"Best" airplane for 35k?

Last fall I bought a 1970 Mooney M20E in your price range. Mid time engine, 4000hrs on the airframe, Garmin GTN 650, HSI, autopilot, etc.....


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N2124v said:
Last fall I bought a 1970 Mooney M20E in your price range. Mid time engine, 4000hrs on the airframe, Garmin GTN 650, HSI, autopilot, etc.....
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I saw an M20E go for about what the OP is looking to spend (and missed out buying it!). Nice one too. Only think it lacked was a good seal on the tanks, though they were probably not leaking at the time. It can be done.
 
vfsit said:
Here is a Comanche 180...

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1959/Piper/Comanche+180/2150514.html

Little less power than its higher power Comanche brothers but also less fuel burn. I own a Comanche 250 and have a buddy with a 180. The 180 is a easily as good is you don't mind trading a bit less climb performance and top speed for less fuel burn.

Oh yeah.... and you can actually fit 4 adults in it comfortably which is something you can't do with a Mooney ;) (at least the ones in the OPs price range)
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That is a heckuva Comanche!
 
Would like to pick up a reasonably sound V35+ Bonanza and restore. Maybe "restore" isn't the best word - refurbish and modernize. Now I need to find one for 35K.


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josephbelt01 said:
Would like to pick up a reasonably sound V35+ Bonanza and restore. Maybe "restore" isn't the best word - refurbish and modernize. Now I need to find one for 35K.


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I can help you with that.
PM on the way!
 
docmirror said:
I can help you with that.

PM on the way!
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I'm renovating the house we just bought for 65K. I'll need to finish this project first or I'll be sleeping on the sofa. The good news is the wife is on board for an airplane afterwards. ;)


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josephbelt01 said:
I'm renovating the house we just bought for 65K. I'll need to finish this project first or I'll be sleeping on the sofa. The good news is the wife is on board for an airplane afterwards. ;)


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Cool. Congrats on that. House reno is fun too. Make it nice for her.
 
I found a Navion for 25k. It seems well equiped with a current annual, e185 engine, and a Gns 430. PM and I'll send you the info.
Not associated with seller.
 
Navion with the E185 is fairly underpowered. Best with the O-470, suitable with the E225, but fairly doggy with the 185. I've flown three of them, and on a hot day with two up and full fuel, I really didn't care for the labored takeoff. Pretty sure that's why it's at that price.
 
docmirror said:
Navion with the E185 is fairly underpowered. Best with the O-470, suitable with the E225, but fairly doggy with the 185. I've flown three of them, and on a hot day with two up and full fuel, I really didn't care for the labored takeoff. Pretty sure that's why it's at that price.
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I flew my E-185 powered -35 out to see a gorgeous Navion that has been completely restored. Glass panel and a 520 - maybe a 550. New paint. New interior. Even with all that power, the restrictions place me at least at the same speed as that Navion - but with only 185HP max.

But still, I wouldn't turn down a Navion. But support for the early Beeches is quite good. On my home field good ...

Like that Navion I went to see - some of the early Bonanzas have been upgraded and painted such that you would have to be a Beech guru to pick them out of a line up containing later mode (e.g. S35) Bonanzas.
 
Tmpendergrass said:
What does an Annual cost on an M20C?
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In theory, the same as any 4 banger complex airplane. In practicality, there's a lot of potentially expensive items in these aging airframes that make them more costly to maintain than the competition, dare I get tar and feathered by the mooniacs. The big ones are their propensity for corrosion due to internal tubular steel components, propensity for fuel leak due to gear/wing cavity seal interactions, and propensity to gear fold on the ground due to several potential points of failure (oversteered nose gear truss, worn J-bar socket, tired or lax-overseen gear pre-tension).

Mooniacs counter that provided a mooney savvy AP and an aggressive eye for these issues, the mx would not exceed that of the competition. And they'd be right. My counter to that is that anything that requires niche mx hands is undesirable on the mx front, especially if you don't have practical access to such hands in your home drone. At a J price point and performance, I can see the hassle. At a C price point and performance? Meh. An Arrow or Cardinal are superior overall choices to the C/E in the aggregate.

