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cheemsaf

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cheemsaf
With the following in mind.
I’m biting the bullet and starting my ADS-B upgrade…thank you Uncle Sam. I’m looking for recommendations based on experience and facts.

Current Setup: Standard 6-pack, dual non-WAAS 430s, PS Engineering audio panel, GTX330 (just upgraded to 330ES), TruTrak autopilot that doesn’t really work, portable Garmin696 for plates & XM weather, IFR certified (i.e. has applicable backup accouterments)

Assumptions: Experimental airplane, single pilot 99% of the time, fly in Class A regularly, hard IFR when I need to, plane is used mainly for cross-countries.

What I’m considering: 1) Staying all Garmin with a GDL-88, swapping one 430 for a 430W, perhaps a 650. 2) Some other brand (Avidyne?) but worried about the “Mac Effect” of future interoperability with some random software update that negates two different brands from reaching full potential.

What I’d like: some sort of MFD that overlays the WX and traffic from whatever ADS-B in box I go with on selectable moving nav maps. It’d be nice if the MFD and the GPS spoke to each other (e.g. what you program into the GPS translates directly to the MFD). And something that can do what the 696 does with approach plates.

$: I’d like to limit the dollars out of my checking account and into someone else’s, but want the SA at a single glance.

Any experiences out there with various setups that may be a good transition?
 
Why spend a lot of money on a GDL-88 when you can upgrade your 430's to WAAS? That will (with your already-installed GTX330ES) cover ADS-B-out as well as opening up a lot of added approach capability (LPV's, no need for non-GPS alternate, etc). That said, if you want to overlay weather on the 430's, you'll need something like the GDL-88 (although you'll still need a WAAS GPS), but you can put all the weather you want on an iPad by adding an $800 Stratus 2 -- which is a lot cheaper option. BTW, upgrading only one of your 430's shuts down your crossfill capability (an annoying situation which I've seen in one client's plane).
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, upgrading only one of your 430's shuts down your crossfill capability (an annoying situation which I've seen in one client's plane).
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Ron, what do you mean by "crossfill capability"?
 
cheemsaf said:
Ron, what do you mean by "crossfill capability"?
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Compatible dual Garmin units like 2x430, 430W/530W, 650/750 allow the flight plan and approach information you've loaded on one to be transferred to the other. That can save a lot of dialing and button punching. However, crossfill is inhibited with mismatched units, such as a 430W/430, or 530/650. See your 430 manual for details.
 
Well, I'm not going to be missing much then. All this time...:mad2: Never have I crossfilled. Anyways, thanks for that lesson as I'm now looking at upgrading to something else.

& to answer your why not only a WAAS GPS, I'm looking for the "in" portion as well. I'd like to have my cake and eat it too ;)
 
cheemsaf said:
Well, I'm not going to be missing much then. All this time...:mad2: Never have I crossfilled. Anyways, thanks for that lesson as I'm now looking at upgrading to something else.
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You probably aren't doing a lot of IFR flying on complex routes, right?
& to answer your why not only a WAAS GPS, I'm looking for the "in" portion as well. I'd like to have my cake and eat it too ;)
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You can get the "in" by adding a Stratus to feed your iPad. It won't show on your 430's, but it's a bigger and better screen than any light plane MFD I know other than the big glass panels.
 
You already have a sweet setup, just WAAS the current boxes you have, if ADSB info is that important to you get a stratus for your ipad and call it a day. Unless you're looking to spend money just for the sake of spending money.

If you're looking to get more into your panel or IFR flying, I'd invest in the autopilot and a HSI.
 
You could just swap out one of the 430s for a 650 rather than spending the money on a WAAS upgrade. You can still get pretty good money out of a working 430 even non-waas. The 650 is a very nice upgrade. Get the GDL88 if you want traffic/weather and aural alerts on the 650.
 
Staying with the Garmin family if you want a panel mounted IN solution go with the GLD-88 and swap out a 430 for a 650W or better.

If you want cheaper and simple, just upgrade your 430 to a W and use a Stratus and Ipad for your IN since your 330 is already ES. The 430 upgrade is $4k and you are done...or as mentioned sell a 430 and upgrade to a 650W.

The traffic picture is significantly better on the ipad and 650 than it is on a 430.

The Ipad is also a significantly better screen for an EFB for you plates.

As someone that does long XC trips several times a month I agree with James...keep it simple and put the money into getting a working autopilot.

