Bo crash Alton Bay (B18)

Given the risks, I am puzzled by the popularity of that place. I assume it's mostly for the bragging rights.
Our insurance premium just went up a bit again.
 
^^^^ Yup ^^^^ Stall it that high above any runway and Lucy is going to "have some 'splainin' to do".
 
Dave Theisen said:
That had nothing to do with ice. Land short in a lot of places and that’s going to happen.
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trying to get a Bo onto a 2800ft glare ice runway... braking action NIL... did not help
It was reported that the day prior, some aircraft trying to taxi with no nose wheel steering and only differential braking (Cirrus) had to have wing walkers.
 
BillTIZ said:
trying to get a Bo onto a 2800ft glare ice runway... braking action NIL... did not help
It was reported that the day prior, some aircraft trying to taxi with no nose wheel steering and only differential braking (Cirrus) had to have wing walkers.
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Yup, he may have had all of those problems after landing on the runway, but he never got there.
 
Bo's fly in there all the time with no issue. 3,000 feet is a lot of runway. You could get a reasonable simulation on pavement by landing and not touching brakes. If you don't comfortably turn off by 3,000 feet, you have some work to do on landing speeds and using aerodynamic braking.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ouch.

Now the trick is how to get the plane out of there before the ice melts. :oops:
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Not to mention the cost of fixing and increased insurance premiums. Hope the guy was past 70, if so, I can see an insurance cancellation on his horizon.
 
Rcmutz said:
Not to mention the cost of fixing and increased insurance premiums. Hope the guy was past 70, if so, I can see an insurance cancellation on his horizon.
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This is actually a club plane out of Nashua, NH.

Aircraft | New Hampshire Flying Association

N313RJ 1980 F33A Beech Bonanza The F33A Bonanza is a 4-seat single-engine high-performance piston aircraft. The Beech Bonanza is still being produced by Beechcraft, and has been in continuous production longer than any general aviation aircraft. We like the Bonanza primarily for its field-tested...
www.nhflying.com
 
AdamB said:
This is actually a club plane out of Nashua, NH.

Aircraft | New Hampshire Flying Association

N313RJ 1980 F33A Beech Bonanza The F33A Bonanza is a 4-seat single-engine high-performance piston aircraft. The Beech Bonanza is still being produced by Beechcraft, and has been in continuous production longer than any general aviation aircraft. We like the Bonanza primarily for its field-tested...
www.nhflying.com
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New engine July 2022. That's a kick in the knackers
 
I believe being a flying club plane it should of never been allowed at that runway ( lake).
Maybe it wasn't allowed? Now will it fly out or be disassembled and taken out on a wrecker?
 
TCABM said:
That’s a club operating rules and insurance decision. Our partnership has formal operating rules; neither those rules nor our insurance policy prohibit off airport operations.
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Depends on the policy, I suppose.

It is, however, an FAA certified runway.
So if that’s the only stipulation on the policy, it’s
Likely covered.
 
Looks like the Delta landing. I didn't see a flare and he looked fast but what do I know, I flay a little P28 180
 
Looks like he was so worried about landing too long and not being able to stop that he overdid it and cut it too short.

He got it stopped, though... :rolleyes:
 
TCABM said:
That’s a club operating rules and insurance decision. Our partnership has formal operating rules; neither those rules nor our insurance policy prohibit off airport operations.
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How many partners? Couple or 20 or more. So you be ok with partners landing a A36 off airport in say a cattle pasture. Think about all the other club members that Now don’t have a A36 to fly. Think of all the planned trips reserved for faimly travel.

I believe it was poor choice to take a club plane into that temporary airport and now burdens the club members.

You own the plane then you’re free to do as you want. Rental club plane no.

For all we know the insurance company may very well total the airplane Then what?
 
Groundpounder said:
That crash has almost nothing to do with the runway being non paved. It has everything to do with getting too slow and hitting an obstacle short of the threshold.
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I think it's fair to say that the runway surface/conditions could have affected the pilot's decision making on approach. Maybe significantly, maybe not. But when landing on an ice runway, the surface is probably one of the main things on a pilot's mind, especially if they've never done it before. Not that that should be the case, just that it's very possible, if not probable.
 
bonefishpete said:
How many partners? Couple or 20 or more. So you be ok with partners landing a A36 off airport in say a cattle pasture. Think about all the other club members that Now don’t have a A36 to fly. Think of all the planned trips reserved for faimly travel.

I believe it was poor choice to take a club plane into that temporary airport and now burdens the club members.

You own the plane then you’re free to do as you want. Rental club plane no.
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That’s certainly an opinion on the subject. Each partnership / club’s operating rules should be reflective of the club’s risk tolerance and each member/partner. Since I don’t know anything about that club, I’ll withhold judgement.

As for my partnership, every time one of our planes is touched, we run the risk of it being rendered not airworthy, which is a burden. We carry insurance to make us whole in the event something like this happens.
 
bonefishpete said:
I believe it was poor choice to take a club plane into that temporary airport and now burdens the club members.

You own the plane then you’re free to do as you want. Rental club plane no.
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It's a club based in NH, where Alton bay is located. I would be very surprised if there wasn't an explicit policy either prohibiting or allowing flight there. The club required 350 hours minimum and had an additional check out for the Bo. My guess is that it's ok in the club, as the plane was also at Alton Bay Feb 2nd.
 
Hang 4 said:
It's a club based in NH, where Alton bay is located. I would be very surprised if there wasn't an explicit policy either prohibiting or allowing flight there. The club required 350 hours minimum and had an additional check out for the Bo. My guess is that it's ok in the club, as the plane was also at Alton Bay Feb 2nd.
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Well then the club owns it. Seems to me poor decision.
 
