Breaking in a single cylinder?

[flyingcheesehead]

Hi folks,

I've broken in two engines on club airplanes, so I'm familiar with the whys and hows when you have a new engine or a new top end...

However, the Mooney just got out of annual and I had some work done on only one cylinder (New exhaust valve, reground valve seat, re-honed cylinder walls, new rings). I'm trying to understand how I should run the engine to get this cylinder re-broken in and for how long.

In talking with the chief A&P, I've learned that some things are different - For example, plain old ashless dispersant oil instead of mineral. However, while he said to "run it hard for a bit" I'm trying to determine to what extent I need to do so.

So... How many hours should I run it with break-in procedures?
Anything I should do differently than a normal break-in?
When should I get the oil and filter changed next?
How long do I need to run it before I can get a compression check that represents the true condition of the cylinder?

Thanks much!

 

[FORANE]

As I understand, one cylinder or all cylinders are the same. Use mineral oil, keep it below 7k msl or so, run hard / high percent rated power, etc until oil consumption stabilizes. I have heard change oil in 10 hours then 15 hours or so. Plenty to google for more.

 

[N801BH]

As I understand, one cylinder or all cylinders are the same. Use mineral oil, keep it below 7k msl or so, run hard / high percent rated power, etc until oil consumption stabilizes. I have heard change oil in 10 hours then 15 hours or so. Plenty to google for more.

+1.....

Don't baby it.... Work the motor hard..

 

[Ted]

You should treat it exactly as if you did a complete top overhaul. Oil, power settings, etc. Follow whatever the recommendations from Continental are on breaking in an engine/new cylinders.

I'm not sure why the A&P thinks that some things should be different. What's different is that the other cylinders don't need to be broken in (at least in theory).

 

[bbchien]

If you have a 6 probe CHT, watch for the cyl. to no longer be as hot. At that point it's "broken in".

 

[Tom-D]

http://www.eci.aero/pdf/breakininstructions.pdf

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Hi folks,

I've broken in two engines on club airplanes, so I'm familiar with the whys and hows when you have a new engine or a new top end...

However, the Mooney just got out of annual and I had some work done on only one cylinder (New exhaust valve, reground valve seat, re-honed cylinder walls, new rings). I'm trying to understand how I should run the engine to get this cylinder re-broken in and for how long.

In talking with the chief A&P, I've learned that some things are different - For example, plain old ashless dispersant oil instead of mineral. However, while he said to "run it hard for a bit" I'm trying to determine to what extent I need to do so.

So... How many hours should I run it with break-in procedures?
Anything I should do differently than a normal break-in?
When should I get the oil and filter changed next?
How long do I need to run it before I can get a compression check that represents the true condition of the cylinder?

Thanks much!

Generally that means until the rings set. You can tell this as the oil usage goes down. It might be harder to detect in with a single cylinder but 3-4 hrs should do it unless there are unforeseen difficulties.

 

[Tom-D]

Generally that means until the rings set. You can tell this as the oil usage goes down. It might be harder to detect in with a single cylinder but 3-4 hrs should do it unless there are unforeseen difficulties.

With the advent of the new era cylinders, the rings will be seated and the oil usage stabilized by the time you reach pattern altitude.

the last 4 sets of ECI 0-200/300 cylinders I've installed, we drained the 20W50 Phillips thru a lint free rag into a 5 gallon bucket, noted the assembly debris, poured the oil back into the engine and ran 25 hours with out using a qt.

it is a common old wives tale that you need mineral oil as the break in lubricant. any good 20W50 oil can be used if it does not comply with the requirements of an "EP" oil.

If your engine does not require a "EP" oil, you shouldn't be running one anyway.

Lots of OLD WIVES TALES out there about breaking in a new cylinder.

 

[EdFred]

With the advent of the new era cylinders, the rings will be seated and the oil usage stabilized by the time you reach pattern altitude.

Textbook answer. Reality (as I am currently breaking in cylinders) is not in line with this answer.

 

[Ted]

Textbook answer. Reality (as I am currently breaking in cylinders) is not in line with this answer.

My experience also does not reflect Tom's recommendation.

However, I will say the ECi cylinders on the 310 seemed to break in much quicker than the factory Lycoming's on the Aztec. So ECi might do something different.

 

[Tom-D]

Textbook answer. Reality (as I am currently breaking in cylinders) is not in line with this answer.

Ed, How many types of oil are we allowed to run in aviation ?

 

[EdFred]

Ed, How many types of oil are we allowed to run in aviation ?

Depends who you ask.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

With the advent of the new era cylinders, the rings will be seated and the oil usage stabilized by the time you reach pattern altitude.

the last 4 sets of ECI 0-200/300 cylinders I've installed, we drained the 20W50 Phillips thru a lint free rag into a 5 gallon bucket, noted the assembly debris, poured the oil back into the engine and ran 25 hours with out using a qt.

it is a common old wives tale that you need mineral oil as the break in lubricant. any good 20W50 oil can be used if it does not comply with the requirements of an "EP" oil.

