BS in Aerospace Engineering - Now wants to be an A&P

KeithASanford

KeithASanford

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MyTurnToFly
A friend of mine's kid has a Bachelor of Science in Aerospace Engineering from Virginia Tech. He's got a pretty good job by his dad's estimation but he's bored out of his mind. The kid recently visited the Aviation Institute of Maintenance in Manassas. He saw the current class building a Nieuport 24 and now he wants to drop $40k to get his A&P. His dad, who paid for his Bachelor's, doesn't want him to go deep into debt because he's researched and found that A&Ps average about $50k/year starting salary, about $40k less than the kid's making right now, so he's attempting to talk him out of it. I told his dad that now is the best time for the kid to change careers because he's not in love or married and has no one to support. Even still, I suggested that he advise his son to keep his boring job and maybe join an active EAA chapter to make absolutely sure that's what he wants to do.

What would you advise his kid to do?
 
He finds AE boring, so he wants to go into wrenching?

He'll find that boring, too. One oil change is just like the next.

I'd advise the kid to figure out what he really likes to do and perhaps to lay off the weed a bit.
 
First, doubt a non IA, greenhorn A&P makes 50k a year.

Second he SHOULD DO IT, do what makes you happy in life, he makes a little less, can easily work for himself if he wants, there is more to life than a paycheck. Often people don't realize this until it too late in life.

Third, that's one EXPENSIVE A&P course!!!!

I've seen them in CC for half of that, or better yet go the apprentice route---> save money and feel it out before he's all in.
 
Keep day job, get MS degree, get A&P on the side before starting a family.
 
James331 said:
First, doubt a non IA, greenhorn A&P makes 50k a year.

Second he SHOULD DO IT, do what makes you happy in life, he makes a little less, can easily work for himself if he wants, there is more to life than a paycheck. Often people don't realize this until it too late in life.

Third, that's one EXPENSIVE A&P course!!!!

I've seen them in CC for half of that, or better yet go the apprentice route.
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I just read this in a trade magazine:
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the ones you did do".
 
JOhnH said:
I just read this in a trade magazine:
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the ones you did do".
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Easy to say. Harder to know the consequences of the things you didn't do.
 
The things you didn't do, that's true across the board in life.

If he's a near six figure worth of engneer, he'll always be able to pick that back up.

He's young, explore life and the facits that intrigue you.

On a side note, as antadocial as it may be, some of the most miserable people I've come acros have been engineers and IT people :dunno:

Seems like some folks here are actually almost offended that he doesn't want to stick with a engneering job.
 
Community college here has a 2 year A&P program. I haven't figured it all out yet but I think you could get it done for approximately $10k at the community college. I kind of thinking a side job for myself even though I don't need the money.
 
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An Aerospace Engineer with an IA cert would be a pretty darn good DER. He should see if he can do both.
 
KeithASanford said:
A friend of mine's kid has a Bachelor of Science in Aerospace Engineering from Virginia Tech. He's got a pretty good job by his dad's estimation but he's bored out of his mind. The kid recently visited the Aviation Institute of Maintenance in Manassas. He saw the current class building a Nieuport 24 and now he wants to drop $40k to get his A&P. His dad, who paid for his Bachelor's, doesn't want him to go deep into debt because he's researched and found that A&Ps average about $50k/year starting salary, about $40k less than the kid's making right now, so he's attempting to talk him out of it. I told his dad that now is the best time for the kid to change careers because he's not in love or married and has no one to support. Even still, I suggested that he advise his son to keep his boring job and maybe join an active EAA chapter to make absolutely sure that's what he wants to do.

What would you advise his kid to do?
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Spoiled brat....

The kid needs a big kick in the ass....And go hungry for a few months too..
 
In college I ditched a boring summer job to work landscaping for less $

It was nice. I got a good tan, packed on a few lbs of muscle and that was a hit with the ladies. Fast forward 8 years and they all want guys with well paying desk jobs.

