Build XC time from the working non commercial crowd

Tantalum

Tantalum

Final Approach
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San_Diego_Pilot
I work a full time regular job and get to the airport to go flying when I can, when scheduling and time permits I make an effort to select a trip at least 50nm from home and generally run at gentle power settings (2300 RPM, or thereabouts) to build up that cross country time for the instrument ticket... which is my real goal as I only feel like like a "half pilot" since my flying is often limited by not being able to poke through the frequent marine layers here and I can't realistically plan longer XC flights with my family if I don't have a VFR guarantee

Anyway... for the people on here who don't fly commercially but earned their instrument ticket... what was your secret? Did you just slowly slog through the XC flights until you had at least 50 PIC XC hours, or did you plan a one or two long trips?

I'm almost thinking now that I should just take a few days off work, grab an instrument rated pilot buddy (to have as a safety pilot for hood time, and in case we get socked in somewhere), and just plan a long a** trip in a 172N from San Diego up towards the Bay Area and back. Need at least 19 more XC hours.

I also feel like a trip like that, while taking care of the hours in one fell swoop, would also give me more valuable experience than just shuttling back and forth from the same 3 airports 10 times. I have heard of more than a few pilots get their instrument tickets but not really feel "ready" to actually use their ratings for real IMC <- don't want that to be me

Thoughts?
 
Some apparently log most of their hours as cross country regardless of any real standard or metric. No reason you can't either. Also, all your log book hours count. Even the ones you logged during PPL training.
 
I was surprised when I read that. I've been a real stickler on the whole 50nm from A to B thing. Counting an 18nm hop as XC just doesn't feel right to me... there is an airport from my home field that just falls under the cutoff, but I am sure some students use that and fudge the numbers a little on their paper sectionals

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citizen5000 said:
Also, all your log book hours count.
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Correct, but they need to be PIC, right? I went back to my PPL days in my logbook and added in the pre-license but post PIC XC flights towards it
 
Tantalum said:
I was surprised when I read that. I've been a real stickler on the whole 50nm from A to B thing. Counting an 18nm hop as XC just doesn't feel right to me... there is an airport from my home field that just falls under the cutoff, but I am sure some students use that and fudge the numbers a little on their paper sectionals

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Theres a post somewhere around here about someone going for a checkride and the DPE called him on 49 mile flight. If you think it might be a problem, go to Brown and bounce once before going to French Valley and on the way back. You'll have 4 logbook entries. SEE SDM. SDM F70. F70 SDM. SDM SEE
 
I did most of my XC time during the actual instrument training.
 
genna said:
I did most of my XC time during the actual instrument training.
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What did that do for your costs thought? The instructor rates around here are pretty high, so if I can knock down most of the XC stuff on my own I would save a bit of dough in the process...
 
^^ Fly with a Safety pilot instead

Edit: to clear up some confusion
 
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genna said:
I did most of my XC time during the actual instrument training.
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^ This helps too. You don't have to have 50 hours to start, you need 50 hours to finish and take the checkride.

Plan your flights, pleasure and training to include an airport 50 nm from your starting point. You need to shoot approaches in the instrument training, make one of them 50+ nm from your home field and do a landing there. Same thing if you are practicing with a safety pilot, get a landing in 50+ nm from the home field.

Don't just luck into it, plan it. Make it happen.
 
shotgunning hours with a buddy
 
citizen5000 said:
Some apparently log most of their hours as cross country regardless of any real standard or metric. No reason you can't either. Also, all your log book hours count. Even the ones you logged during PPL training.
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You are completely missing the point. The OP wants the cross-country time for the instrument, which has to be over 50nm.
 
Don't worry about doing XC time before IR. If you are going somewhere sure it adds up. But it's an easy thing to rack up if you have an airport 50nm away with an approach.
 
genna said:
Safety pilot
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For XC? No bueno.

You can get PIC time that way rather easily IF you are authorized to act as PIC in that particular airplane. Check insurance and rental rules. Plus, it's legal to be safety pilot on any single engine land piston airplane under 12500 lb as long as you have a medical and valid certificate. It may not be legal for you to act as PIC if you aren't endorsed for HP, complex, tailwheel, pressurized, or whatever else might be necessary.