I recently upgraded my 330 and I fly IFR with a 330ES, 430W, Stratus and Ipad and love it. Anything more and I would have been just spending money to spend money.
 
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Thanks for the 2nd set of eyes in my decision making everyone.

To answer some of your questions:

Complex routes? Just STARs/SIDs when in bigger cities, otherwise direct. But from time to time, I get weird clearances.

I'm not an i-anything guy. I'm an android & microsoft guy. Do I dare take the plunge? Has anyone heard if the 696 can display traffic off the 88? Does such a connectivity even exist? I'd assume not. I've read it can off the 39, but I fly above 180. Anyone try a GDL39 above 180 before with another "compliant out" already on the plane? I'm not sure if Garmin really thought that one through. Or they thought 2-moves ahead to empty your pockets a lil'bit more...;)

I have an BendixKing EHSI slaved to the #1 430. & a Garmin 106 slaved to the #2 430.

I'll look into the Stratus iPad combo as it seems a lot of people use that.
 
Shawn, so I just watched about an hour and a half long recorded webinar on Foreflight and ipad integration. I did some research on the pricing and have come to the conclusion that upgrading to a 430W w/ my 330ES along with a stratus 2 and an ipad is not only more economical, but more SA building.

What am I missing here...Tell me if this right or not. For me get the appropriate charts/maps/etc on my 696 for the entire US, it's $499.99 to bundle everything together (according to garmin's website), then I need to continually update the 696 for appropriate plates/charts/etc, plus the $34/mo XM WX subscription. Foreflight is $174.99 for essentially the same thing for the entire year. Plus the $900 stratus plus the $500 ipad. So that will give me full traffic & WX when I'm ADS-B compliant out with a moving map display better than the 430W could ever display. Essentially saving me the difference in the cost of a GDL-88 vs the stratus/ipad combo. That's about $2900 difference into my pocket including chart update costs. Am I missing something here?
 
James331 said:
You already have a sweet setup, just WAAS the current boxes you have, if ADSB info is that important to you get a stratus for your ipad and call it a day. Unless you're looking to spend money just for the sake of spending money.

If you're looking to get more into your panel or IFR flying, I'd invest in the autopilot and a HSI.
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+ 1 you have the major portion In your panel,just upgrade it put in an stec 30 with alt hold. Makes your IFR flying much easier. Can't beat the iPad with stratus.
 
frfly172 said:
just upgrade it put in an stec 30 with alt hold. Makes your IFR flying much easier. Can't beat the iPad with stratus.
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S-TEC 30 is exactly what I also have and makes IFR flying much more relaxing! Knowing what I know now, a having a good AP is on the TOP of my priority list over any avionics for longer XC flying.

cheemsaf said:
Am I missing something here?
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I would say you are on the right track if I am following your math correctly. Have you factored in the W upgrade on the 430?...which you would need in either scenario. You need the W to be ADSB out and without the out there is no in.

There are two schools of thought...first being a fully integrated panel mounted certified solution with the GLD-88. Gives you ADSB out AND in on your panel avionics. James is a big fan of that set up and if you were starting from scratch, I would also agree but you are far from starting from scratch.

The second school of thought is the Ipad/Stratus combo for your IN capabilities. Argument against those is that you are relying on a consumer grade device (the Ipad and Stratus) for your ADSB In capabilities...not a "certified" device but offers an incredible higher amount of situational awareness information along with it.

Ipad flying is whole 'nother argument...but the Ipad/Foreflight combo offers SO much more to flying than just being your traffic and weather device. With any EFB and consumer device, you have to remember that is is just an AID to situational awareness and easy access to a LOT of information...if you start to rely on it and you NEED it to fly...that will be your downfall when something craps out or a battery dies. I think of it as a redundancy to my 430, not a primary flight instrument.

First time I used the Foreflight/Stratus combo I flew from Florida to California and became an instant advocate. Having all of the resources/weather/airport/fuel information at my fingertip easily shaved a lot of time off our trip. We did our preflight planning for each and every leg but I can say we rarely landed at where we had planned to the the real time flexibility the system offered us. I am a fan.

Charts alone are the worth the price of admission.
 
