Best way to study logbook endorsements?

[Vance Breese]

I took my gyroplane instructor practical test 8/31 and after eleven and a half hours of oral (over two days) left out one of the endorsements (61.107) required to go from no experience to private pilot and was failed. I thought it was covered by (61.103).
I am going by my notes so please understand I may be incorrect about the reason for the failure.
My pink slip lists “task L The applicant did not exhibit knowledge of logbook endorsements (first failure).”
I plan to retest as soon as practical.
Is there a textbook that lists endorsements required to go from a status to a rating?
I have the NAFI Guide to FAA Endorsements and feel that is close.
I have advisory circular 61-65E and I find it confusing.
I have the 2016 FAR/AIM and the answers are a bit scattered for me.
I plan to make up lists if I can’t find a book.
I would like to be able to answer questions like; does an ATP applying for an add-on gyroplane rating need to have a solo sign off even though he is not a student pilot? I answered this one correctly but it was a guess.

 

[bradg33]

after eleven and a half hours of oral (over two days) left out one of the endorsements (61.107) required to go from no experience to private pilot and was failed.

ELEVEN AND A HALF HOURS? WTF? Are you taking this ride with a DPE or with an FAA ASI? That's beyond unreasonable. Under those circumstances, I'd bet you weren't really failed for not knowing a logbook endorsement. Something else was going on; either the examiner was just looking for ANY reason to fail you, or there were other factors in play.

 

[Vance Breese]

Log book endorsements are a special emphasis area of the instructor practical tests standards.
The designated pilot examiner made it clear that my only area of deficiency was that I did not exhibit knowledge of log book endorsements and that is what he wrote on my pink slip.
This DPE is one of two DPEs in the country who can do gyroplane instructor practical tests.
If I retest in 60 days I should have a very short oral.
The FAA does not have someone available for a gyroplane instructor practical test.
This same examiner took 9 hours for the oral for an instructor friend of mine.
I asked a friend of mine at the local FSDO who used to do instructor practical tests for the FAA and he said a 9 hour oral was not unusual for an initial instructor practical test.

 

[bradg33]

Log book endorsements are a special emphasis area of the instructor practical tests standards.
The designated pilot examiner made it clear that my only area of deficiency was that I did not exhibit knowledge of log book endorsements and that is what he wrote on my pink slip.
This DPE is one of two DPEs in the country who can do gyroplane instructor practical tests.
If I retest in 60 days I should have a very short oral.
The FAA does not have someone available for a gyroplane instructor practical test.
This same examiner took 9 hours for the oral for an instructor friend of mine.
I asked a friend of mine at the local FSDO who used to do instructor practical tests for the FAA and he said a 9 hour oral was not unusual for an initial instructor practical test.

5,6,7 or 8 hour orals for initial CFIs are pretty normal. It's a big leap to 11.5, even from 9. I still maintain that if he drug you along for 11.5 hours and failed you over not knowing a single logbook endorsement, something else was afoot regardless of what he told you (or you had missed a lot of other things he let slide, and this was straw/camel's back).

Pretty nuts about there only being 2 DPEs in the COUNTRY for gyroplane CFI practicals, though. Must be a REALLY small world.

 

[OkieAviator]

Log book endorsements are a special emphasis area of the instructor practical tests standards.

Agree that it's important to understand endorsements, but should be something you can look up if you have questions.

An 11 hour oral sounds ridicules and probably stems from them trying to test you on THEIR current knowledge, thinking that you need to be on par with them to pass. That amount of time seems a bit silly to me.

 

[Vance Breese]

I did look it up and still missed the one endorsement.
That is why I am trying to find the best study materials so I can exhibit a knowledge of log book endorsements during the retest.

 

[James331]

Mine was like 8hrs, anywho i just photo copied the endorsements out of the back of a logbook and kept going over them, no biggie.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Are the endorsements in your logbook correct? Seems like that would be a good place to start...

 

[Vance Breese]

Are the endorsements in your logbook correct? Seems like that would be a good place to start...

A good place to start; thank you.
It does not cover add on ratings, sport pilot, and recreational pilot.
A lot of the questions I had right were about add on, sport pilot and recreational pilot.
I just had a brain fade when it came to private.

 

[Art VanDelay]

You should have gone to Ron Menzie. Terry is just a bit full of himself.

 

[LDJones]

I'm sorry, but 11.5 hours is completely insane. While endorsements are important, they're not a life and death matter. Craziness.

 

[Vance Breese]

You should have gone to Ron Menzie. Terry is just a bit full of himself.