My answer was just to fly how I wanted to. I got a small amount of XC from CAP, but most of their flying is local.
 
MAKG1 said:
For XC? No bueno.

You can get PIC time that way rather easily IF you are authorized to act as PIC in that particular airplane. Check insurance and rental rules. Plus, it's legal to be safety pilot on any single engine land piston airplane under 12500 lb as long as you have a medical and valid certificate. It may not be legal for you to act as PIC if you aren't endorsed for HP, complex, tailwheel, pressurized, or whatever else might be necessary.

My answer was just to fly how I wanted to. I got a small amount of XC from CAP, but most of their flying is local.
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Not sure what you are talking about. Flying with a safety pilot. I'm hooded, we are going to 50 miles away. i'm PIC, i'm flying XC and i'm getting instrument time... all in one
 
FWIW: Before i started IR training, i had 12 hours of XC PIC and 52 of total PIC.
When I was done, 50/117

There were a few long distance flights in there, but most were done in IFR training
 
@Tantalum

For me I have a lot of airports around that qualify as XC from KSRQ: KAPF, KMKY and a bunch on the east coast.

When I was working on my instrument ticket I had my own plane so, availability of the aircraft wasn't a problem. Most were actually late night flights, which (because non-populated FL is basically a black hole at night) really helped me gain confidence in my instruments.

I'd do a flight from KSRQ to Marco island a couple nights, then switch it up. Went to gainsville once, naples, brooksville, etc.

Nothing too far away. By the time I left work and got to the airport it would be about 6 PM (ish). I would launch about 6:30 PM and by the time I got back it would be 9 PM ish or later if I went farther. I did a bunch of touch and gos and stop and gos at the airports to refresh night currency.

I think it only took me a month or so to get it all done.

I particularly liked Marco Island at night (KMKY) because there is NOTHING around it, no city lights, nothing. Just an airport in a pool of darkness. It made me very aware of altitudes and speed.
 
I buddied up but honestly, wracked up my last 20 hours of XC time in IR training. We have a couple airports from my flight school that are right at 50nm so I told my instructor let's get hood time and XC time. There's plenty of instruction that can take place when cruising on instruments. Honestly, doing it that way closer mimics RW flying. You can fly a departure and dial in center and then approach. You have plenty of time to properly brief the IAP and run all checklists.

It maybe cost a bit more but I feel like my training benefited because of it.
 
@Caramon13 thanks. I bet having your own plane helped and flying at night I'm sure was a big plus.. when I've done night flying I'm often surprised it is legal for non instrument folks, it really is closer to instrument flying than VFR flying in my experience.

Scheduling has been a challenge here... you need to book the planes a solid 1-2 weeks in advance. I have often though about getting my own plane for training... but I understand that selling a plane isn't always easy or fast. The kind of plane I could right now buy would be in the $50K range and not something I'd want for the long term... my "ideal" planes that I keep finding on line are closer to the $100K mark or thereabouts, and probably still a few years away from that unfortunately (depending on how responsible I want to be!)
 
labbadabba said:
It maybe cost a bit more but I feel like my training benefited because of it.
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Yeah.. this too. It costs more but doing that flying with an instructor I'm sure has much more value to it than just cruising along alone watching the Hobbs timer tick away
 
Thanks all for the thoughtful posts!
 
Tantalum said:
I'm almost thinking now that I should just take a few days off work, grab an instrument rated pilot buddy (to have as a safety pilot for hood time, and in case we get socked in somewhere), and just plan a long a** trip in a 172N from San Diego up towards the Bay Area and back. Need at least 19 more XC hours.

I also feel like a trip like that, while taking care of the hours in one fell swoop, would also give me more valuable experience than just shuttling back and forth from the same 3 airports 10 times.
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It sure will. Getting the 50 XC hours by flying back an forth to the same 2 or 3 airports 51nm away is basically a waste. Yes, it meets the requirements but you're shortchanging yourself in the experience department by not flying to new places and distant airports. You're paying for the plane for the XC hours, don't you want to get the most for your money? Go somewhere fun and do something.

That said, I might not suggest doing everything in one super long flight. There is value in multiple trips. It lets you have time to think about how the last trip went and apply what you learned to future trips.It's also more likely to expose you to different scenarios.
 
