BFR question

drgwentzel

drgwentzel

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
284
Location
NJ
Display Name
Display name:
Kobra
My last BFR was October 2006. Since then I received a multi-engine rating 8-08 and a IPC on 11-08. I currently have 34 hours in CFI training since 9-1-08.

Do still need a BFR or does the Multi rating fix that?

Gene
 
drgwentzel said:
My last BFR was October 2006. Since then I received a multi-engine rating 8-08 and a IPC on 11-08. I currently have 34 hours in CFI training since 9-1-08.

Do still need a BFR or does the Multi rating fix that?

Gene
Click to expand...

You know, I was GOING to answer this for you. But when I got to the part about CFI training, I think I will let you find it yourself.

Hint. Start with 61.56.

I see someone already answered it for you. I am sorry, but as a potential CFI, I am kind of disappointed that you couldn't find that on your own.
 
Geez, Scott. I was at LEAST going to make him read the section. Why do we feel compelled to spoon feed this stuff?
 
drgwentzel said:
My last BFR was October 2006. Since then I received a multi-engine rating 8-08 and a IPC on 11-08. I currently have 34 hours in CFI training since 9-1-08.

Do still need a BFR or does the Multi rating fix that?

Gene
Click to expand...


Gene,

There's no minimum hours for "CFI training" and you have more than I did when I passed my checkride.

I gotta agree with the message that YOU need to know this stuff and if not, where to find it.

You'll be asked this question as a CFI (should that occur) soon.

Take this as a kick in the pants to get your feces consolidated and approach the CFI rating as a trust, not another ticket to punch, and you'll be good to go.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You know, I was GOING to answer this for you. But when I got to the part about CFI training, I think I will let you find it yourself.

Hint. Start with 61.56.

I see someone already answered it for you. I am sorry, but as a potential CFI, I am kind of disappointed that you couldn't find that on your own.
Click to expand...

Yes...you are correct I should be able to answer this on my own. I did look at the regs before the post, but I was confused by 61.56d. I wasn't sure if a Multi checkride was the same thing as a "pilot proficiecy check". I also was thinking that my IPC was for instrument flight and that probably didn't apply as a BFR because the "proficiencey check" was conducted by a CFII and not an "examiner".

I would not have been confused if the regulation was written, "...passed a pilot proficiency checkride conducted by an FAA examiner or FAA designated examiner..."

Gene
 
drgwentzel said:
I would not have been confused if the regulation was written, "...passed a pilot proficiency checkride conducted by an FAA examiner or FAA designated examiner..."
Click to expand...

Reading the REST of the sentence should have gone a long way toward clearing that up for you.
 
Wow Scott , That's just plain un-neighborly....
 
drgwentzel said:
Yes...you are correct I should be able to answer this on my own. I did look at the regs before the post, but I was confused by 61.56d. I wasn't sure if a Multi checkride was the same thing as a "pilot proficiency check". I also was thinking that my IPC was for instrument flight and that probably didn't apply as a BFR because the "proficiency check" was conducted by a CFII and not an "examiner".

I would not have been confused if the regulation was written, "...passed a pilot proficiency checkride conducted by an FAA examiner or FAA designated examiner..."

Gene
Click to expand...
Gene,

Take it a step further in your discovery as it will come up at some point in the future. If a multi-engine practical test satisfies the requirements of a Flight Review, it would seemingly make sense that a CFI practical test would also substitute for a Flight Review. Right? Nope. The practical test for a "pilot certificate" or "rating" test for pilot proficiency.

Since you have to know it for your CFI training, determine what the practical test for an instructor certificate is testing for. It's not "pilot proficiency."

And, when you determine the answer you can also find out there's a way around it but not directly specified in the rules. Just some food for thought. It could come up during your CFI practical as well.
 
welcome to PoA, i dont think i've seen you post before. where do you fly? (besides "in the sky")
 
I was recently told that there is no longer a BFR ... ;)
 
tonycondon said:
welcome to PoA, i dont think i've seen you post before. where do you fly? (besides "in the sky")
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome. I fly out of N14 in Lumberton, NJ. I've posted here a few times as the nickname Kobra or under drgwentzel.