All that said, if the operating and mx costs are a sensitive issue and what drives the 35K price point in the first place, I'm still of the opinion that one should lean towards a non-complex airplane. Piper archer or warrior II. It doesn't get cheaper to own than that for a 3 seater with 400NM legs w/ reserves.
 
I'm a low time pilot. Do you think if I buy a plane for 35k and then learn on it that would be a better option then going to a flight school? So far both CFI's I chose took an airline job.

If I purchase a Piper, (Without retracts) could I just hire a CFI and learn at my own pace without having to worry if the plane is available?

I know I would have to get a professional to pre-inspect it but what could I look out for that could be potential deal breakers?
 
FloridaPilot said:
I'm a low time pilot. Do you think if I buy a plane for 35k and then learn on it that would be a better option then going to a flight school? So far both CFI's I chose took an airline job.

If I purchase a Piper, (Without retracts) could I just hire a CFI and learn at my own pace without having to worry if the plane is available?

I know I would have to get a professional to pre-inspect it but what could I look out for that could be potential deal breakers?
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Um - if you are a low time pilot, what new rating would you be working toward?

Are you a low time student pilot? If so, I bought a plane, hired a private CFI and did my private on my own schedule. It was better than any rental program if you can afford the up front cost of the plane.

Deal breakers on a simple Piper are pretty easy to see. Corrosion is the biggie. Other things would be firewall damage from landing, and over stress, and fatal internal engine issues.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I'm a low time pilot. Do you think if I buy a plane for 35k and then learn on it that would be a better option then going to a flight school? So far both CFI's I chose took an airline job.

If I purchase a Piper, (Without retracts) could I just hire a CFI and learn at my own pace without having to worry if the plane is available?

I know I would have to get a professional to pre-inspect it but what could I look out for that could be potential deal breakers?
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It's been my experience that it is almost always cheaper to rent.
No matter if it's boats, planes, condo's, farms, women, horses, or hanggliders....

Do your thang, then walk away free. Besides, we could all be hit by a bus tomorrow. Get your PPL, then buy. One thing at a time.

Only homes and cars don't seem to pencil out. And some will argue about the homes nowadays.
 
hindsight2020 said:
In theory, the same as any 4 banger complex airplane. In practicality, there's a lot of potentially expensive items in these aging airframes that make them more costly to maintain than the competition, dare I get tar and feathered by the mooniacs. The big ones are their propensity for corrosion due to internal tubular steel components, propensity for fuel leak due to gear/wing cavity seal interactions, and propensity to gear fold on the ground due to several potential points of failure (oversteered nose gear truss, worn J-bar socket, tired or lax-overseen gear pre-tension).

Mooniacs counter that provided a mooney savvy AP and an aggressive eye for these issues, the mx would not exceed that of the competition. And they'd be right. My counter to that is that anything that requires niche mx hands is undesirable on the mx front, especially if you don't have practical access to such hands in your home drone. At a J price point and performance, I can see the hassle. At a C price point and performance? Meh. An Arrow or Cardinal are superior overall choices to the C/E in the aggregate.

All that said, if the operating and mx costs are a sensitive issue and what drives the 35K price point in the first place, I'm still of the opinion that one should lean towards a non-complex airplane. Piper archer or warrior II. It doesn't get cheaper to own than that for a 3 seater with 400NM legs w/ reserves.
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I'm curious what your take is on an arrow......let's just say not one that has been beaten as a trainer........
 
txflyer said:
It's been my experience that it is almost always cheaper to rent.
No matter if it's boats, planes, condo's, farms, women, horses, or hanggliders....

Do your thang, then walk away free. Besides, we could all be hit by a bus tomorrow. Get your PPL, then buy. One thing at a time.

Only homes and cars don't seem to pencil out. And some will argue about the homes nowadays.
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This is especially true if you decide to fly a 172 or Archer,Arrow; for Mooneys you either join a club or partnership or buy the plane outright.
Decide what plane you want, then go from there.
 
docmirror said:
Um - if you are a low time pilot, what new rating would you be working toward?

Are you a low time student pilot? If so, I bought a plane, hired a private CFI and did my private on my own schedule. It was better than any rental program if you can afford the up front cost of the plane.