If your engine does not require a "EP" oil, you shouldn't be running one anyway.

Lots of OLD WIVES TALES out there about breaking in a new cylinder.

I used the Phillips XC for my break in.

 

[Tom-D]

Depends who you ask.

wrong again Ed, there are only two types of oil, lipid or mineral. It's simply a matter of what additive package is added.

 

[EdFred]

wrong again Ed, there are only two types of oil, lipid or mineral. It's simply a matter of what additive package is added.

So does the grocery store (generally) only sell one type of milk? I consider skim, 1/2%, 1%, 2%, whole, chocolate, and strawberry all different types. Like I said, depends who you ask.

 

[Tom-D]

So does the grocery store (generally) only sell one type of milk? I consider skim, 1/2%, 1%, 2%, whole, chocolate, and strawberry all different types. Like I said, depends who you ask.

There ya go,, off topic,, this ain't milk.

 

[Frank]

wrong again Ed, there are only two types of oil, lipid or mineral. It's simply a matter of what additive package is added.

I thought the two types were bituminous or paraffin based. I remember something about oils from Pennsylvania and Ohio not being all that compatible with oils from Texas. Of course this info was from the late 1960s, and may not have been accurate. I do know that we were cautioned to try to use all of the same brand oil used for the oil change to replenish between oil changes.

 

[Tom-D]

I thought the two types were bituminous or paraffin based. I remember something about oils from Pennsylvania and Ohio not being all that compatible with oils from Texas. Of course this info was from the late 1960s, and may not have been accurate. I do know that we were cautioned to try to use all of the same brand oil used for the oil change to replenish between oil changes.

Both of those are mineral in nature because the basically come out of the ground, bituminous other wise known as coal oil, the stuff your grand ma used to cook with on her old oil stove. Paraffin is also a mineral oil for the same reason, it comes out of the ground.

Lipids, are plant extracts, such as castor bean oils, corn oil, and algae oils. etc. as we all know Castol oil is a very good lubricant.

simple put there are two basic type of oil derived from where they are obtained.

 

[Frank]

Both of those are mineral in nature because the basically come out of the ground, bituminous other wise known as coal oil, the stuff your grand ma used to cook with on her old oil stove. Paraffin is also a mineral oil for the same reason, it comes out of the ground.

Lipids, are plant extracts, such as castor bean oils, corn oil, and algae oils. etc. as we all know Castol oil is a very good lubricant.

simple put there are two basic type of oil derived from where they are obtained.

Thanks. Does that mean that it is now ok to mix paraffins and bitumens?

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks. Does that mean that it is now ok to mix paraffins and bitumens?

Can you even find bitumens?

bi·tu·men
/biˈt(y)o͞omən/
Noun
A black viscous mixture of hydrocarbons obtained naturally or as a residue from petroleum distillation.
Synonyms
asphalt - pitch - tar

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

[Frank]

Maybe I have gotten them mixed up. I certainly remember being cautioned about something involving mixing the oils from Pennsylvania and surrounding states with the oils from Texas and surrounding states.

 

[Frank]

It has been a long time, but I am sure I am not talking about the difference between mineral oils and vegetable based oils, such as Castor oil.

 

[Frank]

I think this may be it: http://www.oil150.com/essays/2008/04/wax-and-asphalt-crude-oils

 

[Tom-D]

I think this may be it: http://www.oil150.com/essays/2008/04/wax-and-asphalt-crude-oils

that article says it right out front, they both come from the ground as crude.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Both of those are mineral in nature because the basically come out of the ground, bituminous other wise known as coal oil, the stuff your grand ma used to cook with on her old oil stove. Paraffin is also a mineral oil for the same reason, it comes out of the ground.

Lipids, are plant extracts, such as castor bean oils, corn oil, and algae oils. etc. as we all know Castol oil is a very good lubricant.

simple put there are two basic type of oil derived from where they are obtained.

Tom- Who uses castor oil (and other plant oils) anymore besides Old Rhinebeck, others flying real WWI engines, and people who fly model planes? I know some of the model plane fuels use something else- the exhaust smells very different. Both the examples I mentioned lose the oil and it goes out the exhaust.

With modern chemistry, we take whatever oil we have and convert it to what we need anymore.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom- Who uses castor oil (and other plant oils) anymore besides Old Rhinebeck, others flying real WWI engines, and people who fly model planes? I know some of the model plane fuels use something else- the exhaust smells very different. Both the examples I mentioned lose the oil and it goes out the exhaust.

With modern chemistry, we take whatever oil we have and convert it to what we need anymore.

This company once was a pure lipid oil I don't know if they still have a product that is.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/ifra...igrp=Castrol+GB-E&nipkw=Castrol&niadv=castrol

They say they have a blend So, I think they must have some castor bean oil in it.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Can you even find bitumens?

bi·tu·men
/biˈt(y)o͞omən/
Noun
A black viscous mixture of hydrocarbons obtained naturally or as a residue from petroleum distillation.
Synonyms
asphalt - pitch - tar

Are we talking about the same thing?

