Brief for the approach? Flows?

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sacbluesman

Pre-takeoff checklist
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sacbluesman
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for my IR but there a couple things that I'm getting caught up on that is making me fall behind the plane.

My instructor is getting on me to brief the approach. I'm having somewhat of a hard time determining the best time go over it. I guess it could be different if your doing pilot own nav or vectored approach :dunno: When do you guys complete this? Couple miles from the IAF? On the downwind leg of a vectored approach? This is one thing that isn't sinking in for me.

Here is another issue I'm facing. Between taxiing out and finishing the runup, I will get navs/comms all setup. I get the Garmin loaded up for the destination and load up the approach to be done. All is smooth with no rush and no stress. Takeoff, tower hands me off, contact approach controller...no big deal. Enroute, I get established and complete the approach we usually go missed and go elsewhere. At this point, I fall behind. Point A to B goes fairly well but having to setup for the next approach and airport is overloading me. I'm trying to rush and figure out what to do next and my brain just isn't keeping up. Keep in mind where I'm training we have several airports in a very close area so setup time has to be done relatively quickly...at least in the eyes of a rookie :)

I don't know if all this makes sense. I'm just looking for advice or get examples of the flows ya'll are using and when (distance/position) exactly you start doing these. Maybe I just need to chill out and not rush. I suppose slowing down and thinking things out could be faster in the end.

Thanks
 
I just got my IFR recently, and probably am not the best to give advice, but as is my nature I will try. These boards are the only place I learn what I truly know and what I believe is to be so. I am more often shot down than not.

Anyhow here it goes.

First and most important. DO NOT RUSH, or feel you need to rush. You will only make mistakes and fall farther behind. Remember the most important thing is to aviate. Fly the plane.

2. More often than not you know what is happening next. Prior to ever getting into the plane, I tried to imagine what the flight would entail and how would it progress. This is where I think paper charts excel. I would put my paper approaches in this order so I would not have to use time to look for them. I also kept the other possible approaches behind this. I used the Yoke clip to store everything. Thus when I finished an approach all I needed to do was pull that out and the next phase was there. I utilized the flight planning part of my G1000 to store waypoints, etc. Usually, this got changed, and being familiar with how to do changes was real useful. I spent a lot of time playing with the G1000 both in computer simulation and in VFR flying often doing simulated approaches to nontowered airports(announcing it) to know how the G1000 would react. I would also during these solo practice sessions change my route to simulate ATC changes. When I did my IFR training the airport I did most of my approaches was less than 10 minutes from my home airport if flown direct, which rarely happened as I had to get on the approach. I utilized this time to refresh in my memory what I needed to do next. Therefore, when it was time to change frequencies or routes I knew exactly what I had to do and did not think about it. My instructor as was my DPE are talkers, and I would often enforce sterile cockpit rules until I was ready to listen to them blab about some non flying thing. In true life IFR I am very much a dictator, and limit extraneous conversation as much as possible.
3. Do not get flustered. Take your time, and remember it's not how fast you do it, but how efficient you are. Efficiency will make sure you do it right and quickly enough to be proficient.
4. Practice, practice, practice.
5. Oh yeah, and most importantly, been there, done that, and still do it. For me that's what learning is all about.

Good luck

Doug.
 
I always want my approach briefed and everything set up prior to the IAF. Then I'll generally re-brief the missed just before the FAF. If I'm on a cross-country, I'll usually review it a few times during cruise, so it's set up as soon as possible.

I know how you feel with the close airports; It can get crazy. Luckily, real-world flying is generally not that quick, and you'll have much more time during cruise. If you need more time on a vectored approach, just ask! Remember, ATC can't make you do anything you as PIC don't feel comfortable doing. We're their customers, and they're there to assist and help us complete our mission how we feel best/safest. Being vectored a few more miles downwind can really help take the pressure off. Another option is to throttle back a bit. My flight school had pretty strict standards on airspeeds/power settings, so the check instructors didn't really like me doing that. I simply explained that I was PIC and I felt it would not be the safest to rush, and that was my decision. They usually appreciate that more than simply sticking to the published power/speed settings.

If none of that works, ask to go to a hold for a bit to get yourself organized. Works especially well if you can do you're hold at the IAF, so when you're ready, you just head right in.

Good luck! Remember, rushing things (especially in IMC) is how people screw up and die. Nothing wrong with just slowing down and working through it (just don't slow down so much you stall or run our of gas! :) )
 
I always try to set distance triggers. In a SE plane you can usually get the ATIS 50nm out. So there's the first trigger...50nm I get ATIS. I don't bother setting up approaches before then as its the ATIS that tells me which approach I'm going to get.

