Busted Bravo

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bullwinkle said:
So if you didn't want to get caught, fly to someplace not your home field with no tower, then turn off the transponder and fly home?
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I've thought about that. The problem is that your flight originated somewhere, and unless "somewhere" is a ghost town, someone at the FBO or tower probably noted your departure. So all the FAA needs to do is run the radar tape in reverse, find out where the flight started, and make a few calls. Won't always work for them, but your odds of remaining anonymous aren't something to take to the bank.
 
kyleb said:
I've thought about that. The problem is that your flight originated somewhere, and unless "somewhere" is a ghost town, someone at the FBO or tower probably noted your departure. So all the FAA needs to do is run the radar tape in reverse, find out where the flight started, and make a few calls. Won't always work for them, but your odds of remaining anonymous aren't something to take to the bank.
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And the bigger issue is if they DO find you, they have radar data that conclusively proves you willfully tried to evade detection, which takes it from a wrist slap or short suspension to a ticket ender.

Ron is right...don't bust B-space. If you do, fess up, fill out the NASA form, and get a lawyer.

When I was a cop, I can't tell you how many simple DUIs turned into felony charges because the offender thought he'd get clever and evade the police, causing the charges to start stacking very quickly. Some people will go to prison for 1-5 years to try to avoid a six month license suspension...don't be that guy.
 
I too busted the Bravo today. I haven't flown in almost 4 months because work has been too demanding. I thought I could sneak off for a $100 burger, but I guess not.

I climbed too agressively out of the home 'drome which is under the B shelf, and I evidently substantially entered the Bravo. So they say. I had no knowledge of this goof prior to the call. When I landed at the Burger location I got the dreaded "I have a number for you to call".

In spite of other threads warning pilots to not comply, I called right away. I can't emphasize how nice the guy on the phone was. "Look it is no big deal here because you didn't interfere with any traffic, so just be more careful and enjoy the rest of the day." It was a conversation a bit longer than that... but that is a good paraphrase of the message I got.

I'm still kicking myself for flying when so distracted by work issues. I keep telling myself this too shall pass but the end is not in sight. I'm just going to have to stay on the ground until I can completely focus on the task at hand....

Fly safe, guys...
 
What other threads recommend to not comply? That's crazy. If you call there's a chance to talk it through and the controller, QA, FSDO or whomever that matters might let you go. By not calling, you've signaled to them that you either don't care or you're trying to avoid punishment. Not smart.

A bud of mine violated a no fly area within a restricted area. He was given a number to call ATC but never called. That didn't end well for him.
 
bullwinkle said:
When I was a cop, I can't tell you how many simple DUIs turned into felony charges because the offender thought he'd get clever and evade the police, causing the charges to start stacking very quickly. Some people will go to prison for 1-5 years to try to avoid a six month license suspension...don't be that guy.
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Amateurs! The handful of times I decided not to stop, they never caught me. Of course, I wasn't under the influence when I decided to do so either.
 
OP here. After seeing the responses I think I understand perhaps why nothing happened. When I quickly dropped down below the shelf it was in an area where the shelf was only about 1500 feet AGL so I got quite low probably less than 1000 ft AGL and there was an airport there too. If someone was watching me they probably thought I was landing at that airport and then I was perhaps too low for radar detection at that point. I then flew low away from the area, then came back up again. I probably looked like I disappeared then a new target popped up again perhaps since there are lots of airports around there. This was completely by accident I wasn't trying to hide I was just making sure I got out of Bravo as quickly as possible.

I didn't tell my CFI after I heard nothing from my home tower. The way I reasoned it is if the tower said nothing then I'm probably okay and I opened my big mouth and alerted my CFI he would probably have said something. I'm glad it all worked out and I will never get this distracted again.
 