Deal breakers on a simple Piper are pretty easy to see. Corrosion is the biggie. Other things would be firewall damage from landing, and over stress, and fatal internal engine issues.
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Yes, low time student pilot (Hence my name). What kind of plane did you buy? I would consider renting but it has it's own challenges as well, (Trying to get a CONSISTENT CFI, Weather and a plane available was tougher then I thought).

txflyer said:
It's been my experience that it is almost always cheaper to rent.
No matter if it's boats, planes, condo's, farms, women, horses, or hanggliders....

Do your thang, then walk away free. Besides, we could all be hit by a bus tomorrow. Get your PPL, then buy. One thing at a time.

Only homes and cars don't seem to pencil out. And some will argue about the homes nowadays.
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Although renting women may be fun, IMO I get more satisfaction with the keeper that I have. With renting, other people had there hands on it daily and you could suffer the consequences of that.....same with airplanes. :)


With purchasing I could eliminate the problem of a airplane availability. I also just met a CFI that would work with me. I'm going to be an owner anyway why not start early? I always learned better by doing anyway!
 
FloridaPilot said:
Yes, low time student pilot (Hence my name). What kind of plane did you buy? I would consider renting but it has it's own challenges as well, (Trying to get a CONSISTENT CFI, Weather and a plane available was tougher then I thought).
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Well, I bought a 1970 Bellanca Citabria. I found my CFI first, and he and I went and found the right plane. Then I bought it, and we did our thing. I sold it for more than I paid for it, but I did put on a cylinder that was low, and I did a modest amount of fabric repair on the belly where the oil was ruining it from the inside.

It can work well, or it can be a nightmare. If you just want a spamcan, Piper 140 is the trick. Me? - if I had it to do over again I'd do the same. Get a simple TW plane and learn in that. You can find a Luscombe or Taylorcraft for $20k or less. If you learn in a $300k Cirrus, or you learn in a $17k Luscombe, the fact is - you get the same exact certificate, with the same exact privileges. Learning in the TW plane, with no autopilot or GPS, you'll be a better pilot in the long run.

Find a TW CFI. He'll be older, and usually not looking for an airline job anymore.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I bought a 1970 Bellanca Citabria. I found my CFI first, and he and I went and found the right plane. Then I bought it, and we did our thing. I sold it for more than I paid for it, but I did put on a cylinder that was low, and I did a modest amount of fabric repair on the belly where the oil was ruining it from the inside.

It can work well, or it can be a nightmare. If you just want a spamcan, Piper 140 is the trick. Me? - if I had it to do over again I'd do the same. Get a simple TW plane and learn in that. You can find a Luscombe or Taylorcraft for $20k or less. If you learn in a $300k Cirrus, or you learn in a $17k Luscombe, the fact is - you get the same exact certificate, with the same exact privileges. Learning in the TW plane, with no autopilot or GPS, you'll be a better pilot in the long run.

Find a TW CFI. He'll be older, and usually not looking for an airline job anymore.
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Sorry, I had to look up "1970 Bellanca Citabria". Nice looking planes though. Is it more dangerous flying in an older over 40 year old plane? Are you more likely to have an engine problem?

I noticed on this site people complained about the acquisition costs. What are those costs from?
 
FloridaPilot said:
Sorry, I had to look up "1970 Bellanca Citabria". Nice looking planes though. Is it more dangerous flying in an older over 40 year old plane? Are you more likely to have an engine problem?

I noticed on this site people complained about the acquisition costs. What are those costs from?
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Well, I guess things are all relative. A TW plane is more prone to landing problems, and damage, but rarely is it more dangerous than a similar trike plane. A ground loop in a TW plane rarely causes any injury except to the pride and pocketbook, they happen at very slow speeds. Now, if one wants to get down to the very detailed examination, I would say that the Citabria is a bit more dangerous because people do aerobatics in them. This can lead to excess stress, and in some cases higher failure rates. When you own your own plane, you have it inspected to your satisfaction and maintained to your level of security.

The engine is a standard Lycoming 4 cylinder fuel injected engine, with the only modification being an inverted oil pickup source for engine lubrication allowing about 1 minute of inverted flight. So, I would say no more prone to engine problems over any other 115/150HP Lycoming engine in your basic Piper.