Guess what I do now...
 
GeorgeC said:
Keep day job, get MS degree, get A&P on the side before starting a family.
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been there done that....have the BSAE, MS, A&P/IA.....get the MS....and do the A&P on the side.

After that....find a job that he enjoys that'll allow him to pursue aviation as a hobby.....he'll never make a fortune in aviation.
 
dell30rb said:
In college I ditched a boring summer job to work landscaping for less $

It was nice. I got a good tan, packed on a few lbs of muscle and that was a hit with the ladies. Fast forward 8 years and they all want guys with well paying desk jobs.

Guess what I do now...
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Still working landscaping and looking for a gal with a "desk job" :dunno:.....:D
 
I'm a BSAE working in the industry as well looking to earn my A&P, but not through the formal schooling. It is way too time consuming and expensive, and would likely bore any engineer with mechanical aptitude to death in class. I've been working under supervision to maintain/upgrade/overhaul etc. my own plane, and plan to apply for permission to take the test at some point in the next year.

I'd recommend he consider doing something like that while continuing to gain experience as an engineer. If he's bored now, he needs a different job or more responsibility. He needs to decide if he's happy using his hands much more than his mind, or vice-versa. I think most engineers would get bored very quickly doing routine maintenance in a shop. I speculate that building a kit or working on a restoration project would be much more fun and educational than taking formal A&P classes. All of this experience can be parlayed into a DER ticket down the road as well, which offers a lot more possibilities, and flexibility, in addition to better pay rates.
 
dell30rb said:
In college I ditched a boring summer job to work landscaping for less $

It was nice. I got a good tan, packed on a few lbs of muscle and that was a hit with the ladies. Fast forward 8 years and they all want guys with well paying desk jobs.

Guess what I do now...
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I hope you trade them in before they hit 30, ask to get married, or their looks remotely fade.

That's the way I look at it, if a girl wants a guy with money, she's got to understand that if she wants a relationship on a $ basis, she's a depreciating asset, her looks diminish with time, where as my portfolio will increase with time.

Better off to leave the gold diggers for the rich suckers, and spend the time to find a solid girl.
 
Well, with an A&P and AE, he's on track to be a DER. Nothing wrong with turning wrenches, in fact it's critical to the process of becoming a good engineer. Not only does it expose you to the variety of the ways things have been done, it exposes one to what doesn't work well.

It could be a waste, it could be parlayed into an interesting, enjoyable career. It just depends on what he makes of it.

Personally though I would suggest he try to find a shop to work at and go that route rather than the school route. That way he's making a living rather than accumulating more debt.
 
you guys do know that DERs are not mechanics.....? :D

now...DARs, maybe.
 
Tell him to go for it. His dad will pay.
 
Henning said:
Designated Engineering Representative. They design repairs, it's a good thing when they know how to do them.
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yup....and I work with a bunch of them....they ain't mechanics....they "approve data". :D:goofy:
 
Tell him to apply to SpaceX. If he likes working with his hands spend $2k on a National Instruments Labview cert and apply at SpaceX McGregor.

Airplanes are so 20th century, rockets to Mars are where all the cool kids are! Really!
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
yup....and I work with a bunch of them....they ain't mechanics....they "approve data". :D:goofy:
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One of my good friends is an MSAE, DER, AND an A&P/IA as well as ATP pilot (along with balloons, sailplanes, seaplanes, etc.). He is a real ratings collector while being able to turn a wrench and approve FAA data in his day job or on the side. There are a few out there...
 