Years ago I belonged to a club. One of the local aircraft owners finally decided to put his pride and joy into the club. Within the first two weeks, a guy stalled it into the trees on a go around and wrecked it. (Fortunately all three occupants were uninjured). The owner was devastated.
 
TCABM said:
That can be said anytime a club aircraft is put out of commission due to pilot error.
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I understand but the A36 is a big plane for a rental club. I’ve seen videos of that airport and planes skidding and sliding hitting snow banks. Also the danger to parked planes from out of control planes. Juan had the grass fly in where a MAULE took out a Cessna 180 parked. Just have to try to limit losses.
 
Then don't belong to that club and don't fly to Alton Bay. The whole point of a club is to have like minded individuals who want to share the cost (and risk) of owning a plane. The club has a pretty rigorous requirements for pilots and getting checked out in the Bo. Clubs can be for whoever and whatever they want. As an aside, their other plane (Piper Archer 2) seems to go to Alton Bay pretty regularly.
 
bonefishpete said:
How many partners? Couple or 20 or more. So you be ok with partners landing a A36 off airport in say a cattle pasture. Think about all the other club members that Now don’t have a A36 to fly. Think of all the planned trips reserved for faimly travel.

I believe it was poor choice to take a club plane into that temporary airport and now burdens the club members.
Click to expand...
If you have too many rules, well, think of all the club members that can't have fun in THEIR airplane because YOU don't think it's OK.

I was on the BOD of a club for 14 years, and yes we had a plane totaled. People flew other planes for a while... Same as when someone geared one up on a 5000' paved runway on a sunny day. Same as when major Mx was unexpectedly required. $#!+ happens, you deal with it, you move on.

We had VERY few rules beyond the FARs and the very limited insurance requirements. We trusted pilots' judgement and encouraged them to get training and stay proficient in the sorts of operations they were going to undertake. At one point, one member made a big deal of another member's taking one of the planes over Lake Michigan and how we needed to have a rule against that to protect our members. I was at the airport with him, and he was still complaining that we shouldn't allow something so unsafe, when the other guy returned from his trip and exited the airplane wearing a drysuit. Sudden silence.

bonefishpete said:
For all we know the insurance company may very well total the airplane Then what?
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Then the insurance company writes the club a check and the club goes and buys another Bonanza. When this happened to us, we ended up with an even better airplane than we started with.

Now, if you underinsure or don't make sure your club members follow insurance requirements, that's on you (the club).
Dave Theisen said:
Years ago I belonged to a club. One of the local aircraft owners finally decided to put his pride and joy into the club. Within the first two weeks, a guy stalled it into the trees on a go around and wrecked it. (Fortunately all three occupants were uninjured). The owner was devastated.
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The first rule of aircraft ownership is "Thou Shalt Not Put Thy Pride And Joy On Leaseback."

Even if it doesn't get wrecked, it will get flown by people who have less invested in it than you do. It will get worn faster, you'll have to deal with the extra wear and tear of other people getting checked out in it at a minimum.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If you have too many rules, well, think of all the club members that can't have fun in THEIR airplane because YOU don't think it's OK.

I was on the BOD of a club for 14 years, and yes we had a plane totaled. People flew other planes for a while... Same as when someone geared one up on a 5000' paved runway on a sunny day. Same as when major Mx was unexpectedly required. $#!+ happens, you deal with it, you move on.

We had VERY few rules beyond the FARs and the very limited insurance requirements. We trusted pilots' judgement and encouraged them to get training and stay proficient in the sorts of operations they were going to undertake. At one point, one member made a big deal of another member's taking one of the planes over Lake Michigan and how we needed to have a rule against that to protect our members. I was at the airport with him, and he was still complaining that we shouldn't allow something so unsafe, when the other guy returned from his trip and exited the airplane wearing a drysuit. Sudden silence.


Then the insurance company writes the club a check and the club goes and buys another Bonanza. When this happened to us, we ended up with an even better airplane than we started with.

Now, if you underinsure or don't make sure your club members follow insurance requirements, that's on you (the club).

The first rule of aircraft ownership is "Thou Shalt Not Put Thy Pride And Joy On Leaseback."

Even if it doesn't get wrecked, it will get flown by people who have less invested in it than you do. It will get worn faster, you'll have to deal with the extra wear and tear of other people getting checked out in it at a minimum.
Click to expand...
Invested or inverted?
IMG_0193.jpeg
 
Hang 4 said:
It's a club based in NH, where Alton bay is located. I would be very surprised if there wasn't an explicit policy either prohibiting or allowing flight there. The club required 350 hours minimum and had an additional check out for the Bo. My guess is that it's ok in the club, as the plane was also at Alton Bay Feb 2nd.
Click to expand...
Most flight schools restrict operations at Alton Bay. The group I rent from requires 3000ft paved, with explicit rules about certain "airports" including "no Alton Bay operations". Shorter runways can be approved on request but it is specific approval to that pilot, not a blanket approval for all renters.
 
bonefishpete said:
How many partners? Couple or 20 or more. So you be ok with partners landing a A36 off airport in say a cattle pasture. Think about all the other club members that Now don’t have a A36 to fly. Think of all the planned trips reserved for faimly travel.

I believe it was poor choice to take a club plane into that temporary airport and now burdens the club members.

You own the plane then you’re free to do as you want. Rental club plane no.

For all we know the insurance company may very well total the airplane Then what?
Click to expand...
Why so judgmental? I believe it's a bad idea to be a fractional owner of a club airplane. I believe it's better to be a sole owner. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I believe I'll have another beer, with a dram of whisky.
 
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