The acquisition costs of most Citabria or Decathlon planes comes from the slightly higher value due to them being aerobatic. You can find a 7ECA for about $35k, and it will get you through your private license and if you take care of it, the plane should sell for near what you paid for it. Not much depreciation on a 40 year old airframe which is a benefit. Of course, if the engine is run out, or it has past damage that will affect value.

Sample plane: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1047973_Champion+7ECA+1968.html
 
eman1200 said:
I'm curious what your take is on an arrow......let's just say not one that has been beaten as a trainer........
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Well, judging by my avatar I'm obviously biased towards them.

I find them a reasonable choice and a great compromise that keeps me in the air with a mission that required better climb rate and useful load than my previous warrior II provided me. Simpleton Lyco 360 non-siamese mags, injected, 200hp and post '72 (mine's a 73) for the stretch. Critics bicker over 5-10 knots of cruise speed compared to mooneys and cardinals. Wah wah wah. The thing gives me 132-138 between 200# undergross all the way down to one hour of fuel and/or solo, on 9GPH. Averages out on a trip to 135 true on 9. And that's me who seldom washes the bugs and hangar dust from the damn thing. Flight tested 5 knots slower in all regimes for 8GPH. 4.7 to 5.3 hours endurance with VFR reserves for the 48gallons usable at 9gph-8gph. That's 550NM+ with a 10kt headwind (120 block time).

I obviously prefer the gear system as well. I find it simple, easy to maintain and reliable compared to cessna or mooney J-bar. It defaults to down in the event of loss of pump or significant hydraulic leak. Cessna can't say that. Mooneys, I'm not even gonna start again with the niche mx, OCD J-bar tuggin' rituals and ground handling needs to keep that thing from squatting on you.

Look, I think both the cardinal RG and mooney are superior "numbers" performers. In addition, the cardinal is an absolute dream of ingress/egress, pax comfort and visibility, on par cruise performance w/ a wider cabin. The mooney is top end efficient and has solid range, fastest of the class plus people probably consider them the sexiest of the three. But for those of us who value budget conscious choices, simplicity and access to widest and most commonplace support, the Arrow is the superior choice for the cruise speed given up. It is also the cheapest to acquire. At least that was my rationale for the choices I made in this particular aircraft ownership cycle.

Good luck in whatever you end up with.
 
hindsight2020 said:
,,,,It is also the cheapest to acquire......
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Thanks. However from what I'm seeing the acquisition costs are not cheaper, that's what's been bugging me. I feel like the mid to late 70s prices are easily just as much as a similar year mooney. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just what I've seen. I really like the current arrow I'm renting, decent speeds, easy flyer but I also really like my friends m20E. Anyways , I got time until I can pull the trigger on my own so we'll see.
 
eman1200 said:
Thanks. However from what I'm seeing the acquisition costs are not cheaper, that's what's been bugging me. I feel like the mid to late 70s prices are easily just as much as a similar year mooney. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just what I've seen. I really like the current arrow I'm renting, decent speeds, easy flyer but I also really like my friends m20E. Anyways , I got time until I can pull the trigger on my own so we'll see.
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Just FYI allegedly, the M20E has the same fuselage length as the M20C, while I'm not certain of the cabin dimensions, my instructor (Who owns an m20C) said that his interior space is quite a bit more cramped than even my short-body arrow. Incidentally, the short body arrow is 24'+ fuselage length and the M20C-E is 21'+ fuselage length. Everything I've read suggests the M20F is really the standout performer if you want 4 seats, but the M20F pricing moves up quick.

Overall, I tend to think the 200 Hp Arrow II is really best bang for my mission, but as the Rolling Stones said... If you're average trip is 3-4 hrs., that 200 HP arrow II just seems like a winner.
 
gov98 said:
Just FYI allegedly, the M20E has the same fuselage length as the M20C, while I'm not certain of the cabin dimensions, my instructor (Who owns an m20C) said that his interior space is quite a bit more cramped than even my short-body arrow. Incidentally, the short body arrow is 24'+ fuselage length and the M20C-E is 21'+ fuselage length. Everything I've read suggests the M20F is really the standout performer if you want 4 seats, but the M20F pricing moves up quick.