EdFred said:
Amateurs! The handful of times I decided not to stop, they never caught me. Of course, I wasn't under the influence when I decided to do so either.
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It's really hard to outrun helicopters and radio waves. It ain't 1960 anymore, and police are a LOT more aggressive about catching "runners" than they used to be.
 
bullwinkle said:
It's really hard to outrun helicopters and radio waves. It ain't 1960 anymore, and police are a LOT more aggressive about catching "runners" than they used to be.
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As far as I know none of the local departments have a helicopter. And radios only work when there's someone nearby to radio to, and they actually know where you were going. All my evasions ended after the first turn-off. If they don't know where you went, they can't tell someone where to find you.
 
Unregistered said:
I didn't tell my CFI after I heard nothing from my home tower. The way I reasoned it is if the tower said nothing then I'm probably okay and I opened my big mouth and alerted my CFI he would probably have said something. I'm glad it all worked out and I will never get this distracted again.
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He would have said something TO YOU, yes. Discussed what happened, why, and how to make sure it doesn't happen again. He might have chewed you out too, but that depends on what kind of CFI he is. What he almost certainly would NOT have done is alert the FSDO, because as others have pointed out it's his ticket on the line, when you're a solo student pilot.
 
EdFred said:
As far as I know none of the local departments have a helicopter. And radios only work when there's someone nearby to radio to, and they actually know where you were going. All my evasions ended after the first turn-off. If they don't know where you went, they can't tell someone where to find you.
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Police are taught not to necessarily overrun a fleeing vehicle, but instead to just maintain visual contact and wait for the other drive to make a mistake.

If you are on the interstate and pass a police car going the other way, and can run really fast and off an exit out of sight of the police vehicle before he gets turned around, you *might* make it. Anything else, I give your chances at 10% or less.

Unless you just robbed a bank or murdered somebody, running from the police is really, really dumb. It almost always ends in tears, and about 25% of the time in fatalities. Risking that to avoid a $200 ticket is insanity.
 
bullwinkle said:
Police are taught not to necessarily overrun a fleeing vehicle, but instead to just maintain visual contact and wait for the other drive to make a mistake.

If you are on the interstate and pass a police car going the other way, and can run really fast and off an exit out of sight of the police vehicle before he gets turned around, you *might* make it. Anything else, I give your chances at 10% or less.

Unless you just robbed a bank or murdered somebody, running from the police is really, really dumb. It almost always ends in tears, and about 25% of the time in fatalities. Risking that to avoid a $200 ticket is insanity.
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Oh, the one would have most certainly been jail time had I stopped before running. 2 lane road, speed limit 55, I'm behind some jackhole doing 40 the entire way into town. Unable to pass due to oncoming traffic. We get into a small town where speed limit drops to 25mph in town, but it's 2 lanes each direction. No problem, right? We are stopped at a light, and I slowly get up to about 30, figuring he's in no hurry and I can get in front of him, so I don't have to follow him for the next 13 miles. Nope. He goes 30. I go 40, he goes 40. By the time we get to the edge of town, I'm doing over 70mph, maybe even 80 to pass the guy - still in a 25.

Police is parked and facing me as I come around the last curve. He slows down, I don't. I know I'm busted hard if I stop. I hit the gas as his lights come on and he starts to pull out. The road curved again, and he lost visual on me. Hard brake, left turn, two cars coming the opposite direction turn behind me onto the road, and in my rear view I watch the red and blues go whizzing by on the road that I was on. I made another right and paralleled the road I was originally on for about 6 miles before getting back on it.

Yeah, my age still started with a 1 at the time. The time involving a train crossing, didn't however.
 
I was headed south on I-390 out of Rochester headed for Baltimore late one night, literally all alone on the road. I flew past a state trooper sitting dark in the median, and immediately saw his lights fire up just as I passed him. I pulled over as quickly as I could without lighting up my tires, as was sitting on the shoulder about 1 mile down the road before he could even roll up on me. Conveniently for him, it was right before the next exit.

