. Tower ops are second nature, but it's really rare to have someone ahead of you in line after doing your run-up. Sharing the pattern with 1 or 2 other planes isn't unheard of. And, busy places like KBFI aren't far away if you need them. Been there twice. Once as a student pilot and one evening working on my IR. That evening we got vectored all over the place as it must have been a push time for FedEx. Oh well, good practice.
 
bobmrg said:
I instructed at both a semi-rural field and Boeing Field. After I moved to BFI, if I met one of my country-mouse graduates and asked about their progress, they would express a tendency to stay away from places like Boeing. My Boeing students, on the other hand, had no problem with going to country-mouse airport and doing pattern work or eating a $100 burger. My conclusion is that training at a busy airport makes for a more complete pilot.

Bob Gardner
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I agree with you. I was fully competent and capable when I flew into DFW and landed on a taxi way with jets all around us. As a primary student at a busy airport I had been well prepared by my instructor.

wabower said:
Reading posts in various forums and observing pilots who learned in the sticks is instructive as to their attitudes about "the dreaded class Bravo".

I think primacy trumps recency in this particular area and that many pilots never become comfortable in the more-controlled airspace. One particular friend is very articulate and well-spoken in every other area, but just can't spit it out when the mic button is depressed. He learned at a small airport and now flies to town frequently but it's painful to listen to him.
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We had a guy that was a crop duster. He could fly the pants of an airplane but could not bring himself to press the PTT. He would fly 60 miles around to keep from talking to ATC.

Sac Arrow said:
I think I would have to agree with Bob Gardner onthat point. I trained at a busy towered airport, and left more comfortable flying in to towered airports than non-towered airports because that was the focus of my training. Afterwards, the majority of my destinations have been non-towered airports, so that skill was eventually more fully developed. I'm not certain the converse would have been as true, if I did primary training at a non-towered airport.
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Yep..Me too.
 
I've been learning out of KCOS (Class C) and I've been happy with its level of busyness, just enough to get me a comfortable dealing with ATC on a regular basis.

Going to an untowered airport is cake after training in Class C for as long as I have. I am pretty confident that wouldn't work nearly as well the other way around, going to a Class C from untowered.
 
I started my training at non towered airport (KGIF) it was a reasonably busy airport so gave me some experience of working with other traffic when in the pattern, my flight school relocated to a class delta airport (KLAL) where I finished up my training, personally I think the transition to the class Delta airport and working on comms with ATC has been invaluable to help me now I am on X/C trips, I feel more confident on the radio and more confident when in the traffic environment of a busy towered airport.
 
The smaller and less busy the airport, the more flying you'll do for an hour of hobbs time.

It's not just a towered field that will make things expensive. Learn to fly out of a former SAC base and the taxi to the far end threshold will take 8 minutes. If your less is only an hour, that's a lot of time.

Ideally, you want exposure to a variety of airport environments. The best scenario is to be based out of a moderately busy towered field with a number small, less busy non-towered airports nearby. Do your pattern work at the non-towereds, and fly home to the busier towered airports.
 
My recommendation would be to train at a busy, tower controlled field.

I got my PPL at 22 years old in 1989 training out of a non-towered airport in TN. My first log book entry was at age 12, so it took a while of off and on work with my CFII dad to finally take the check ride. This airport initially had a grass field then moved to gravel and finally paved. Beyond the required 3 arrivals at a controlled field, all of my work was at non-controlled airports. Needless to say, I was very unfamiliar with radio procedures at towered airports and with the system in general.

After the PPL and college graduation, I moved to the SF Bay area. LOT's of traffic, LOT's of airspace, VERY intimidating to someone with my inexperience with radio work and airspace. For that reason and others, I didn't fly again for many years. My license sat unused on a shelf for 22 years. In 2011, I decided to take the plunge and get back into it. I worked with a great instructor at Palo Alto to get a tailwheel endorsement and also to learn how to deal with the radio and airspace. He handled the radio work for the first few hours and then let me take over. There's no way I would have been able to successfully deal with the airspace and radio work required without working with a good instructor familiar with those procedures.


We bought an airplane last year and initially kept it at an uncontrolled field (E16) in San Martin 45 minutes from home. When a hanger became available at San Jose International (KSJC) only 5 minutes from home, I jumped on that and am very comfortable dealing with the class C radio/airspace issues.