In my opinion I have flown with some gyroplane CFIs that should not be instructing.
Terry does not want to add a CFI who does not meet the practical test standards.
I would like to see gyroplanes have a better safety record and better instructors would be a good start.
An instructor who does not make the proper logbook endorsements creates problems for both the designated examiner and the student as the practical test should not proceed without the correct endorsements.

 

[Vance Breese]

I'm sorry, but 11.5 hours is completely insane. While endorsements are important, they're not a life and death matter. Craziness.

I am looking for the best way to study for the test.
I don’t feel there is value in questioning the judgement of the DPE.
In my opinion log book endorsements are a special emphasis area of the practical test standards because it causes problems for both the student and the DPE if the endorsements are not correct.
Some log book endorsements are a gate in the flight training; solo sign off for instance.
I have read of more than one accident where someone was signed off to solo when all the steps had not been completed leading very directly to the accident.

 

[dmspilot]

One of the best ways to study for anything is to ask yourself questions and see if you can answer them.

 

[bradg33]

I don’t feel there is value in questioning the judgement of the DPE.

There is always value in questioning the judgment of a person in a place of authority.

 

[Vance Breese]

One of the best ways to study for anything is to ask yourself questions and see if you can answer them.

Thank you, I do that a lot.
I don’t know what I don’t know so I may not ask myself the correct question.
I am would like to have a list of the endorsements required for different situations.
I find some of them confusing; like does an ATP need a solo sign off for a gyroplane add on.
I have scheduled a couple of hours of ground training with a CFI that is very prepared.
He gave me a mock practical test before I failed the real one and it helped a lot; just not enough.

 

[LDJones]

I am looking for the best way to study for the test.
I don’t feel there is value in questioning the judgement of the DPE.
In my opinion log book endorsements are a special emphasis area of the practical test standards because it causes problems for both the student and the DPE if the endorsements are not correct.
Some log book endorsements are a gate in the flight training; solo sign off for instance.
I have read of more than one accident where someone was signed off to solo when all the steps had not been completed leading very directly to the accident.

I bet you knew what was required for a solo sign-off. In 35 years of instructing I haven't run across an issue over endorsements. When a particular endorsement was overlooked for a checkride the DPE noted it, it was added to the logbook and the checkride went forward as scheduled.

But I commend you on a positive attitude. I stand by my assessment that an 11.5 oral is over the top. Did he charge by the hour or flat fee?

 

[Vance Breese]

There is always value in questioning the judgment of a person in a place of authority.

I feel there is not much value in questioning the judgement of someone in authority if I don’t have the power to change the outcome.
I simply want to meet the practical standards as he interprets them so I can instruct in gyroplanes and share the joy I have found.

 

[bradg33]

I simply want to meet the practical standards as he interprets them...

I'm struggling with this one, as if this were an airplane DPE, I'd suggest you tell him to pound sand with his absurd 11.5 hour oral and failing you over a trivial issue (it really is a trivial issue) based on his interpretation of the PTS. The point of the PTS is to take most of the interpretation out of check-ride. And the spirit of the PTS, generally, means that a single deficiency shouldn't result in a failure.

But, in your particular circumstance, with only 2 available DPEs nationwide, I'm at a bit of a loss.

 

[Vance Breese]

I bet you knew what was required for a solo sign-off. In 35 years of instructing I haven't run across an issue over endorsements. When a particular endorsement was overlooked for a checkride the DPE noted it, it was added to the logbook and the checkride went forward as scheduled.

But I commend you on a positive attitude. I stand by my assessment that an 11.5 oral is over the top. Did he charge by the hour or flat fee?

It was a flat fee.

I did not find 11.5 hours of oral to be a positive experience.
Part of what took so long is that I have a poor memory and don’t want to make a mistake so I look everything up and read it from whatever source I am using (FAR/AIM, Instructor handbook, Rotorcraft Flying Handbook, etc.).
I will do the same thing with students.
I sometimes find the way the question is worded confusing.
At one point a created a lesson plan and organized the teaching aids for a much more expansive agenda that that which was requested.
Because each mock student was a stranger to me I didn’t know what they didn’t know or the reasons for their transgressions. I probably overcompensated for my ignorance of the student’s history.
I found it challenging preparing a lesson plan quickly. When I have practiced teaching I took my time the night before arranging the lesson plan and teaching aids. It was an iterative process.
I also expected the student to do their homework and my mock students in the practical test weren’t good at that. I would like to have rescheduled the lesson until the student successfully completed their homework rather than starting from scratch to teach the most basic things.