I'd start there and suggest you stop setting up the approach for the next airport on the ground. That way you get practice (1 extra leg) setting up in the air.

So at 50nm the ball starts rolling. Get ATIS...check. Set up approach...GPS, navs, ADF, courses if able, DME Hold if needed, all of it that I can. Check. Now I brief the approach. If using Jepps it's easy, just read the strip. NOS? I have no idea. I think I'd declare an emergency if I had to shoot a real approach with NOS charts...but I digress.

I also write a simple diagram at this point on my yolk clip blocking out the missed. Real simple and just the first things. Like an arrow pointing up then 800', an arrow bending right and 2600' D SOMFX. That's it. Climb straight to 800 feet then climbing right turn direct SOMFX to 2,600 feet and hold. I can figure out the hold on the way...plus it's fresh anyway as I've already briefed it.

Along the way from cruise figure descent profile. This is the biggest consistent shortcoming I run into. You follow ATC but you should always know if you are above or below optimal descent profile. I use 30 miles for every 10K of altitude to lose. (that's 15 for every 5K too). For rate use your ground speed times 5. Easy math is GS add a zero and divide by 2. If you're 120 ofer the ground add a zero (1200) and divide by 2, or 600 fpm to stay on path.

Good luck and have fun.
 
When brief? As soon as I'm in a position to know which is the likely approach in use. That's pretty far out on the typical cross country flight; at least as early as I can get the ATIS. Busier airspace? I might even ask TRACON or Center which approach is in use at my destination.

The problem occurs when you don't have much time, like the way it happens all the time in training (but rarely in the real world). Then you need a systematic way to brief the killer items quickly.

The good news is that Jepp spend a few years and mucho bucks creating the Briefing Strip. Did such a good job, NACO "borrowed" it. So the briefing flow is there.

With one exception: I like to start with the Plan View (both when I have time and when there's a rush) as early as I can. I find getting the big picture and my location with respect to it gives me the context that makes all the rest make sense.

Take the SAC VOR 2. One you're probably familiar with but I've never seen before. I'm heading there from the northwest and am expecting the full approach. Very first thing I see is that I can anticipate flying to the VOR, making a direct entry into the HILO to an outbound of 196°. I also see that there's only one NAV frequency I'll need for the IAF, FAF and missed hold.

That's a lot of big picture information that makes all of the entries, twisting and turning make sense but takes less than 10 seconds to view and digest.
 
If you don't have much time to set up an approach ask yourself "where am I going now and what altitude do I need to be at when I get there". Often times this is an easy question to answer and once set up for this you have plenty of time to figure out the rest.
 
In addition to the above, before you reach the FAF, you want the following memorized:
  • MDA/DH
  • MAP identification (time, DME, station passage, DH)
  • Initial heading for missed
  • Initial altitude for missed.
The objective is that after the FAF (or joining the final segment off the PT) you do not ever want to have to look down at the chart until you're up and climbing away on the missed.
 
To answer the question from someone who also struggled with this, I suspect the answer is simpler than you want it to be and not location or distance-based at all.

"As soon as you can."

I also wanted to build it into the flow or pick a place where I "always" did it, but I learned that ATC can throw things at you right during that time you wanted to use to brief, or the Instructor or DPE might have a comment or question, etc. Any number of things.

If you had three minutes of quieter flight time prior to your "I want to brief here" point in your head, and you wasted it relaxing, then when something happens at your point you've chosen for yourself, you can't get those three minutes back.

Don't squander "free" time single-pilot IFR. Use it. If you're not doing something -- you're setting yourself up to fall behind later. Always busy.

So the answer is, especially close-in doing "laps" between airports in the training environment with no significant cruise time between approaches....

Checklist items completed for whatever segment you're on, airplane trimmed and configured, start reviewing the approach. If you get interrupted, start again.

Until you have it in your head, brief.

Now. :)

(Agreed with others, 50nm out usually works for the ATIS but I'll typically have it tuned before then in Com 2 and check it once in a while until it's strong enough to copy. Then set up the iPad with the appropriate plate and look at the plate.)

Don't wait for a particular time. Just get it done. Preferably long before the FAF and best before the IAF. A final glance at the critical "these will kill me" items just outside the FAF to ensure your memory is right and that the missed is memorized.

Here's another way to put that. Do you have a particular time you look at your VFR chart? No. You look when you need information. Look anytime at your IFR chart, but add in that you want to memorize certain items. Do it anytime you're not busy because IFR you can get busy in a big hurry if the plan changes.