After the expected exchange of pleasantries, and papers, he asked why I pulled over -- I said I was the only one on the road so I figured he wanted to talk to me. So he avoided a high-speed pursuit, found a compliant driver who was sober and alert. After running my plates and licence, I got off with a warning. I saw him from my rear-view make the convenient U-turn to get back to his fishing hole looking for a bigger fish.

bullwinkle said:
Police are taught not to necessarily overrun a fleeing vehicle, but instead to just maintain visual contact and wait for the other drive to make a mistake.

If you are on the interstate and pass a police car going the other way, and can run really fast and off an exit out of sight of the police vehicle before he gets turned around, you *might* make it. Anything else, I give your chances at 10% or less.

Unless you just robbed a bank or murdered somebody, running from the police is really, really dumb. It almost always ends in tears, and about 25% of the time in fatalities. Risking that to avoid a $200 ticket is insanity.
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DJTorrente said:
I was headed south on I-390 out of Rochester headed for Baltimore late one night, literally all alone on the road. I flew past a state trooper sitting dark in the median, and immediately saw his lights fire up just as I passed him. I pulled over as quickly as I could without lighting up my tires, as was sitting on the shoulder about 1 mile down the road before he could even roll up on me. Conveniently for him, it was right before the next exit.

After the expected exchange of pleasantries, and papers, he asked why I pulled over -- I said I was the only one on the road so I figured he wanted to talk to me. So he avoided a high-speed pursuit, found a compliant driver who was sober and alert. After running my plates and licence, I got off with a warning. I saw him from my rear-view make the convenient U-turn to get back to his fishing hole looking for a bigger fish.
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I did that once too, albeit not an interstate. I still got a ticket. Of course, they were also doing courthouse renovations, so there's no way I was getting a warning. I have a 100% success rate in not stopping, and a 20% success rate when stopping. For me, it pays not to stop.
 
EdFred said:
For me, it pays not to stop.
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Until it doesn't. The one time you run and DO get caught, I guarantee you will wish you had stopped. You will go to jail, probably take a multi-officer beating, and probably have damage done to your vehicle as they jerk you out of it.

That's the best case of course. Worst case is you have an accident and kill somebody, or the cop has an accident and kills somebody or himself. In any of those scenarios it is felony MURDER. 10-20 years to avoid a ticket.
 
bullwinkle said:
Until it doesn't. The one time you run and DO get caught, I guarantee you will wish you had stopped. You will go to jail, probably take a multi-officer beating, and probably have damage done to your vehicle as they jerk you out of it.

That's the best case of course. Worst case is you have an accident and kill somebody, or the cop has an accident and kills somebody or himself. In any of those scenarios it is felony MURDER. 10-20 years to avoid a ticket.
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Nah, they will probably skip the beating since they will see I have a concealed pistol license, just assume I'm carrying, and put a few hundred rounds into the car. In which case, I'll be dead, and someone (not me of course) will be getting paid a settlement.

But why should I be responsible for a cop's ****ty driving skills? Maybe he needs more training since he's the "professional."
 
EdFred said:
But why should I be responsible for a cop's ****ty driving skills? Maybe he needs more training since he's the "professional."
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Because under the law, any result of a felony rest with the felon. If you rob a liquor store and the attendant has a heart attack and dies, it's felony murder. The court considers that result to be directly related to your criminal behavior, and assigns the blame to you, not the attendant that ate chilidogs at every meal.

The prisons are full of people who don't understand the law or think it's stupid. One does not have to appreciate the law to be subject to it.

You stand warned, you are a grown-ass man, do as you will.
 
bullwinkle said:
Because under the law, any result of a felony rest with the felon. If you rob a liquor store and the attendant has a heart attack and dies, it's felony murder. The court considers that result to be directly related to your criminal behavior, and assigns the blame to you, not the attendant that ate chilidogs at every meal.

The prisons are full of people who don't understand the law or think it's stupid. One does not have to appreciate the law to be subject to it.