 

[Vance Breese]

I'm struggling with this one, as if this were an airplane DPE, I'd suggest you tell him to pound sand with his absurd 11.5 hour oral and failing you over a trivial issue (it really is a trivial issue) based on his interpretation of the PTS. The point of the PTS is to take most of the interpretation out of check-ride. And the spirit of the PTS, generally, means that a single deficiency shouldn't result in a failure.

But, in your particular circumstance, with only 2 available DPEs nationwide, I'm at a bit of a loss.

I tried to shop for an easier softer way but the other DPE has refused to administer my instructor practical test because of my traumatic brain injury and being blind in one eye.
I don’t want to get in a fight with either DPE because they might take their resentment out on my students when I send them to the DPE for the student’s practical test.
The gyroplane world is a very small segment of aviation.
There is a third DPE but he is required to be a DPE for two years before he can administer a instructor test and he is new.
I feel I studied harder and learned more because I knew what I was up against with this DPE.
He had administered my commercial practical test and was my initial primary gyroplane instructor.
I think of him as a friend and mentor.
That didn’t make the oral or the preparation for the practical test fun.

 

[dmspilot]

I look everything up and read it

Everything? That might be the real reason you failed.

And your real students don't want to pay you to hear you read.

More practice speaking extemporaneously to a wall or whiteboard would help.

I found it challenging preparing a lesson plan quickly.

Did you not bring lesson plans with you to the checkride?

I would like to have rescheduled the lesson until the student successfully completed their homework rather than starting from scratch to teach the most basic things.

What if the student does their homework and still has trouble understanding the topic? And believe me, this is the case with most students.

 

[Vance Breese]

Everything? That might be the real reason you failed.

And your real students don't want to pay you to hear you read.

More practice speaking extemporaneously to a wall or whiteboard would help.

Did you not bring lesson plans with you to the checkride?



What if the student does their homework and still has trouble understanding the topic? And believe me, this is the case with most students.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.
It helps me to think about useful things.
If I had a real student I would show him how to find the information rather than read the answer.
I had lesson plans.
This was very scenario based test and the scenarios didn’t fit any of my lesson plans.
For example: Bob, who is preparing for his commercial gyroplane practical test has shown a tendency to inadvertently enter high rates of descent at slow air speed. Plan a lesson.
I had a lesson to teach about slow flight and high rates of descent recognition and recovery that is part of learning blocks to Private Pilot.
I felt this needed to be taught to commercial standards and find out the reason for inadvertently entering the high rate of descent.
There are many takeoff accidents caused by this very thing so I felt it required a student specific approach to address his specific challenge.
I don’t have a problem explaining the part of the reading the student doesn’t understand. When he doesn’t understand any of it I feel it takes a lot of time to fix the understanding.
I understand that the mock students were concept challenged to see if I could teach them and it was probably time well spent.

 

[ja_user]

Make a cheat sheet for all the endorsements, it will be most helpful once you're teaching. If you pm me your email I will send you and example... No warranty though...

11hrs is insane, but you might as well finish with him

 

[dmspilot]

If I had a real student I would show him how to find the information rather than read the answer.

You have to be an authority on the subject matter and not refer to a book for everything, or refer the student to a book every time he or she has a question.

For example: Bob, who is preparing for his commercial gyroplane practical test has shown a tendency to inadvertently enter high rates of descent at slow air speed. Plan a lesson.

What part did you have trouble with? Maybe you could post your plan and we could critique it.

 

[Vance Breese]

Make a cheat sheet for all the endorsements, it will be most helpful once you're teaching. If you pm me your email I will send you and example... No warranty though...

11hrs is insane, but you might as well finish with him

PM sent.
The NAFI guide comes close but doesn't cover the oddball stuff,

 

[Vance Breese]

You have to be an authority on the subject matter and not refer to a book for everything, or refer the student to a book every time he or she has a question.



What part did you have trouble with? Maybe you could post your plan and we could critique it.

I want to be very careful to not give incorrect information.

I have attached the lesson plan as a word document. I don't know if it will work.

 

[bradg33]

I want to be very careful to not give incorrect information.
.

That's an admirable goal, but as a CFI you need to be both an authority AND confident. Looking everything up so that you're "careful" does not display much confidence.

To be brutally honest, reading all of your posts leads me to believe you do not have a lot of, or enough, confidence in your knowledge. For me, that's one of the most important things a CFI has to possess. Confidence inspires trust, and trust is necessary for your students to really learn from you. If you're not confident, they'll pick up on it. If they don't think you're confident, they won't trust you (whether consciously or not). If they don't trust you, they won't learn from you like they need to.

Looking up 20% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably ok. Looking up 80% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably not OK.

 

[Vance Breese]

That's an admirable goal, but as a CFI you need to be both an authority AND confident. Looking everything up so that you're "careful" does not display much confidence.