Looking back, it would have been MUCH better for me to have started out from the beginning at a busy airport. Every takeoff and landing, all ground operations, all arrivals and departures to the practice area, etc., would have immersed me in the radio work and airspace issues. I would have been ready upon receiving the PPL to deal with that. Just flying with my instructor and listening to him deal with the radio (while I was trying to keep the tailwheel following me on takeoffs and landings instead of me following the tailwheel) allowed me to absorb the phraseology, customs, and procedures.
 
jnmeade said:
You'll be able to spend more training time, as opposed to sitting in a conga line, at a quiet airport.
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This was my only complaint starting at KTEB.... there are better, cheaper ways to het the ground-handling chops.
I also trained at sleepy ol' N07, and although I think you'll do better if you are familiar with both worlds, neither is exclusively "better." Those "quiet" airports can get pretty crazy, and sometimes dealing with controllers at big airports with mixed traffic can be a
breeze.
Obvioisly, if you start at a towered field with heavy traffic and a complicated layout, etc. the instructor will deal with all that while you get a handle on basic airplane handling, so it shouldn't be a problem for a beginner.
But the best plan is to deal with both worlds during your training, with an instructor who is comfy with each environment.
 
This is kind of a tough question to answer as I doubt many have experience learning in both kinds of airports. I'm very glad I learned at a relatively busy class C airport in the New York Area. I don't fear ATC or mixing in with commercial airplanes. I also think that learning in an environment where multiple situations can present themselves made me a more rounded pilot. Just doing laps around the pattern may make you a better flyer of an airplane do to the increased repetition but, those of us who fly know that being a pilot is much more involved than just greasing landings. I'll take my towered airport experience any day.
 
Like some have said, both. I learned at a decently busy non-towered airport (Bay Bridge W29) just outside the DC SFRA with 3 Class Bs nearby and 2 Class Ds even closer. I have no problem flying around at Podunk farm field, no do I have any problem asking for a Class B transition when I want it. In fact, I requested and got Class B transitions the last two times I was up, one basically right over downtown Baltimore and the Inner Harbor!
 
I'm based at a busy GA reliever for DFW and involved in several different aspects of the aviation business. I'm constantly dismayed by the number of pilots seeking to fly into this area who are deterred by the fact that they must deal with the Class B, control towers and other stuff that should be old hat for today's airmen.
 
No question in my mind that at the initial stages, a quiet non-towered airport is the best place to learn. A busy, tower-controlled airport provides too many distractions and too much interference with the teaching process at that point. Once the trainee gets those fundamentals down, you can introduced additional problems with which to deal.
 
I feel fortunate. I will take my check ride this Sunday. My home base is a towered but not too busy class C KBHM. You may have 2 or 3 in the que at a time. I feel very comfortable on the radios now (not so much at first and it was a definite distraction.) We typically fly 15 min away and do pattern work at nearby smaller airports. I feel like I've gotten the best of both worlds.
The most stressful for me was flying into a busy but non-towered field KJKA.
 
Ron Levy said:
No question in my mind that at the initial stages, a quiet non-towered airport is the best place to learn. A busy, tower-controlled airport provides too many distractions and too much interference with the teaching process at that point. Once the trainee gets those fundamentals down, you can introduced additional problems with which to deal.
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How about an empty towered airport?

PAO is pretty quiet at 7:30AM on a Tuesday.

I've had Tower get bored enough to give feedback on landings....

You can control this stuff with careful timing. PAO only really gets bad on CAVU Saturday afternoons in spring and summer. It's not even all that bad on a Sunday.
 
I would say it depends a bit on what you plan to use it for. I learned at a very remote non-towered airport and I would say a lot of the students had problems with using the radio and being scared of busy airports. On the flip side my friends that learned at busier airports sometimes have difficulties with not having a tower to tell them what to do.

I spend about 99% of my flying time doing longer cross countries and I would say that I favor learning at a busier airport. I think it is easier to overcome learning uncontrolled communications vs the fear that can develop with busy airspace and high volume radio traffic.