You stand warned, you are a grown-ass man, do as you will.
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Sounds more like an excuse for cops to get away with being subpar at well - anything. If he can't keep the car between the lines, don't drive. If he can't keep the shots in the CoM, don't shoot.
 
EdFred said:
I did that once too, albeit not an interstate. I still got a ticket. Of course, they were also doing courthouse renovations, so there's no way I was getting a warning. I have a 100% success rate in not stopping, and a 20% success rate when stopping. For me, it pays not to stop.
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If you plan to go to court over the ticket, the prosecuting underling will typically talk to the officer before he talks to you (the officer will have to show up eventually if the ticket is going to be ajudicated) about a plea deal. If you're not at all memorable to the officer, or at least not remembered as being a PITA, it can influnce the amount of leniency offered to plead out.
 
DJTorrente said:
If you plan to go to court over the ticket, the prosecuting underling will typically talk to the officer before he talks to you (the officer will have to show up eventually if the ticket is going to be ajudicated) about a plea deal. If you're not at all memorable to the officer, or at least not remembered as being a PITA, it can influnce the amount of leniency offered to plead out.
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Both times I went to court, the cop flat out lied. So much for being held to telling the truth under oath. Judge/magistrate didn't care. The one I didn't bother with appealing again because it was in Detroit. The other one, I appealed a second time and the prosecutor dropped the case before we walked into the court room.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds more like an excuse for cops to get away with being subpar at well - anything. If he can't keep the car between the lines, don't drive. If he can't keep the shots in the CoM, don't shoot.
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:rolleyes:

Police are in the business of law enforcement, not race car driving. They generally get upset when people try to make them act as race car drivers.

I'm sure you are great at everything you do at all times, but most people are human. Not to mention you don't know when a car won't hear your siren and come barreling through an intersection. Or when a deer will dart in front of your patrol car. Not every accident is a direct result of poor driving. It is however a FACT that if you put people in danger through criminal acts, you are responsible for them being in the circumstances to get hurt or killed, and the court will hold you to that if it plays out.
 
bullwinkle said:
I'm sure you are great at everything you do at all times,
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Nope. And those things I don't bother doing. I know my limits, maybe others should learn theirs before putting people in danger, even if it is under the guise of "serving and protecting."
 
EdFred said:
Nope. And those things I don't bother doing. I know my limits, maybe others should learn theirs before putting people in danger, even if it is under the guise of "serving and protecting."
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Guy break law, runs from cops, and it's the cops putting people in danger by chasing him? :lol:

That's rich.


I am generally not very complimentary of the police culture in this country, but that's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard on these boards. And that is saying something.
 
bullwinkle said:
Guy break law, runs from cops, and it's the cops putting people in danger by chasing him? :lol:

That's rich.


I am generally not very complimentary of the police culture in this country, but that's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard on these boards. And that is saying something.
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No, I'm saying if the cop is a ****ty driver, maybe he shouldn't be rolling around in a 500HP hunk of metal, outdriving his talents. Granted most times it is the pursuee that screws up first because most of them are idiots. But once in a while you get one that knows what he's doing. In those cases, let it go. Chasing him ain't gonna get him to drive safer.
 
Brad Z said:
Ignore the resident, high post count trolls here.
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That's funny, considering I've attended more PoA fly-in's than anyone else on the board. Trolls don't come out from behind their keyboard, or let everyone know their real name. I don't recall meeting you at any of the fly-ins, but I haven't made them all. Maybe you need to re-assess your accusations, Mr. Z, which I'm sure is your real name considering the proliferation of single letter surnames in the US.
 
bullwinkle said:
Guy break law, runs from cops, and it's the cops putting people in danger by chasing him? :lol:

That's rich.