You sure can find bitumens. I was working with Chevron and got some last year. One of the few times I could present the work done with a customer at an American Chemical Society meeting. Poster below.
http://www.isco.com/WebProductFiles...nds_from_Bitumens_by_Flash_Chromatography.pdf

 

[Frank]

I think it is possible to get lipid based, paraffin based or bitumen based oils, and possibly even some synthetic that has somehow avoided discussion. I suggest that unless you know for sure that two oils play nicely with each other, that the simplest course is to stick to one brand of oil between changes, especially during break in.

 

[PaulMillner]

This company once was a pure lipid oil I don't know if they still have a product that is.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/ifra...igrp=Castrol+GB-E&nipkw=Castrol&niadv=castrol

They say they have a blend So, I think they must have some castor bean oil in it.

>> They say they have a blend So, I think they must have some castor bean oil in it.

I don't see those words on the page you reference, but the common meaning today for a blend would be of mineral oils and synthetic oil. AFAIK there's no commercial use of plant oils (lipids) for engine lubricants.

The mention of Pennsylvania versus Texas oils is a 1950's reference to paraffinic versus naphthenic oils... The paraffins have superior qualities, and have won that contest for all but low performance, high consumption oils like railroad wheel bearing grease...

When I worked in a Texas refinery in the 1980's, we completed the transition to paraffinic oils, and shut down our 1929 (!) naphthenic oil unit.

Paul

 

[PaulMillner]

With the advent of the new era cylinders, the rings will be seated and the oil usage stabilized by the time you reach pattern altitude.

the last 4 sets of ECI 0-200/300 cylinders I've installed, we drained the 20W50 Phillips thru a lint free rag into a 5 gallon bucket, noted the assembly debris, poured the oil back into the engine and ran 25 hours with out using a qt.

it is a common old wives tale that you need mineral oil as the break in lubricant. any good 20W50 oil can be used if it does not comply with the requirements of an "EP" oil.

If your engine does not require a "EP" oil, you shouldn't be running one anyway.

Lots of OLD WIVES TALES out there about breaking in a new cylinder.

>> any good 20W50 oil can be used

That's kind of misleading... Phillips 20-50 AD is fine. Exxon Elite 20-50 is semi-synthetic and thus NOT recommended by ECi's bulletin. Shell 15-50 is also not suggested, as it too is semi-synthetic.

The latest thinking is that AD oil is fine, in fact preferred, but AVOID any oil like Shell 100W that has the Lycoming additive... And avoid any semi-synthetic like the Shell or Exxon multiweights.

Paul

 

[N801BH]

Back 40 years ago during my motoX days we ran nothing but Castrol R castor bean oil.... If you mixed it with a petro based oil it would turn that mixture into a substance similar to jelly.... Can you say coagulation ???

Ps.. I still run one of my chain saws on the bean oil and I ABSOLUTELY love the smell... Every fall that smell reminds me of the good ol days.....

 

[Cap'n Jack]

>> They say they have a blend So, I think they must have some castor bean oil in it.

I don't see those words on the page you reference, but the common meaning today for a blend would be of mineral oils and synthetic oil. AFAIK there's no commercial use of plant oils (lipids) for engine lubricants.

The mention of Pennsylvania versus Texas oils is a 1950's reference to paraffinic versus naphthenic oils... The paraffins have superior qualities, and have won that contest for all but low performance, high consumption oils like railroad wheel bearing grease...

When I worked in a Texas refinery in the 1980's, we completed the transition to paraffinic oils, and shut down our 1929 (!) naphthenic oil unit.

Paul

I was surprised to see that Castrol still makes castor-based engine oils:
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014107&contentId=7027099#7094388
Scroll to the bottom to see the castor based oils.

 

[Tom-D]

>> any good 20W50 oil can be used

That's kind of misleading... Phillips 20-50 AD is fine. Exxon Elite 20-50 is semi-synthetic and thus NOT recommended by ECi's bulletin. Shell 15-50 is also not suggested, as it too is semi-synthetic.

The latest thinking is that AD oil is fine, in fact preferred, but AVOID any oil like Shell 100W that has the Lycoming additive... And avoid any semi-synthetic like the Shell or Exxon multiweights.

Paul

Are we now talking break in oils or any old oil used after the break in period.

any oil conforming to Lycoming's AD is in fact a EP oil and not good for break in . Phillips 20W50 is not an EP oil.

Exon elite and Shell 15W50 are both EP oils and can be used in the ECI cylinders after break in period.

 

[3393RP]

Back 40 years ago during my motoX days we ran nothing but Castrol R castor bean oil.... If you mixed it with a petro based oil it would turn that mixture into a substance similar to jelly.... Can you say coagulation ???

Ps.. I still run one of my chain saws on the bean oil and I ABSOLUTELY love the smell... Every fall that smell reminds me of the good ol days.....

Yessir...running my Maico with castor oil produced an unforgettable smell, a perfume of dirt, noise, speed, and a bit of fear. That was one fast bike!