Tantalum said:
@Caramon13 thanks. I bet having your own plane helped and flying at night I'm sure was a big plus.. when I've done night flying I'm often surprised it is legal for non instrument folks, it really is closer to instrument flying than VFR flying in my experience.

Scheduling has been a challenge here... you need to book the planes a solid 1-2 weeks in advance. I have often though about getting my own plane for training... but I understand that selling a plane isn't always easy or fast. The kind of plane I could right now buy would be in the $50K range and not something I'd want for the long term... my "ideal" planes that I keep finding on line are closer to the $100K mark or thereabouts, and probably still a few years away from that unfortunately (depending on how responsible I want to be!)
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I bought my 1965 Cherokee 180 with an autopilot and minimal instrumentation for about 37K. Put a GPS in it and a bunch of other stuff and when I sold it, I just about broke even including the cost of the upgrades. It's not hard to sell a good plane, but if you get a beater then, well, good luck to you :).

Yeah I couldn't have done all that in a rental and it would have been stupid expensive where I live. Buying and selling a Cherokee was the best thing I could have done to get my rating.
 
Caramon13 said:
Buying and selling a Cherokee was the best thing I could have done to get my rating.
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My colleague at work basically had the same advice. She bought a dirt cheap 150 and used that through her ratings. Still has it actually (in addition to a nice Baron 55!)
 
Tantalum said:
My colleague at work basically had the same advice. She bought a dirt cheap 150 and used that through her ratings. Still has it actually (in addition to a nice Baron 55!)
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Nice! A few years from now when I can actually afford it, I'll be looking into a 150 probably or something basic to just fly around the area for $100 burgers..Rental prices are going to keep me grounded for quite a bit unfortunately.
 
Tantalum said:
Anyway... for the people on here who don't fly commercially but earned their instrument ticket... what was your secret? Did you just slowly slog through the XC flights until you had at least 50 PIC XC hours, or did you plan a one or two long trips?


Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Other than the basic attitude flying lessons and approach lessons, every single one of my IR training flights was a cross country. I flew to pretty much every airport that is > 51NM from MYF that has an instrument approach. Got to do a lot of real world flying in there. ILS to minimums at SNA, the VOR into SMO. Sure, it was more expensive, but got to work every single flight in the system. If you need a good CFII, i can recommend one
 
@sferguson524 thanks, I have a couple people in mind that I've flown with but if you want to PM some names I'll look them up
 
genna said:
Not sure what you are talking about. Flying with a safety pilot. I'm hooded, we are going to 50 miles away. i'm PIC, i'm flying XC and i'm getting instrument time... all in one
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You made the wrong recommendation, then.

WTH did you mean the OP should do when you posted "safety pilot?" A safety pilot is not needed to fly a 50 mile cross country as PIC.

Flying as safety pilot does not affect XC time. Only PIC, and even that is only under certain conditions.

Flying instrument time before instrument training is neutral at best, and probably counterproductive.
 
Tantalum said:
I'm almost thinking now that I should just take a few days off work, grab an instrument rated pilot buddy (to have as a safety pilot for hood time, and in case we get socked in somewhere), and just plan a long a** trip in a 172N from San Diego up towards the Bay Area and back. Need at least 19 more XC hours.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't need a safety pilot for this trip. IMC is usually easy to dodge, especially if the destination isn't set in stone. For instance, marine layer over the bay will be lessened at Livermore or Concord, and gone at Tracy or Stockton. Simulated instrument time is a waste of time for you, until you have some actual instrument training. And an instrument pilot hand flying in IMC from the right seat for the first time is not an acceptable risk.

If there is a forecast for widespread IMC, that's a no-go for a VFR pilot. Making that decision is part of your exercise.

What you can benefit from the most -- and why this requirement exists -- is dealing with weather and fuel planning. The flight I took from Long Beach to San Jose a few days ago would have been a good challenge -- the headwinds were NASTY (but quite smooth), and the fuel management was not at all trivial. Clouds could be dodged easily VFR as far as Salinas, and a few hours later, you could have gone anywhere VFR. I used 37 gal for that trip in a 50 gal 177RG (which normally cruises at 10 GPH -- and I insist on landing with 10 gal). It probably would have been in the low 30s in a 172N.
 