I am generally not very complimentary of the police culture in this country, but that's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard on these boards. And that is saying something.
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Actually it's not. Many departments around here have rules (that are enforced) about when they can and can't pursue. The rules say they can't pursue when they will put the public in danger. The rules are also strict about how a pursuit may be conducted. Many lawsuits have been pursued against LE & cities when those rules haven't been followed.

I understand that you are former LE. Perhaps you haven't kept up with the times.
 
Clark1961 said:
Actually it's not. Many departments around here have rules (that are enforced) about when they can and can't pursue. The rules say they can't pursue when they will put the public in danger. The rules are also strict about how a pursuit may be conducted. Many lawsuits have been pursued against LE & cities when those rules haven't been followed.

I understand that you are former LE. Perhaps you haven't kept up with the times.
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I understand all that. That doesn't mean that, if in a pursuit in accordance with their departmental regulations, it's somehow the police officer's fault if an accident results, at least from a criminal perspective. Officers enjoy limited sovereign immunity that protects them within the scope of their lawful duties. Criminality rests firmly on the head of the offender, including for results from their criminal acts that are not their direct acts. That's just the way the law works.

From a civil perspective, an officer can always be sued. Department pursuit guidelines exist entirely for civil reasons.
 
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bullwinkle said:
Until it doesn't. The one time you run and DO get caught, I guarantee you will wish you had stopped. You will go to jail, probably take a multi-officer beating, and probably have damage done to your vehicle as they jerk you out of it.
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Shoot, he may even get a short dash cam segment on one of the Wildest Police videos:eek:

EdFred said:
No, I'm saying if the cop is a ****ty driver, maybe he shouldn't be rolling around in a 500HP hunk of metal, outdriving his talents. But once in a while you get one that knows what he's doing. In those cases, let it go. Chasing him ain't gonna get him to drive safer.
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My BIL was a motorcycle officer and was injured when a non-pursued vehicle swerved first for the evading vehicle and second straight into my BIL attempting to yield for him. Car vs motorcycle isn't pretty. My BIL was attempting to pull him over for the elementary school zone he just blew through at 40 mph as school was letting out.

Based on your comments/personality, I'm glad I don't occupy airspace near you ....
 
bullwinkle said:
I understand all that. That doesn't mean that, if in a pursuit in accordance with their departmental regulations, it's somehow the police officer's fault if an accident results, at least from a criminal perspective. Officers enjoy limited sovereign immunity that protects them within the scope of their lawful duties. Criminality rests firmly on the head of the offender, including for results from their criminal acts that are not their direct acts. That's just the way the law works.

From a civil perspective, an officer can always be sued. Department pursuit guidelines exist entirely for civil reasons.
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Yes, it does mean that it is the officer's fault if they violate department regulations or the law or even common sense. Officers thought that it wasn't their fault and that is why the regulations and laws were written. Just because an alleged offender may also be culpable doesn't mean that an officer is excused from responsibility. Some departments and officers have learned this lesson the hard way around here. Other departments have developed effective training programs to mitigate the danger of pursuits. As always, YMWV by department and local laws in your area may be different than the laws around here. There have been some serious accidents and the courts have said that the LE folks are responsible for the accidents their drivers are involved in.

You're arguing that it's not the officer's fault if they don't break the law. I'm pointing out that if they have an accident during a pursuit then they broke the law which is intended to protect the public. In other words, it is the officer's fault and the results of many trials have said that.
 
danhagan said:
Shoot, he may even get a short dash cam segment on one of the Wildest Police videos:eek:



My BIL was a motorcycle officer and was injured when a non-pursued vehicle swerved first for the evading vehicle and second straight into my BIL attempting to yield for him. Car vs motorcycle isn't pretty. My BIL was attempting to pull him over for the elementary school zone he just blew through at 40 mph as school was letting out.