Henning said:
They make money with an AE degree.
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true....but, it takes more than a few years to gain the needed experience and trust from an FAA sponsor.

from the DER HNDBK 8110.37
d. DER Candidate. If an applicant meets all the requirements for a DER designation but lacks significant experience in a direct working relationship with the FAA, the ACO may identify the applicant as a DER candidate. Candidates don’t have the authority to approve or recommend approval of data on FAA Form 8110-3, but must review and submit data to the FAA to prove their ability to function as a DER. After demonstrating this capability, a DER candidate will be delegated authority as a DER providing the ACO has a need for the DER and the ACO has the ability to manage the DER .
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I can empathize. I was that kid 10 years ago. Facing unemployment and yet fully paralyzed by the idea I wouldn't survive two weeks of the soul-crushing tedious drudgery that aerospace engineering work felt to me. Looking at entry-level CFI jobs as I was getting ready to receive my MSAE from Purdue about made my parents deny my existence lol.

The most disingenuous thing I've ever done in my life was pursue aerospace engineering degrees under the guise of "backup value". What's the backup value of something you can't stand to do? Of course, the two things in life I can actually tolerate to do for a living on a long-term basis (fly or teach), both pay squat in the aggregate, even worse when combined! What's a guy to do?

I really don't know the answer. I ended up snagging myself a military pilot job, so I never looked back. They pay me better than a median aero engineer to zoom around in a T-38 all day and it also allows me to jump over to a living wage airline gig without having to endure a regional job. A job which had I not had access to military aviation in the first place, I would have been just as reluctant to pursue for a decade like the poor bastards of the 2000-2010 period.

All the exits have always pointed to "do something you hate for good money" but to be completely frank, I've never found it a durable life choice if I'm being honest with myself.

Good luck to the guy. May he find a place in life he can tolerate where he can also prosper economically. I hate that these qualifiers have to be so mutually exclusive so often. One life to live though. A guy who genuinely enjoys the drudgery of engineering or IT is in a good place economically these days. Not everybody has that sensibility though. I can tell you it would take north of 150K and the TIME OFF to spend it on things I enjoy, for me to love a job I hate. Engineering never came close to those qualifiers, so I punted.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
true....but, it takes more than a few years to gain the needed experience and trust from an FAA sponsor.

from the DER HNDBK 8110.37
Click to expand...

That's where going through the A&P-IA process working at a shop comes in, you gain the experience and develop the relationship with the FAA. It makes it a time efficient process especially since he has the degree. I didn't say it would be over night, but as a 7-10 year plan, it works.
 
Henning said:
That's where going through the A&P-IA process working at a shop comes in, you gain the experience and develop the relationship with the FAA. It makes it a time efficient process especially since he has the degree. I didn't say it would be over night, but as a 7-10 year plan, it works.
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but....it's the wrong FAA....FSDOs don't do DERs.....ACO's do and that experience is going to come from either an aero manufacturing background or a design center.....not turning a wrench.

Turning a wrench is good....it just won't lead to a DER position.:no:

Rotor&Wing can tell ya more bout the FSDO wizardtry. :D
 
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I say go for it! After 2 years as an A&P I wanted to go get a BS in Aeronautical Engineering and before that the airlines. I really can't say why I didn't do it, probably just lazy.

All I can say is I'm glad I never did. With a lot of luck and a huge amount of work being a lowly A&P IA I got so much further than anything I was ever thinking about doing. So much further!
 
kmead said:
I say go for it! After 2 years as an A&P I wanted to go get a BS in Aeronautical Engineering and before that the airlines. I really can't say why I didn't do it, probably just lazy.

All I can say is I'm glad I never did. With a lot of luck and a huge amount of work being a lowly A&P IA I got so much further than anything I was ever thinking about doing. So much further!
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Same here....

All during school it was pounded into our heads that you will NEVER get ahead without a degree / college/ continuing education.... It is like a self feeding monster to get your tuition money with the pipe dream of getting rich, or at least richer then all your neighbors.

I took the hard work / do your best / invest wisely route.. I have had several different occupations over the last 45 years,,and in every one I did my best. worked my ass off and enjoyed every minute of each job position...

Here I am,dumber then a fence post, ready to retire and before the economy downturn, with close to 8 figures in assets..... WAY more then any of my "degreed" friends ever amassed..... I will never live long enough to spend it all either..:redface::redface:....:rolleyes:..