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cheemsaf said:
What am I missing here...Tell me if this right or not. For me get the appropriate charts/maps/etc on my 696 for the entire US, it's $499.99 to bundle everything together (according to garmin's website), then I need to continually update the 696 for appropriate plates/charts/etc, plus the $34/mo XM WX subscription. Foreflight is $174.99 for essentially the same thing for the entire year. Plus the $900 stratus plus the $500 ipad. So that will give me full traffic & WX when I'm ADS-B compliant out with a moving map display better than the 430W could ever display. Essentially saving me the difference in the cost of a GDL-88 vs the stratus/ipad combo. That's about $2900 difference into my pocket including chart update costs. Am I missing something here?
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You aren't missing anything. With the GTX330 already upgraded to ES, all you need to be ADS-B-out is to upgrade at least one of your 430's to WAAS, and you're going to love the extra flexibility of a WAAS GPS. Only question then is whether you want to spend another $4K to upgrade the second 430 so they can still talk to each other.
 
Ron Levy said:
You aren't missing anything. With the GTX330 already upgraded to ES, all you need to be ADS-B-out is to upgrade at least one of your 430's to WAAS, and you're going to love the extra flexibility of a WAAS GPS. Only question then is whether you want to spend another $4K to upgrade the second 430 so they can still talk to each other.
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No need to do it all at once, just WAAS one and go from there, not like garmin gives you a discount if you do two at once.

Only major drawback (minus cross fill and LPV redundancy) is you won't be able to use one update on both boxes anymore.
 
James331 said:
No need to do it all at once, just WAAS one and go from there, not like garmin gives you a discount if you do two at once.

Only major drawback (minus cross fill and LPV redundancy) is you won't be able to use one update on both boxes anymore.
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You can't use one update on both now without losing something -- not for either original or WAAS versions. Yes, if they're both the same, you can have two cards and leave one expired and the other current, but that will also disable crosssfill just like having one WAAS and one non-WAAS.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can't use one update on both now without losing something -- not for either original or WAAS versions. Yes, if they're both the same, you can have two cards and leave one expired and the other current, but that will also disable crosssfill just like having one WAAS and one non-WAAS.
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Ok ;)

It doesn't take someone much smarter than the average bear to figure out how to use one update on two cards.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can't use one update on both now without losing something -- not for either original or WAAS versions. Yes, if they're both the same, you can have two cards and leave one expired and the other current, but that will also disable crosssfill just like having one WAAS and one non-WAAS.
Click to expand...


Does the Garmin PilotPak work on the 430s? On the GTN series, you can update all units for the same price as a single unit.

https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/pilotpak/



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Thanks fellas. I am going to just update to the W on one for now, then do the stratus/ipad for the 'in'. As you guys saw, I really don't crossfill anyway ;) Shawn the cost already assumed I was spending on an W upgrade regardless to get the 'out' compliance.
 
One more question for you ipad/stratus gurus out there. How does the status2 know you are ADS-B out compliant? I read that it uses your ADS-B out and then when the ground stations replies to you, the stratus2 picks up on it. I'm just curious how the Stratus2 knows to use the reply back to your specific aircraft since it is a consumer grade and isn't tied directly into your transponder.
 
James331 said:
Ok ;)

It doesn't take someone much smarter than the average bear to figure out how to use one update on two cards.
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But it does take someone with dishonest intent to do it, as that is strictly forbidden by your contract with the database provider. Personally, I prefer to avoid thievery, but YMMV. Also, it won't help the OP, as he plans to keep the second GPS non-WAAS, which means a different database.
 
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Ron Levy said:
But it does take someone with dishonest intent to do it, as that is strictly forbidden by your contract with the database provider. Personally, I prefer to avoid thievery, but YMMV. Also, it won't help the OP, as he plans to keep the second GPS non-WAAS, which means a different database.
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No, I'm honest in that I don't feel like paying Jepp that much for regurgitated gov data, besides I paid for the data and the reader, what I do with that data is my business.
 
cheemsaf said:
One more question for you ipad/stratus gurus out there. How does the status2 know you are ADS-B out compliant? I read that it uses your ADS-B out and then when the ground stations replies to you, the stratus2 picks up on it. I'm just curious how the Stratus2 knows to use the reply back to your specific aircraft since it is a consumer grade and isn't tied directly into your transponder.
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The Stratus2 does not *know* that you're ADS-B out, nor does it need to. All it does is pickup the signal (TIS-B, traffic) that your ADS-B out solution is making the nearby towers generate when you fly by them. Just like you can pickup traffic if you happen to be flying in the same "hockey puck" of airspace as another plane with ADS-B out. The replies are not aircraft specific.