Gene
 
gkainz said:
I was recently told that there is no longer a BFR ... ;)
Click to expand...
You know, I've never really understood that. It is a flight review that's due every two years, hence biennially. A Biennial Flight Review. How is that not a BFR, even if it's not an "FAA Sanctioned (TM)" TLA?
 
FWIW, in the FAA Chief Counsel's opinion (which effectively means "that's the way it is"), 61.56(d) says it's not just a "pilot proficiency check," it's a "pilot proficiency check...for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege." Since a CFI practical test is for a flight instructor certificate/rating, not a pilot certificate/rating, it doesn't count under 61.56(d).

BTW, this is probably a section which someone should petition to change from "pilot proficiency check...for a pilot or flight instructor certificate, rating, or operating privilege," since the CFI PTS already says you must demonstrate Commercial Pilot proficiency on a CFI practical test.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, this is probably a section which someone should petition to change from "pilot proficiency check...for a pilot or flight instructor certificate, rating, or operating privilege," since the CFI PTS already says you must demonstrate Commercial Pilot proficiency on a CFI practical test.
Click to expand...
This hasn't made sense to me, either. It should count the same.
 
On the CFI flight portion of the practical test, a lot of time is spent instructing your examiner and therefore is considered to not be an evaluation of your flying skills but rather your teaching skills. Hence the FAA does NOT consider this to be a Flight Review.

As far as the IPC check, this can be incorporated into a Flight Review if you agree with the instructor beforehand.
 
comancheflight said:
On the CFI flight portion of the practical test, a lot of time is spent instructing your examiner and therefore is considered to not be an evaluation of your flying skills but rather your teaching skills. Hence the FAA does NOT consider this to be a Flight Review.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that point has been beaten to death ad nauseum here. HOWEVER, during the oral portion, are you not "teaching" the material required to be covered in a flight review? Also, I sincerely doubt the Examiner will issue the CFI ticket if the flight proficiency is lacking.

Yeah, the CFI ticket is PRIMARILY about teaching, but it is also about DOING.

As far as the IPC check, this can be incorporated into a Flight Review if you agree with the instructor beforehand.
Click to expand...

Makes for quite a workout, though.
 
It should be noted that the CFI PTS specifically requires demonstration of pilot proficiency at the commercial level in all the flight areas/tasks. However, the FAA's argument on this matter is that as the regulation is worded, you only get flight review credit for "a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege..." Since a CFI practical test is not a test for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege, it doesn't count for flight review credit. Thus, it has nothing to do with the content or manner of the CFI practical test, just the words in 61.56(d). The way to fix this is to get 61.56(d) reworded to include a CFI practical test, with the justification that on such a test you must demonstrate pilot proficiency at the commercial level in a representative set of areas/tasks. Perhaps it's time to petition the FAA IAW Part 11 of the FAR's.

It is also interesting to note that while renewal of a Flight Instructor certificate by any means listed in 61.197 (including FIRC, practical test, or activity) gives you credit for the ground portion of a flight review; the CFI must then still get someone to sign the flight portion after at least a one-hour flight.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Ad Nauseum
Click to expand...
I always thought that the only real issue with this was that, before Legal finally issued its interpretation, FSDOS were going every which way.

That was a problem. A pilot who lived in a FSDO area where they thought it counted (and relied on that), gets into an incident in a FSDO region where it didn't. Uh oh! It might get untied with good representation but a non-current pilot gettting into an incident is not a good place from which to start.

With the interpretation and everyone on the same page as to what it means, there's really no big deal. Never mind the DPE or Inspector doing the ride. The "senior" CFI who endorses for the CFI practical should have no problem adding "flight review" to the rest of the endorsements.

Just to continue the ad nauseum part, :sleep: I think there is some regulatory justification for the separation. The PTS is not regulatory - meaning only that it does not go through the notice-comment period that substantive regs do. =Today= the CFI PTS requires performance of maneuvers by the applicant. But the PTS can be changed and however the FAA feels like it and =tomorrow= a CFI applicant could conceivably go through the practical teaching each maneuver without actually performing any (although I've heard some folks say that even the current PTS doesn't really require the applicant to perform any of the maneuvers).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top