To be brutally honest, reading all of your posts leads me to believe you do not have a lot of, or enough, confidence in your knowledge. For me, that's one of the most important things a CFI has to possess. Confidence inspires trust, and trust is necessary for your students to really learn from you. If you're not confident, they'll pick up on it. If they don't think you're confident, they won't trust you (whether consciously or not). If they don't trust you, they won't learn from you like they need to.

Looking up 20% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably ok. Looking up 80% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably not OK.

I am grateful for your advice and you are welcome to your opinion.
I am confident in my communication skills and ability to teach concepts.
I taught motorcycle road racing for many years long ago and often referred to text and calculations to teach concepts.
There was also a lot of demonstration involved just as there is in flight training.
I never approached it as an authority.
I find asking questions has more value than making statements.
I have been practicing teaching people to fly a gyroplane for the last six months and I find I can usually have someone with no gyroplane flying experience fly all the ground reference maneuvers to private PTS, manage ground communication, understand the value of lists and do a good preflight with two hours of ground instruction and two hours to three hours of flight training.
I am organized, prepared and work to stay on schedule.
The DPE complimented me several times on my preparation for the instructor practical test.
If a student doesn’t like my style I would prefer they found a different gyroplane instructor because I don’t know how to be different than I am.

 

[MikeELP]

That's an admirable goal, but as a CFI you need to be both an authority AND confident. Looking everything up so that you're "careful" does not display much confidence.

To be brutally honest, reading all of your posts leads me to believe you do not have a lot of, or enough, confidence in your knowledge. For me, that's one of the most important things a CFI has to possess. Confidence inspires trust, and trust is necessary for your students to really learn from you. If you're not confident, they'll pick up on it. If they don't think you're confident, they won't trust you (whether consciously or not). If they don't trust you, they won't learn from you like they need to.

Looking up 20% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably ok. Looking up 80% of the stuff as a "green" CFI? Probably not OK.

That sounds right to me.

 

[MikeELP]

..If a student doesn’t like my style I would prefer they found a different gyroplane instructor because I don’t know how to be different than I am.

It is very possible that the examiner picked up on that.

A good instructor knows how to adapt their training technique to the student. Unlike group or classroom teaching, flight instruction is very one-on-one and as a teacher you need to be able to make adjustments to "your style" into something that the student accepts and likes.

You have to be able to "re-invent" yourself as a teacher with each new student. Sometimes it ain't easy.

 

[upstateny]

During my CFI checkride, the examiner played "dumb student" and said he didn't understand. I tried explaining to him three times with a different angle to the problem each time. He kept saying, "I don't get it." So I said, then let's go back to the airport and discuss this rather than wasting your time and money up here. Evidently, that was the answer he was looking for because he replied, "Oh! I get it now!"

The cockpit is the worst classroom in the world. Don't try to teach them anything you haven't taught them on the ground. By the time they climb in, they should know what to expect. If something comes up in flight that is new, I'll briefly address it and make a note to go over it in more detail during the post-flight debrief.

 

[Vance Breese]

It is very possible that the examiner picked up on that.

A good instructor knows how to adapt their training technique to the student. Unlike group or classroom teaching, flight instruction is very one-on-one and as a teacher you need to be able to make adjustments to "your style" into something that the student accepts and likes.

You have to be able to "re-invent" yourself as a teacher with each new student. Sometimes it ain't easy.

The examiner had exactly the same attitude when he was my primary instructor.

More than one student became frustrated with his methodical approach and sought instruction elsewhere.

He only had the one personality and it has not changed over the years.

 

[Vance Breese]

During my CFI checkride, the examiner played "dumb student" and said he didn't understand. I tried explaining to him three times with a different angle to the problem each time. He kept saying, "I don't get it." So I said, then let's go back to the airport and discuss this rather than wasting your time and money up here. Evidently, that was the answer he was looking for because he replied, "Oh! I get it now!"

The cockpit is the worst classroom in the world. Don't try to teach them anything you haven't taught them on the ground. By the time they climb in, they should know what to expect. If something comes up in flight that is new, I'll briefly address it and make a note to go over it in more detail during the post-flight debrief.

Thank you for the helpful suggestion.

I agree that the cockpit is a difficult learning environment.

In my practice instruction I found that the more the student knows about his environment the more quickly he learns.

I don’t want to be one of those CFIs that basically says; “let’s go fly and learn” without ground instruction.

I understand the value of demonstrating a maneuver. I feel it works best when the student is comfortable with his environment and I feel the ground instruction and preflight preparation has a lot to do with his level of comfort.