Hope that made sense.
 
cheemsaf said:
How does the status2 know you are ADS-B out compliant?
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ADS-B out or not, you will have full functionality of all the features the Stratus has to offer with the exception of traffic. As LuisO mentioned, your ADS-B out signal....or ANY ADS-B out signal will trigger a traffic packet to be sent back out by the ground station. Anyone with ADS-B in capabilities will be able to see that packet of information. Stratus does not know that you are ADS-B out, it only knows that the ground station has been pinged and a traffic packet of information is being sent out. It is simply a receiver.

By you generating that ping, the traffic picture will be essentially generated for your aircraft. If you are not ADS-B out and pick up traffic information being generated by another ADS-B aircraft they say that information is not a complete and reliable picture for you as you could be on the edge of that "hockey puck" of information and only seeing a partial picture relative to your position.
 
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Shawn said:
If you are not ADS-B out and pick up traffic information being generated by another ADS-B aircraft they say that information is not a complete and reliable picture for you as you could be on the edge of that "hockey puck" of information and only seeing a partial picture relative to your position.
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Thanks Shawn! That makes more sense to me than some of the stuff I've read on it.

On the weather aspect. You indirectly mentioned it's essentially full up. I'm assuming the ground towers are always zapping out the weather information so there is no area that is shown that maybe considered hi-def vs low-def for in only on a non-compliant out. Reason I'm asking is if I upgrade to the stratus2/ipad combo prior to upgrading to being out compliant, the weather that is being sent isn't specifically for someone else who is out compliant?

In other words, another hockey puck-ish area that's much larger, but just for the other guy who's out compliant I happen to be near.
 
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Weather info is always broadcast out to all to receive regardless of ADS-B out. To get the traffic, you need to be ADS-B out. It was the FAA's convoluted way to encourage pilots to upgrade to ADS-B out...otherwise there would be no incentive other than just the pending regulation.

Traffic picture is all that you miss out on not being ADS-B out with the Foreflight/Stratus combo. Everything else comes fully functional for everyone with the hardware purchase and Foreflight subscription.
 
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Can you still upgrade a non-WAAS 430 to WAAS?

I thought I heard recently that Garmin was going to make that impossible.....basically trying to force folks to turn in their 430/530s for new GTNs.

Please correct me if I've got that wrong since I'm going to be going down the WAAS road soon with the Baron.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Can you still upgrade a non-WAAS 430 to WAAS?

I thought I heard recently that Garmin was going to make that impossible.....basically trying to force folks to turn in their 430/530s for new GTNs.

Please correct me if I've got that wrong since I'm going to be going down the WAAS road soon with the Baron.
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Garmin is still advertising it on their website, although the price seems to have gone up another $400.
 
To the OP - just curious, what type of plane is this?
 
I would love one of those. Unfortunately, the safety issues scare me a bit....
 
dans2992 said:
I would love one of those. Unfortunately, the safety issues scare me a bit....
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Yup, if you're unsafe &/or don't maintain properly it'll kill you just like any other plane will. I would call it 'unforgiving'.
 
cheemsaf said:
Yup, if you're unsafe &/or don't maintain properly it'll kill you just like any other plane will. I would call it 'unforgiving'.
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Do you think the high rate of engine failure is due to poor maintenance?

What types of aircraft have you flown in the past? How did you train, and what's your strategy for staying sharp?

I'm not asking to pick a fight, I'm asking because I'm interested in the type, and I do not come from a jet or military background.
 
Put 0ne 430 up for grabs then get a 650 use your 330es to be in compliance with 2020 mandate and add flight stream. You won't need the gdl for the mandate the 330es is approved up to class A. Planing on the iPad Garmin pilot app and slapping it wireless to the 650/750 is priceless.
 
dans2992 said:
Do you think the high rate of engine failure is due to poor maintenance?

What types of aircraft have you flown in the past? How did you train, and what's your strategy for staying sharp?

I'm not asking to pick a fight, I'm asking because I'm interested in the type, and I do not come from a jet or military background.
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You just spoiled because you flight a Comanche :yes:
 
First post said he flew an experimental in class a airspace. If I read it correctly
 
tmyers said:
First post said he flew an experimental in class a airspace. If I read it correctly
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U are correct he say that :yes:
I guess the class A approved mention is not right they are approve to flight over 18k ft, if you are out of USA yo won't be in Class A
The 330 sends altitude, flight direction, speed, and rate of climb descent. Pretty good units. I dint get the gdl, but I got wired and the tray is ready if I change my mind . So far the IPad and stratus 2 work great plus the 650 with out the gdl stills gets marginal traffic information. Screen gets really busy tough with traffic.
 
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