In your case, anytime before the next vector if you're being vectored. Now is good. ;)

I mentioned this in my thread on my IR also, but I was slow at reading the plates. I sat in a room and pulled up plates and briefed them to myself slowly at first, then started giving myself time limits as to how long I could look at it before looking back up at the panel. Practice. See how much of a plate you can memorize and say out loud without looking after three glances of three seconds each. Stuff like that. Customize to your speed and tastes. :)
 
"As soon as possible" is a good answer. Since you're still training they're coming at you quick since the CFII is trying to get in as many approaches as practical in the allotted time. That will change once you get through the ride, but the ride will be that way also so you do have to get a flow down.

I found it helped to get the plane slowed down and stabilized early on which bought me more time to get everything lined up. Of course there will be times when that won't work, especially if you have ATC on you to keep the speed up. I don't usually fly into airports where that is a problem.

Hang in there and you'll get there.
 
I brief the approach as soon as I know what it is. I get the chart, set up the nav systems, and then read through the brief. Even if I'm alone, I read the thing aloud. Right before the FAF, I cover the four things Ron mentions:
How low can I go?
When/Where do I miss?
What's my initial altitude?
What's my initial heading?

And I add any peculiarites for the airplane beyond CRAM-CLIMB-CLEAN-COOL-CALL
 
Frequencys (use the audio panel selector as a checklist.)
Course
Minimums
Missed

Do it on the downwind on a checkride and prior to decent in real life...

again the audio panel is the best appch checklist ever read left to right
 
Last edited:
TMetzinger said:
I brief the approach as soon as I know what it is. I get the chart, set up the nav systems, and then read through the brief. Even if I'm alone, I read the thing aloud. Right before the FAF, I cover the four things Ron mentions:
How low can I go?
When/Where do I miss?
What's my initial altitude?
What's my initial heading?

And I add any peculiarites for the airplane beyond CRAM-CLIMB-CLEAN-COOL-CALL
Click to expand...

And the approach.

See the approach I posted earlier this week in the approaches thread where if you go missed before the FAF, you'd better not CLIMB. ;)
 
+1 for throttling back and/or asking for a delaying vector. Simple easy fix.
 
Thank you everyone for the suggestions and tips. This is what I needed. I go up tomorrow and will give these a try.
 
One other suggestion I would have is to have your CFII space out the approaches more thus giving you more time to get it together. The downside is you're not going to get as much done in as short a time.

When I go out now to practice approaches with my safety pilot I sit down in the morning and look at the winds around the area. Then I sit down and pick out approaches that will route from one to the other very nicely including a couple missed approaches. Then I go into foreflight and create a binder called practice approaches and put the plates in it for the approaches I've chosen in order so they are right there and ready to go.

This usually allows me to get in a half dozen approaches in three hours or less.
 
sacbluesman said:
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for my IR but there a couple things that I'm getting caught up on that is making me fall behind the plane.

My instructor is getting on me to brief the approach. I'm having somewhat of a hard time determining the best time go over it. I guess it could be different if your doing pilot own nav or vectored approach :dunno: When do you guys complete this? Couple miles from the IAF? On the downwind leg of a vectored approach? This is one thing that isn't sinking in for me.

Here is another issue I'm facing. Between taxiing out and finishing the runup, I will get navs/comms all setup. I get the Garmin loaded up for the destination and load up the approach to be done. All is smooth with no rush and no stress. Takeoff, tower hands me off, contact approach controller...no big deal. Enroute, I get established and complete the approach we usually go missed and go elsewhere. At this point, I fall behind. Point A to B goes fairly well but having to setup for the next approach and airport is overloading me. I'm trying to rush and figure out what to do next and my brain just isn't keeping up. Keep in mind where I'm training we have several airports in a very close area so setup time has to be done relatively quickly...at least in the eyes of a rookie :)

I don't know if all this makes sense. I'm just looking for advice or get examples of the flows ya'll are using and when (distance/position) exactly you start doing these. Maybe I just need to chill out and not rush. I suppose slowing down and thinking things out could be faster in the end.

Thanks
Click to expand...

You'll get through it just fine.

Just don't become like some of the Cirrus pilots I know whose flow runs thusly: PROC, scroll, enter, enter, AP engage, wake me up when we land!

(PS: I fly a Cirrus, and while I use everything the amazing Perspective and AP has to offer, I fly those damn approaches!)
 
Ahh ok. I believe I recall Jesse saying something along the lines of "I have a technique I use with students for the radios, but you seem to have a system that works for you so keep doing it." Heh.

I get what you're saying about using the buttons or faces of the radios themselves as a memory tool though. That'd work.
 
crash7 said:
+1 for throttling back and/or asking for a delaying vector. Simple easy fix.
Click to expand...

absolutely..

just remember water is good for you but you can drown in it

A delay vector here and there good.....one on every approach not so good....you want to demonstrate that your in control.. but not chronically behind.
 