Tantalum said:
The kind of plane I could right now buy would be in the $50K range and not something I'd want for the long term...
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What's long term? You can buy/sell a 172 pretty easily. Renting sucks and blows.
 
I was so far beyond 50 hours right outta the gate cuz I used my plane to go travel places...VFR...also based in a marine layer prone coastal community. You are in San Diego...your options to go fly somewhere for fun for a day trip or overnight trip are endless.

If you are gonna burn avgas, go burn it going somewhere vs just poking holes in the sky for hours!
 
genna said:
I did most of my XC time during the actual instrument training.
Click to expand...

Tantalum said:
What did that do for your costs thought? The instructor rates around here are pretty high, so if I can knock down most of the XC stuff on my own I would save a bit of dough in the process...
Click to expand...

genna said:
Safety pilot
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MAKG1 said:
You made the wrong recommendation, then.

WTH did you mean the OP should do when you posted "safety pilot?" A safety pilot is not needed to fly a 50 mile cross country as PIC.

Flying as safety pilot does not affect XC time. Only PIC, and even that is only under certain conditions.

Flying instrument time before instrument training is neutral at best, and probably counterproductive.
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It was a response to what do you do for the cost of instructor... Use a safety pilot. Perhaps I was not very clear, but i think everyone but you understood. You need a safety pilot if you want to combine Hooded(instrument) time and XC time for the purpose of saving money

EDIT: some additions:
1. Not flying AS a safety pilot, flying WITH a safety pilot instead of instructor.
2. Who said anything about doing instrument time before instrument training? You do training(with instructor with XC) and then you do time(with safety pilot with XC).

Not a rocket science
 
I made a few 2-3 hr trips down to SoCal and back, but mostly I just flew an hour and back to Monterey every Sunday to go hiking with my buddy. Had my fifty in just a few months, and lost a few pounds in the process.
 
Tantalum said:
I also feel like a trip like that, while taking care of the hours in one fell swoop, would also give me more valuable experience than just shuttling back and forth from the same 3 airports 10 times. I have heard of more than a few pilots get their instrument tickets but not really feel "ready" to actually use their ratings for real IMC <- don't want that to be me
Click to expand...

When I reached my 50 hrs of XC, I did NOT feel ready for my IR. I kept flying for another year, racking up 100 XC hours, with ops at about 30 different airports, including one Bravo. (San Diego, three times) A lot of it was flying my daughter to San Diego, LA, and Arcata, to visit friends. That being said, once I started my IR, I realized I should have spent more time learning to fly 'precisely'. Since I hadn't, under the hood I was all over the place. Probably cost me an extra 10hrs of training to get proficient holding course, speed and altitude under the hood.
 
I work full time, have two little ones and very very very little free time. Weather here, especially in the winter, is always a challenge. Passed my checkride last June and have still somehow managed to log ~55 hours, 36 of which are xc. Just slowly chipping away at time building for the IR as I can. I'm not in a rush.

And I do not count the short hops as xc... only those more than 50 nm.

genna said:
Safety pilot
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You can not log xc as a safety pilot since the other pilot is not under the hood during takeoffs/landings. As such, you are not PIC during those times. You can only log time while the other pilot is under the hood. Otherwise, you're just a pax.

It's great for learning a bit about instrument flying and for building hours towards commercial rating, though.
 
genna said:
It was a response to what do you do for the cost of instructor... Use a safety pilot. Perhaps I was not very clear, but i think everyone but you understood. You need a safety pilot if you want to combine Hooded(instrument) time and XC time for the purpose of saving money

EDIT: some additions:
1. Not flying AS a safety pilot, flying WITH a safety pilot instead of instructor.
2. Who said anything about doing instrument time before instrument training? You do training(with instructor with XC) and then you do time(with safety pilot with XC).

Not a rocket science
Click to expand...

Apparently I misunderstood you as well. Yes, flying with a safety pilot would save money when the time comes.
 
genna said:
I did most of my XC time during the actual instrument training.
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Same here, yes the hours are a little more pricey, but I think it pays off. Had an airport 50 NM away that had GPS, VOR/DME, ILS/Localizer approaches. Lots go good training there, got the XC hours in, as well as time in the ATC system u see OFF, and managed to get several hours of actual INC. My 2 cents
 
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