Overall, I tend to think the 200 Hp Arrow II is really best bang for my mission, but as the Rolling Stones said... If you're average trip is 3-4 hrs., that 200 HP arrow II just seems like a winner.
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I'd pick either Mooney over an Arrow any day. If you want Arrow speeds get a simpler Grumman Tiger. The M20C, and E have no leg room in the back, so its either for kids or double amputees. That is why the F commands such a premium. Still I'd rather have a C, or E over an Arrow.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I bought a 1970 Bellanca Citabria. I found my CFI first, and he and I went and found the right plane. Then I bought it, and we did our thing. I sold it for more than I paid for it, but I did put on a cylinder that was low, and I did a modest amount of fabric repair on the belly where the oil was ruining it from the inside.

It can work well, or it can be a nightmare. If you just want a spamcan, Piper 140 is the trick. Me? - if I had it to do over again I'd do the same. Get a simple TW plane and learn in that. You can find a Luscombe or Taylorcraft for $20k or less. If you learn in a $300k Cirrus, or you learn in a $17k Luscombe, the fact is - you get the same exact certificate, with the same exact privileges. Learning in the TW plane, with no autopilot or GPS, you'll be a better pilot in the long run.

Find a TW CFI. He'll be older, and usually not looking for an airline job anymore.
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Not guaranteed. He might be a young 30 something whippersnapper, too. :wink2:
 
Anthony said:
I'd pick either Mooney over an Arrow any day. If you want Arrow speeds get a simpler Grumman Tiger. The M20C, and E have no leg room in the back, so its either for kids or double amputees. That is why the F commands such a premium. Still I'd rather have a C, or E over an Arrow.
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I can count the number of times I've used the back seat of an airplane on the fingers of one hand. I wasn't about to shell out that kind of money for a long-bodied Mooney. Would've liked an M20E, but it wasn't in the cards. Yeah, they'r small inside. But I'm small outside, so it works out.

The potential partner I was interviewing yesterday has a real concern about the back seat. He's a beanstalk, and his daughter might get that way too. What I told him is that he might outgrow the Mooney in about 10 years, might. I told him he'd outgrow it in five if he and his Mrs. had a second kid. I further told him that if he wanted to acquire a long-bodied Mooney in the shape mine is in he'd be spending lots of money.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I obviously prefer the gear system as well. I find it simple, easy to maintain and reliable compared to cessna or mooney J-bar. It defaults to down in the event of loss of pump or significant hydraulic leak. Cessna can't say that. Mooneys, I'm not even gonna start again with the niche mx, OCD J-bar tuggin' rituals and ground handling needs to keep that thing from squatting on you.
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I'm not sure what this "niche mx" you're referring to is. I have a J-Bar on mine and there is no extra maintenance required. The mechanic checks to ensure it's in working order and not worn and doesn't need anything replaced, but that's about it. Early model Mooney's, including C models, also came with electric gear. There's pro's and con's to both. I've never had an issue with mine and as long as it's locked, it's perfectly fine.

hindsight2020 said:
But for those of us who value budget conscious choices, simplicity and access to widest and most commonplace support, the Arrow is the superior choice for the cruise speed given up. It is also the cheapest to acquire. At least that was my rationale for the choices I made in this particular aircraft ownership cycle.
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It's not like Mooney is a unique plane (in terms of parts and support). Parts are easy to find and chances are your mechanic of choice has likely worked on one at some point. Sure, there's mechanics who won't work on them, but I'd say that's probably a small number. As for the acquisition cost, I think that's all relative to what you're looking for. If you buy a solid plane from the start, the chances of needing major maintenance right away goes down.

gov98 said:
Just FYI allegedly, the M20E has the same fuselage length as the M20C, while I'm not certain of the cabin dimensions, my instructor (Who owns an m20C) said that his interior space is quite a bit more cramped than even my short-body arrow. Incidentally, the short body arrow is 24'+ fuselage length and the M20C-E is 21'+ fuselage length. Everything I've read suggests the M20F is really the standout performer if you want 4 seats, but the M20F pricing moves up quick.
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Correct, the M20E is a short bodied Mooney (like the C) with a 200HP fuel injected engine.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Not guaranteed. He might be a young 30 something whippersnapper, too. :wink2:
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If you want guarantees in life, don't enter aviation. :rolleyes:

OBTW, the average pilot age is well over the average citizen age - by a wide margin.
 
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