Based on your comments/personality, I'm glad I don't occupy airspace near you ....
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That has nothing to do with being an officer, or being in pursuit. It's also the reason my black and yellow (which I believe is the most visible contrasting color combo) has been sitting in the garage unridden for 6 years. I had three people almost take me out in a single day. One even made eye contact with me and then pulled out in front of me. I haven't ridden it since.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yes, it does mean that it is the officer's fault if they violate department regulations or the law or even common sense. Officers thought that it wasn't their fault and that is why the regulations and laws were written. Just because an alleged offender may also be culpable doesn't mean that an officer is excused from responsibility. Some departments and officers have learned this lesson the hard way around here. Other departments have developed effective training programs to mitigate the danger of pursuits. As always, YMWV by department and local laws in your area may be different than the laws around here. There have been some serious accidents and the courts have said that the LE folks are responsible for the accidents their drivers are involved in.

You're arguing that it's not the officer's fault if they don't break the law. I'm pointing out that if they have an accident during a pursuit then they broke the law which is intended to protect the public. In other words, it is the officer's fault and the results of many trials have said that.
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Departmental regulations are not law, they are exactly what they sound like. Officers CAN break the law to apprehend criminals, hence the limited sovereign immunity. You don't see police in pursuits stopping at stop signs much, and you don't see them later in traffic court as a result. I was specifically talking about CRIMINAL law, which is why I made the distinction.

If an officer is acting in good faith, he has wide latitude in the actions he can take. In fact, in order to affect an arrest, he can use ANY force he reasonably believes is necessary, up to deadly force, to apprehend the suspect, and he is legally allowed to do so. Yes, if you commit a minor traffic violation, and put up enough resistance to the arrest YOU CAN BE KILLED AND THE OFFICER MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN DOING SO.

"Fault" is a civil issue. That is where police have a lot of liability. If they are chasing somebody and run into a bus load of kids and kill them, they will most certainly be held liable for damages, even if they pretty much did everything right. But unless they did something unreasonable in the chase, they will NOT be going to jail.

The flip side of this is that if the arrest is false, meaning the officer KNOWS it is for a charge that is false, the "offender" becomes the victim, and he/she may resist that arrest with force up to and including deadly force. YOU CAN LEGALLY KILL A POLICE OFFICER THAT IS FALSELY ARRESTING YOU. But, the standard for that is very high and your chances of making that case successfully in court are slim.

This is why people are filming police a lot now and the police hate it. They have been getting away with abusing the wide latitude they have in discretion and procedure and are now getting caught. They will have to either start toeing the line with legality or getting more clever in their violations of it.
 
Unregistered said:
Yes my home airport is a towered airport. I was convinced they were going to chew me out so I delayed like an hour before I went back in trying to prepare myself for what I thought was going to be an ass chewing like none other. When nothing happened I thought maybe nobody noticed what I had done so I didn't really want to alert anyone by telling my CFI or anyone else. Nobody told me about this ASRS thing otherwise I would have done this. I didn't tell my CFI because I didn't want to get him into trouble for my stupid mistake. What he doesn't know will not hurt him.
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If one of my students violated any FAR under my CFI # I would be very upset and concerned. I'd be even MORE upset and concerned if my student decided not to disclose the deviation to me. Why does he/she not feel comfortable telling me about a deviation. There's no room for ridicule, and condemnation. I see it as an opportunity to mentor this young pilot about how risky our business is. Something that I'm curious about in your particular flight is, what compelled you to orbit in that area under a class B shelf? Is this something you planned on doing? Did you tell your instructor and he approved of it? An extraordinary amount of fatal airplane crashes are as a result of the pilot orbiting or "checking out" what's going on on the ground at a low altitude. Which is why we practice many of the maneuvers in the PTS for the PPL in the profiles that we do.

Tell your CFI if you haven't. He could be reading these forums just like other CFI's in these forums. The mindset that you "will get away with it" only goes so far in Aviation. I can take you to a number of cemeteries and show you friends of mine who have been buried with the same mindset. Good luck my young pilot friend.
 
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