I also found a lot of value in a detailed post flight debriefing.

 

[MikeELP]

The examiner had exactly the same attitude when he was my primary instructor.

Well since you then obviously have a prior relationship with this examiner, why not just call him and ask him why he REALLY failed you?

One slip up with endorsements would not be enough although that may be what he used to issue the pink slip.

More to the story here.

 

[MikeELP]

More than one student became frustrated with his methodical approach and sought instruction elsewhere.

He only had the one personality and it has not changed over the years.

My personality does not change either, only my instructing style...and that can change several times during a day depending on how many students I work with.

That said, I know of a few ex-military guys instructing that are so rigid that they have one way and only one way of doing things.

 

[Everskyward]

I find some of them confusing; like does an ATP need a solo sign off for a gyroplane add on.

The answer to that question is yes.

I hesitate to post a link to a CC interpretation but...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2015/beard - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf

Section 61.63 contains the requirements for pilots who hold a higher level pilot certificate and are seeking an additional category and/or class rating. For example, a pilot who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate must, among other things, complete the required training and aeronautical experience required for that rating. 14 C.F.R. § 61.63(b)(l). Generally, to meet the aeronautical experience requirements for a new category of aircraft, a pilot must accomplish solo flight time. Because the pilot does not hold the ratings necessary to act as pilot in command, a pilot must receive an endorsement for solo flight from an authorized instructor under 14 C.F.R. § 61.3 l(d). To receive that endorsement, a pilot must have received the training required under part 61 "appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown." 14 C.F.R. § 61.3l(d)(2). Unlike solo endorsements for student pilots,§ 61.3l(d) does not contain any time limitation for the endorsement.

If you can't find a source you like pertaining to required endorsements, perhaps you could compile one yourself? There couldn't be that many which relate to gyroplanes.

I agree with the others who say failing for not knowing one endorsement is nuts.

 

[Vance Breese]

Well since you then obviously have a prior relationship with this examiner, why not just call him and ask him why he REALLY failed you?

One slip up with endorsements would not be enough although that may be what he used to issue the pink slip.

More to the story here.

I had a long debrief with the DPE and I have no reason to believe the failure had anything to do with anything but what is on the pink slip.
He gave me a ride to drop off my rental car, a ride to my motel and picked me up at 5:00 am the next morning to take me to the airport. I consider him a friend and mentor.
He is very meticulous and wanted to check of each item on his complex test matrix. Eleven and a half hours is simply how long it took. This was the very end of the oral so my retest should have a very short oral. All items but the endorsements are checked off.
My friend who just became a CFI took nine hours with the same DPE and he is young and knows most of the answers from memory.
I can understand why my test took 28% longer.
I am trying to find the best way to study endorsements rather than imagine something about my oral and my failure.
I was hoping there was a book a little more complete than the NAFI guide.
I want to succeed on my next practical test and become a CFI using this DPE.

 

[Vance Breese]

The answer to that question is yes.

I hesitate to post a link to a CC interpretation but...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2015/beard - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf



If you can't find a source you like pertaining to required endorsements, perhaps you could compile one yourself? There couldn't be that many which relate to gyroplanes.

I agree with the others who say failing for not knowing one endorsement is nuts.

That was my guess on the question for exactly that reason.
I find the language confusing because the solo signoff is for a student pilot.
I realized that the person being tested in a practical test is the pilot in command.
I am not clear on if I need to have the pilot with an ATP rating take the pre-solo test and observe his abilities in the same way I would with a student. Fortunately that was not a question.

That is a good suggestion and I am planning on compiling a list of endorsements with what I feel is a more useful index and take a couple of hours of ground with a local fixed wing CFI.

I want to do what it takes to become a gyroplane CFI rather than be critical of the process or feel I have received a raw deal.
That is how I earned my SODA, my private and commercial gyroplane rating.
That is in part why I have not had a deviation in 1,700 hours of gyroplane time and have not had an incident or accident. I often fly in the Los Angeles basin and San Francisco bay area airspace.
Even the flight from Provo, Utah to Buckeye, Arizona, for the practical test had many regulatory and weather challenges as well as a small mechanical setback.

Thank you all for your help and concern, I am off to the airport with my wife to make repairs on our gyroplane so I can retest.

 

[Vance Breese]

My personality does not change either, only my instructing style...and that can change several times during a day depending on how many students I work with.

That said, I know of a few ex-military guys instructing that are so rigid that they have one way and only one way of doing things.

I agree that the content of the instruction needs to change based on the students background, experience and knowledge.
I will always be slow and methodical.
I feel it is my roll to teach about mitigating risk and quick answers or being in a hurry is not a way to do it.