Top left to bottom right. I was taught to slow the airplane down to the appropriate speed 3 minutes or 3 miles (whichever comes first) to the IAF.
 
Arbiter419 said:
Top left to bottom right. I was taught to slow the airplane down to the appropriate speed 3 minutes or 3 miles (whichever comes first) to the IAF.
Click to expand...
At PIC, we teach 3 minutes or five miles before the IAF for configuring the aircraft for the approach (gear, flaps, speed, etc), but the difference is minor. Once you get your rating and some real experience you may choose to delay that, but for the training and the practical test, it works very well. Examiners routinely compliment the applicant for doing that to give themselves more time and "front load" the speed/configuration changes to a point in the approach where they have fewer other things to do.
 
Also, one thing I was taught, and YMMV, once you briefed the approach and have set, and if necessary, identified navaids, your comms, your entry and approach courses, etc. leave them be. No need to fiddle around with items you have already setup and confirmed.

Just fly the plane.
 
I use and teach "WIRE the approach":

W - Weather...ATIS, AWOS, etc.
I - Instruments...altimeter, DG aligned, etc.
R - Radios set...nav and comme frequencies set and identified, OBS set, audio panel set
E - Environment....initial altitudes, step downs, MDA/DH, missed appr procedures
 
EppyGA said:
One other suggestion I would have is to have your CFII space out the approaches more thus giving you more time to get it together. The downside is you're not going to get as much done in as short a time.
Click to expand...
It's not just a time thing. At least a small part of switching approaches multiple times in a short span of time is to cause a bit of overload. It's simulating a scenario in which things change rapidly. Although not often, it happens. On my instrument checkride, there was a runway change at the destination and I to brief and set up for a different approach to another runway.
 
sacbluesman said:
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for my IR but there a couple things that I'm getting caught up on that is making me fall behind the plane.

My instructor is getting on me to brief the approach. I'm having somewhat of a hard time determining the best time go over it. I guess it could be different if your doing pilot own nav or vectored approach :dunno: When do you guys complete this? Couple miles from the IAF? On the downwind leg of a vectored approach? This is one thing that isn't sinking in for me.

Here is another issue I'm facing. Between taxiing out and finishing the runup, I will get navs/comms all setup. I get the Garmin loaded up for the destination and load up the approach to be done. All is smooth with no rush and no stress. Takeoff, tower hands me off, contact approach controller...no big deal. Enroute, I get established and complete the approach we usually go missed and go elsewhere. At this point, I fall behind. Point A to B goes fairly well but having to setup for the next approach and airport is overloading me. I'm trying to rush and figure out what to do next and my brain just isn't keeping up. Keep in mind where I'm training we have several airports in a very close area so setup time has to be done relatively quickly...at least in the eyes of a rookie :)

I don't know if all this makes sense. I'm just looking for advice or get examples of the flows ya'll are using and when (distance/position) exactly you start doing these. Maybe I just need to chill out and not rush. I suppose slowing down and thinking things out could be faster in the end.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Oh my gosh, I'm glad I found this thread, I thought I was the only one. Thanks for writing and asking what I was afraid to ask.
 
LDJones said:
I use and teach "WIRE the approach":

W - Weather...ATIS, AWOS, etc.
I - Instruments...altimeter, DG aligned, etc.
R - Radios set...nav and comme frequencies set and identified, OBS set, audio panel set
E - Environment....initial altitudes, step downs, MDA/DH, missed appr procedures
Click to expand...

I was taught WIRE too. I also use GUMPS prior to FAF and again short final when applying flaps. The only change in GUMPS is the U. Since my gear is fixed I use U for things U should know, as in the missed approach procedure, an extra beief.

For the OP, multiple rapid fire approaches is drinking from the fire hose but once on an IFR flight you will be getting into a flow. The multiple approach blitz will teach you to think ahead and process info faster. I have learned there is a method to the CFII's madness.
 
GMascelli said:
I was taught WIRE too. I also use GUMPS prior to FAF and again short final when applying flaps. The only change in GUMPS is the U. Since my gear is fixed I use U for things U should know, as in the missed approach procedure, an extra beief.

For the OP, multiple rapid fire approaches is drinking from the fire hose but once on an IFR flight you will be getting into a flow. The multiple approach blitz will teach you to think ahead and process info faster. I have learned there is a method to the CFII's madness.
Click to expand...

Also taught GUMPS, also have fixed gear, and have used U for checking under. For my plane that includes cowl flaps, tank selection(always on both), altimeters, radios, etc. Never was taught WIRE, but like that two.

Doug
 
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