Just my two cents and highly subjective.
 
rottydaddy said:
This was my only complaint starting at KTEB.... there are better, cheaper ways to het the ground-handling chops.
I also trained at sleepy ol' N07, and although I think you'll do better if you are familiar with both worlds, neither is exclusively "better." Those "quiet" airports can get pretty crazy, and sometimes dealing with controllers at big airports with mixed traffic can be a
breeze.
Obvioisly, if you start at a towered field with heavy traffic and a complicated layout, etc. the instructor will deal with all that while you get a handle on basic airplane handling, so it shouldn't be a problem for a beginner.
But the best plan is to deal with both worlds during your training, with an instructor who is comfy with each environment.
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Yep
Another student of Teterboro (TEB.) here. Class of '98/99.
Yes it was a bit much to take in as a student. A busy class-D airport in the midst of JFK, EWR & LGA.

You had to talk to clearance delivery, ground, then tower. Depart and stay below the Newark class B, while threading the needle to get to Morristown (MMU) for touch & go's or over to Caldwell (CDW).

But you know what, I'm so glad that I learned in that environment. Now I'm based at another "busy" delta on the other side of JFK....Republic (FRG) :)

Also did a lot of non-towered training back then, so I've never felt uncomfortable in that environment.
 
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I learned in Carrollton Ga, sleepy non-towered airport, one jet and one turbo-prop at the time, both owned by the same company.:rolleyes: My CFI taught me how to fly around Atlanta without talking to anyone, what altitudes and routes didn't require a clearance!:mad2: it was several years before I got truly comfortable in tower operations and I avoided them as best I could.:no:
My son learned at FTY, towered, not extremely busy, but it has it's moments. He's very comfortable on the radio except..........wait for it...........at uncontrolled fields! :dunno:
I don't think it really matters as long as you spend time at both and are comfortable in either situation. :D
 
I'm still pre-solo and learning at KFRG which is a pretty busy Class D airport under Class B sandwiched between KJFK and KISP. I know if I was at an untowered airport I probably would have soloed already, but I like the challenge of talking to tower. It makes me feel more confident. I also know, or at least plan, to stay in this area for the foreseeable future so might as well get use to it. Even though it's busy, and today I was 7th to land at a point, we were still able to make 9 landings in 1.5 hours. I like that I'm exposed to doing S turns to create distance, or learning that ATC can request for us to turn 15 degrees after taking off so the jet behind us can take off right after. I'll be thrown off less often after training with those things.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
My dream is to find an airport this weekend with less traffic and without KVNY's crosswinds / gusts...to see what a normal landing is like.
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go over the hill to SZP; watch for any NORDOs.
 
I'm very grateful that I learned at a towered field (ASH). I feel like my experience with the tower controllers and busier traffic environment around Boston has made me a better pilot and significantly improved my radio skills. I've met too many pilots who are embarrassed on the radio or afraid of controllers which IMHO is a serious skills gap. If such pilots go on to study for an IFR rating they seem to have a much harder time (and take longer) as well.

That said, I wish I'd spend some more time with untowered ops at some of the other nearby airports before the XC phase of training. Manchester (MHT - Class C) is right nearby, and my CFI did take me there before my solo because MHT is probably the best place to go back into if you have an issue while solo requiring a long wide runway or crosswind runway, or if Nashua had to close the single runway down for some reason. I would have had no trouble dealing with Approach and getting into Manchester as a pre-solo student and that's the way it should be, IMHO. But we didn't spend any time at non-towered airports (Nick - I had a similar experience and never went to FIT from ASH... silly!) before solo and most of my non-towered operations experience has been after getting my ticket. I can think of one or two examples with the ink still wet on my certificate where I hemmed and hawed about what direction to land at an empty non-towered field where there was a direct crosswind of less than 5 knots and the wind sock was drifting around.

A balance is best. No matter where you train you and your CFI should seek out different scenarios.
 
Aviatrix said:
I'm still pre-solo and learning at KFRG which is a pretty busy Class D airport under Class B sandwiched between KJFK and KISP. I know if I was at an untowered airport I probably would have soloed already, but I like the challenge of talking to tower. It makes me feel more confident. I also know, or at least plan, to stay in this area for the foreseeable future so might as well get use to it. Even though it's busy, and today I was 7th to land at a point, we were still able to make 9 landings in 1.5 hours. I like that I'm exposed to doing S turns to create distance, or learning that ATC can request for us to turn 15 degrees after taking off so the jet behind us can take off right after. I'll be thrown off less often after training with those things.
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As well as the occasional 360 on final to allow that Gulfstream to get in:D
 
Fly at a quiet towered airport. It promotes the social program that keeps the lesser qualified controllers employed while increasing the federal deficit.
 
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