To the OP.. Tell your friend.......... Find a job he/she LOVES and run with it because if you like what you do, it is NOT a job, it is a pleasure, and life like that is ALOT nicer... IMHO....
 
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I wanted to be a Geologist at 12, then an AE or Blackhawk pilot at 17. Joined the Army to be a 60 crewchief to learn the bird, applied and was accepted to Ft. Rucker. Declined, got my A&P, got a welding certificate, did my 5 yrs and got out. Overhauled jet engines for 4 yrs(monotonous!!)and went to 2 yrs HVAC school on the GI Bill at night. 17 yrs later in HVAC, have owned my own business 14 yrs, built a house, family, garage, shop and plane. Love what I do most days. Money is not great. Enjoy the free time with my family, flying when we can afford it, reading, working with my 10 honeybee hives(increasing yearly) and 2 acres of gardens. Could I have made more money as an AE or Heli pilot? You bet. Would I be as happy? I doubt it. Married to a wonderful wife/elem teacher for 25 years. I could never teach kids!! I would say happiness for me comes from my varied daily jobs, hobbies, time off when I need it, wife, two very smart children(not my smarts) and the ability to fly our garage-built plane around the country. As I grow older those once dreamed about six-figure incomes/high tax rates do not seem as appealing. I wish him good luck in his decisions.
 
Harvard's prez pushing the drivel http://www.harvard.edu/president/speech/2014/case-for-college
The one thing they never point out is all the lifetime earning surveys are always 50 years out of date...
N801BH said:
Same here....

All during school it was pounded into our heads that you will NEVER get ahead without a degree / college/ continuing education.... It is like a self feeding monster to get your tuition money with the pipe dream of getting rich, or at least richer then all your neighbors.

I took the hard work / do your best / invest wisely route.. I have had several different occupations over the last 45 years,,and in every one I did my best. worked my ass off and enjoyed every minute of each job position...

Here I am,dumber then a fence post, ready to retire and before the economy downturn was close to 8 figures in assets..... WAY more then any of my "degreed" friends ever amassed..... I will never live long enough to spend it all either..:redface::redface:....:rolleyes:..

To the OP.. Tell your friend.......... Find a job he/she LOVES and run with it because if you like what you do, it is NOT a job, it is a pleasure, and life like that is ALOT nicer... IMHO....
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kmead said:
With a lot of luck and a huge amount of work being a lowly A&P IA I got so much further than anything I was ever thinking about doing. So much further!
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Nicely done :yes:
There's a lot to be said for drive and motivation in any field and loving what you do is important. The OP didn't say how long the guy has been working after his degree. It's not unusual to (a) have a slow 'startup' period straight out of school while you learn how to be a practicing engineer. Some places are slower than others, but it may be just a slow start, or (b) change jobs early on. I lasted 9 months before leaving my first mind-numbing engineering position and moving into one that was beyond my wildest expectations. I would never have gotten #2 without having #1 to open doors for me. #2 opened doors to #3 which is again exceeding my expectations. I satisfied my wrenching urges by building an RV-4 and a lot of other stuff. A LOT of other stuff.

OTOH, it's not for everyone. A young co-worker just left a well-paid engineering position for a service industry position and to basically live in the wilderness (details intentionally vague). It was the right thing for them and they're very happy, so more power to them. It's not a far cry from dropping engineering for wrenching - if it makes you happy, go for it.

OTOOH be sure it's what you want, not on a whim if you're going to chuck your day job and go back to school full-time. In spite of what some have suggested entry level AE positions can be pretty competitive so it may be difficult to return with lapsed skills. Coming back as an A&P/IA may fit some places very well and improve your chances but it's not a plus for every AE field.

Nauga,
ranging far and wide
 
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Junior college. Mine cost 7k including a second associates in avionics. And a much better education too.
 
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